I'll look at your petition when you tell me one other console game that has over 800 unique models.

 

A 3ds game?

 

So... you'd be perfectly happy if SwSh had the exact same pokemon as USUM?

 

There are a maximum of, what, 6 of these models shown onscreen at once? Size is not an excuse and the mention of 'balance' is nonsense as well. If Gamefreak cared about balance we wouldn't have Mega Rayquaza or half the 'Press this button and the enemy dies' gimmicks. They've MADE all of the models for all the previous pokemon already, back in 2013 or so, and future proofed them to deal with this problem going forward. They're just not taking the time to take pre-prepared models and stats, and slapping a piss-poor excuse over it

Bloody shocking laziness is what this is. Pokemon built itself on having that connection to previous games and being able to keep this stuff going

Plus they said its their idea going forward. What bloody laziness is this? "Oh, sorry, you can use your Dialga in (INSERT INEVITABLE D/P/PT REMAKE HERE) but not in ShSw". That is what this is leading to

 

Ah yes... It's so easy... they just didn't do it!


That's such a great line of reasoning.

Show me any of you're coding work or any work on games.

Yes, I'm going there.. cause I notice the "Laziness" argument almost always comes from dumbasses who don't know a godamn thing they are arm-chairing about.

 

Right back at you, buddy. Where's your work on coding or any work on games?

Now unfortunately, Tigran, I've a bit of the history lurking around the hacking and disassembly scene, so I've got a pretty decent knowledge of what's required. But, y'know, rather than going through the whole kit and kaboodle, let's just take a look at a certain recent Pokemon game that makes a lovely comparison point: Pokemon Let's Go! Alas I cannot just point at a TCRF article on this (Dunno why they don't have one) but I can look at some research done into LG! Exciting!

So, as you and I both know, LG is designed from the ground up to only have Gen 1 pokemon. Yet, despite this, there is a ton of placeholder data for everything past Gen 1. Like, say, Tapu Bulu, left out because it is outside of the game's remit. So! That's one thing we need, the Pokemon's name. Next thing we need are the movesets and that's why we can see this Tapu Bulu, because LG's method of catching hacked pokemon is to target the movesets and moves they shouldn't have, with a whole host of moves in the game. Movesets are just pure data once again and are fairly simple to add in. Going on from this are TMs and breedable moves, which is a point Gamefreak frequently flounder at, see the number of times there have been egg moves impossible for pokemon to learn

The third thing is stats. These are numbers. Next is an XP curve of which there are 5-6ish by last count, pick whatever's appropriate for the pokemon (Some pokemon level quick at first and then slow, others slow at first then quick). Then we need a cry, which already exist and I would imagine just have a simple file structure for Game Freak to grab, so I'd imagine just grab one. Then gender ratios which is another quick little bit of data being if it even has a gender firstly, and then what ratio of male/female is if it does. See Azumarill for what happens when they forget to match that up to the previous form.

So, we've got 90% of a pokemon there, what's missing?

Finally you need the model and this is where I'm calling them out: They have the model data. They've had this since 2013. It exists. They are not making brand new models for all 800+ Pokemon, which we can see by the previous pokemon being used in the trailer. They are using the same models.

Because I know how much work goes into these things, I feel safe with my aformentioned judgement that this is lazieness, especially with the further statement they are intending on this being a thing going forward, so when they make an inevitable D/P/Pt remake, you've got about a 50% chance of anything you catch in ShSw to even allow you to transfer it over. Because they're skipping the step of transferring over all the previous data which they have because there are games they can just copy and paste this data from. They don't even need to go back to the original! They can take the data they've already built for Us/Um and just put it in this game. The hardest part of this is the model and they only need to make models for the new Pokemon!

Excuse me for actually bothering to look into these things

 

do we really need EVERY pokemon ever created in-game?

Like, I can think of at least 20 that serve no purpose in story or combat that I'd be happy to never see again. I'm sure there are even more that I'm not even remembering because they're so useless.

 

Strong pokemon, weak pokemon. People want to play with their favourites

Le'ts just assume they took your favourite pokemon out of the game because it didn't fit with the theme. Unable to use it in the active game, unable to transfer it back to a game you can use it in, eternally trapped in a box. Because that's what's going to happen. No comments of them being useful or not, just someone else arbitrarily deciding they don't want to copy and paste the data for your favourite pokemon from the last game, put it in this one, and go from there. Because that's the future Gamefreak have said they want

 

Thank you for your reply.

As for my experience, I took programming for two years as an elective before my university decided that it no longer counted towards my major. So I do have experience. I also worked 16 years in tech support working with multitudes of programs, while not in the coding side, I -have- worked with the "Add and remove programs to other programs."

