Prime in the Bayformers

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Jalen Frisby, Apr 16, 2019.

  1. hthrun

    hthrun Show accuracy's overrated

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    Yeah, but what did he SAY in those scenes? :) 
    Good posting.
    Also, people have to take into account it's a lot easier to demobilize a human that a Transformer. If you wound a human the right way they can't fight. With Transformers, they can often lose entire limbs and still pose a threat. They pretty much have to be killed to make sure they won't fight back.
    I don't know if it's possible to take one prisoner without constantly having a gun to their head like the Decepticons in DotM. And unlike humans who all have pretty much the same basic bodily abilities, Transformers are all different and could pose threats in ways nobody else knows, like hidden weapons.
    I think Prime was just driven too far after seeing how the humans were mutilating his friends...
     
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  2. Beastwarsfan95

    Beastwarsfan95 !sdrawkcab si egassem sihT

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    Sorry I took so long to reply, I wanted to wait until I could sit down and give this the proper reply it deserves. You mention Megatron being ‘a psycho’, but going off of what we have seen of his backstory, Megatron is painted less like a villain, and more like a Well-Intentioned-Extremist who genuinely wants what’s best for his home world and it’s people, but is too fanatical and has become blinded from his original, noble intentions. If you will note, aside from a single line by Ratchet (“To transform earth’s machines, and build a new army”) Megatron’s motivation is stated in every film to be about restoring Cybertron and/or his species.

    “Is the future of our race not worth a single human life?” (ROTF)

    “My master I have failed you, the Allspark is destroyed, and without it our race will perish.” (ROTF)

    “Cybertron, you are saved...” (dotm)

    “This is the victory I promised you so many years ago, where we re-build Cybertron together.” (DoTM)

    And what is it we see him do in Africa? Scavenge for food for hatchlings (baby transformers)! Given what we are presented with in the films, it could be argued the Autobots are the true villains, at least when it comes to saving Cybertron.

    “Intelligently” being the magic word here. I would love to debate the tactics of strategies of combat with you, but this isn’t the place. :p  In summery, aggression can lead to anger, and anger leads to you making mistakes. And mistakes? They get you killed. No weapon is more powerful than the mind. Fighting with reckless abandon is a swift way to ensure your ticket to the Afterspark.


    Because nothing says “honor” like stabbing someone in the back. Although I will give props for killing him after that “you see my face your life is done” line. (Don’t cut yourself on that edge, Lockdown)

    Seems to be a trend for Optimuses to see the Dinobots as little more than tools, remember how in G1 they were locked in the closet most of the time?

    This is why you plan your film out!
     
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  3. Rob

    Rob IDW FOREVER

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    Well said.

    Bay Optimus always felt to me like a weak persons idea of strong.
     
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  4. GoldToaster

    GoldToaster 90% Gold 10% Toaster

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    Brawl is a great example of that....And I can somewhat agree, I’m not to fond on the idea of Optimus killing humans but under the circumstances prime was put under no wonder why he wanted to kill humans :confused: 
     
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  5. drbeakman

    drbeakman Well-Known Member

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    Once again... addressing this somehow in the narrative, by actually acknowledging that he "lost his way" --whether he is apologetic for it or not-- rather than just leaving it up in the air (like most of the characterization in the bayverse) would allow me accept this angle and think it could work

    if it was all some kind of lesson/statement about the terrors of war being made in the form of a heroes tragic descent into madness, i'd totally accept that

    ...but in the end, this is the reality, no matter how much we try and fill in the blanks with our justifications!

    the bayverses perception of heroism is totally deranged and it's a big reason why i dont enjoy it. character "comeuppance moments" are distributed in such a careless way. what characters deserve vs what they get is bizarrely skewed, messing with your internal moral compass, leaving you with a very uncomfortable feeling if you have any sort of conscience. especially because it makes you "laugh at it all" the next moment with terribly timed "humor".

    in the end it totally comes across more as the subconscious manifestation of a weak persons idea of strength and success, and how it is earned and demonstrated ... scary!
     
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  6. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    I’m glad Optimus killed Attinger; given the circumstances it was the only way to save Cade.
     
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  7. Rob

    Rob IDW FOREVER

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    I could not have said it better myself.
     
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  8. Insurgent

    Insurgent Big Red Fire Snorting Dragon

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    And even then, that's just the Autobots guessing. No where, not once, in the entire first movie, do the Decepticons give any indication they want the allspark for anything other than taking back to cybertron to rebuild their world. I mean, they don't say they want to do that either, but they make no mention or move of building an army with earth's machines.
     
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  9. Beastwarsfan95

    Beastwarsfan95 !sdrawkcab si egassem sihT

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    Indeed, from their perspective the Autobots are refusing to hand over the only device (err... the only one we knew of at the time) that could save their world. And for what, to protect a bunch of fleshbags?
     
  10. Sablebot

    Sablebot Autobot Media Scientist

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    Yes-as well as not having OP proactively dealing with the psychological turmoil his ways produced. . .
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2019
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  11. hthrun

    hthrun Show accuracy's overrated

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    I've often heard people be critical of movies when they verbalize too much. Maybe the movie thought we'd realize that on our own, given how Prime was also willing to just leave the earth to fend for itself before Cade convinced him otherwise.

    That's probably why they had Ratchet's line, to explain to the audience while he was explaining to the humans. A second time would have been redundant.

    I guess the Autobots don't discriminate based on body material.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 19, 2019
  12. Decepticon Miner

    Decepticon Miner G1 + Beast Wars = Jesus

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    That’s every Primes issue except G1 and TFA
     
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  13. Sablebot

    Sablebot Autobot Media Scientist

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    Maybe so. I completely get the whole self-thinking thing: I doubt bayverse actually encourages much of that, though-case in point, the Decepticon designs as well as putting several red crosses on Hound after Ratchet was arbitrarily killed off and never once showing those two practicing any Cybertronian medicine;)  (shooting a laser at BB's neck does not count). . .And let's not forget that whole Romeo-and-Juliet law card thing:rolleyes: 

    However, given the bayverse's overemphasis on visuals and explosions, and given that film is a visual medium, we never saw Prime (or any of the Transformers) proactively dealing with the mental state/PTSD of the effects of that war, nor did we ever really see any remorse or regret for his actions.

    I recall an Autobot psychologist (sorry, his name escapes me) in either IDW or Dreamwave Comics. May sound corny: well-written characterization would use that, and other visual cues though;) , to resolve Prime's inner conflict. Prime would have had some serious PTSD and psychological trauma given his murderous, energon-spilling, face-ripping tendencies in the bayverse. . .

    At the end of the day, while the franchise is attached to toys, the toys also have character traits and rich backstories which the bayverse largely neglected in favor of boom-boom-boom, blatant stereotypes, T&A, clusterf#@$ plots, tired and played out Transformers-were-behind-xyz human thing/event/invention, and other similar things. . .
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
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  14. Honorbound

    Honorbound The Working Hermit

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    Psycho was meant as a general derogative, not an indication of any mental disorder. As far as him being a well-intentioned extremist, I call shenanigans: the war wouldn't have started and Cybertron wouldn't have been devastated if not for Megatron's greed. He doesn't want what's best for his people, he wants to be in charge (as he said before Optimus killed him in DotM). Megatron's just smart enough to realize that ruling over a kingdom of ashes and corpses isn't worthwhile.


    Like I said, intelligently. Blindly flailing away will just get you killed, like you said. However, ruthlessly pressing your advantage and never yielding the initiative and tempo of the fight to the opponent is the smart way to do it.
    A TVTropes entry on DotM actually dissected Optimus's fighting style against Shockwave and Megatron: hit them with a distracting blow (ax to the chest in Megatron's case, punching his insides out in Shockwave's case), set-up blow (kicking Megatron's leg out, chokeslamming Shockwave), and finishing blow (ripping Megatron's head off with the ax, ripping Shockwave's throat out (taking his eye with it).

    Like I said, bad writing - what Optimus should have done after moving Lockdown out of the way is check to make sure that Cade wasn't hurt.

    I don't remember the "locked in a closet" bit, but if so, that's some BS. The Dinobots' creation in general is fraught with issues, and future incarnations were better off going with the comics route of them having previously existed on Cybertron.
     
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  15. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Fresh Marvel G1 Fan

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    People need to get the hell over it .

    He was in an incomprehensibly shitty situation. The idea was he was becoming jaded over time. They didn't execute it skilfully but with Sentinel and KSI they actually did manage to move me.

    It's over. It's in the past. We have new movies and a different Prime to look forward to.

    Let Murder Prime be and let his fans enjoy him shamelessly.
     
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  16. drbeakman

    drbeakman Well-Known Member

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    jeez, whatever you say boss!

    except we don't really have any real confirmation of where we go from here, they seem to be up in the air about it all with a few vague ideas and no confirmed directors/writers for the future. so in the meantime, we discuss elements that maybe could help understand the mistakes of the past that shouldn't be repeated?

    you know, discussing things critically doesn't mean you have to stop liking them, right? i like terrible reality shows, and i actively and openly discuss how terrible they are, but i still enjoy them. i dont understand why bayformers is such hostile territory for analysis...

    no ones putting a gun to anyones head and saying "Dont you dare ever watch your combined approx. 15 hours of bayverse footage again". I welcome everyone to do so while we move forward in a way that hopefully gives everyone a little something to be happy about rather than just one group.
     
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  17. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Fresh Marvel G1 Fan

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    This discussion has been going on for years with nothing new, productive, or constructive in ages. In essence it's our eras 'Trukk not munky' or 'RIRFIB' and I'm a defeatist sorta fan of Murder Prime but I imagine this has to be getting old for plenty of people with myriad opinions.
     
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  18. Scoff

    Scoff Well-Known Member

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    Then why did they click on thread that was solely about discussing "Murder Prime"?

    Don't get me wrong, I get being tired of something being brought up in every thread regardless of its relevancy to said thread's topic but when that something is the topic of the thread then people can choose to limit their exposure. If they participate in the discussion then they are choosing to see something that they are tired of seeing.

    Posting a comment that includes some variation of "Stop discussing this" is also honestly just bad forum etiquette.

    There are a lot of topics that have been thoroughly discussed that people still like to make threads about, sometimes it's just because they still have an issue with it or like to discuss it and sometimes it may be because they weren't around the other times. If people still discuss the merits of a work then there are also going to be people who still discuss the flaws of a work.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
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  19. peteynorth

    peteynorth TFW2005 Supporter

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    The issue isn't that Prime kills his enemies, it's that he's bloodthirsty about it, sometimes does it when it's not necessary (not as bad as Hound murdering...yes, murdering an animal in a cage, but still bad), and sometimes he does it without thinking. Seriously, you've just subdued a giant Decepticon, it's probably dangerous enough to justify killing despite the helpless state it's currently in, but he's just spit out some cryptic, ominous and valid-sounding threat; don't you think you'd interrogate him before spraying his brains all over the street? Just an idiotic Bay killing machine who can't be bothered to think things through.

    And the real Prime...basically ANY non-Bay Prime, would NEVER conscript (enslave) heroes that have spent eons in cages. Seriously, his offer to Grimlock was fight for me or fucking die. What a scumbag. And British voiced shithead and Japanese voiced shithead found that warcrime inspirational!

    And the speeches were just so cheesedick. Horribly written, sappy, nonsensical crap.

    So glad Bay Prime is gone forever.
     
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  20. waniel239

    waniel239 "Could never make the hard decisions"

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    Taking Megatron's lines about "saving his people" at face value isn't the best idea. After all, it was the Decepticons who started the war in the first place due to their greed and lust for power, had they decided to quell their thirst for lording over others the Allspark would still be powering Cybertron to this day. And in every movie that he appears majorly in, Megatorn still has the urge to destroy and/or enslave those he sees as weaker and less worthy of existing than him. "Is the future of our race not worth a single Human life?"-M "You'll never stop at one, I'll take you all on!"-OP (RotF) "You still fight for the weak, that is why you lose!"-M; "Join them in extinction!"-M; "Humans don't deserve to live"-M "They deserve to choose for themselves"-OP (HftD) "The Human collaborators have served their purpose Soundwave, it's time to eliminate loose ends"-M (RotF) Upon first contact with Humanity, Megatron decides without any instigation that they are either tools for his plan, pets for his entertainment, or pests to be exterminated. He only wants absolute power and will do anything to get it.
     
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