The problem with your argument, is that a) you assume all the data is in the game. b) that data doesn't cause problems with more updated code, c) this is a direct relation to lazyness.

But your LITERALLY saying everything is just there and they are to lazy to hit a copy and paste button.

Because with home, they wouldn't have to worry about things like routes to find them on, items or anything.. Just the models and move sets... Are you saying that they are too lazy to hit a "Copy and paste" button? A game that's already more complicated than many out there, already making massive changes.. and they are too "Lazy" to hit a button?

Sorry.. I don't buy it.

Hell you say all this is already in the coding for the game, using lets go as an example, but there is also numerous NUMEROUS times that making some of the edits that you said, causes the game to utterly crash. And it's not unusual to have other stuff in the coding that actually has absolutely nothing with the current build as just a test thing.. Unless your telling me that there is a secret arwing mission in OoT.

And if "things on the screen at once" is so limited.. and that's why they can be expected to have so many models, why doesn't games like Dragon Quest XI have over... 800 models?

Even DQXI has only has 662 monsters.. many of which share models.

Dragon Quest XI: Echoes of an Elusive Age Bestiary v0.3 Walkthroughs

Are you going to say that DQ is a lazy game?

 

Cool! Great experience! However, what experience on the rom hacking side? I've only browsed but I was around when the Nick Arcade Sonic 2 prototype was developed, along with the Sonic Adventure Autodemo that revealed the beta Windy Valley. I don't have much working experience, but a lot of exposure to this side

I am presuming the following:

1: The data exists. We know this to be true, because Pokemon Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon exist
2: Pokemon are designed in such a way it is relatively easy to slip them in and out as development happens. We know this to be true thanks to disassembles of previous Pokemon games, and things such as Mew being slipped in at the last minute and, well, the whole Missingno glitch working in the first place. You can snag said disassembles pretty easy if you want, they've got everything up until Emerald
3: The data structure for new pokemon has not changed terribly since the last games. This is the big bit I'm presuming as I don't know why they'd change something that works

Here's the problem: What Home has in it, the game does not. Home has all the Pokemon, yes. They are saying they are not going to program certain Pokemon into ShSw. That is, they are only coding in the specific relative Pokemon. There can quite literately be a case where there is a Pokemon available in ShSw that is not coded into a hypothetical D/P/Pt remake. I mean, let's take Cranidos for example. It is guaranteed to be in this hypothetical D/P/Pt remake. But its a Pachycephalosaur with no place in England. It is not a battling darling. Its just some rock type.

They could not have Cranidos programmed into the game for ShSw, but program it into the remake. And then the Remake could just be missing 90% of the pokemon from Galar region. Not 'Missing' as in 'You cannot catch them but you can trade them in', "Missing" as in 'They are not programmed into the game, trying to trade them will fail, and as far as that game is concerned they do not exist'

The data makes it crash because the relevant bits aren't in place. If you were to hack the game and put that data in place then, well, you'd have that there and then. It isn't in for that game because its only caring about Gen 1. But this is the latest Pokemon mainline game, and as the latest Pokemon mainline game, there is the expectancy of being able to continue a living 'dex in that game. Just like we've been able to do since Ruby/Sapphire

The Arwing was used to test Volvagia's movement and targeting

It is a noted problem with the 3DS games that they lag up in big battles with Pokemon. The thing we're not looking at is total models, it is "Number being displayed at once". That is the system's limitation. The system's other limitation is how much it can fit into it but, well, they can compress to fit more stuff in for Pokemon that may not be necessary

DQXI isn't a monster catching game that has built itself on 20 years of backwards compatibility. Something we have taken as a series staple, that was reprogrammed in for the two games that didn't support it due to actual, genuine system issues, is being removed. The excuse we are being given is something about balance and time. Balance is laughable, they have never given any though to balance in the past (See: Mega Rayquaza), and the timing sounds right: They don't want to spend the time to program in Pokemon and therefore remove something that has been a series staple.

Has Dragon Quest had a massive key part of its gameplay feature torn out of it recently with no suitable replacements? Because that's what you've got to be comparing to. 20 years of being able to transfer your Pokemon to further games, the whole idea of the Living Dex, is being destroyed by ShSw.

 

I know I don't have much to say about the technical/data standpoint of things, but could the various other stuff also effect why not all the Pokemon could come in? Things like rendering the various backgrounds, weather effects, characters and their movements/dialogue and whatnot?

Then on the other side, I remember hearing about an interview that mentioned that GF is more focused on their other games like Town this time around. That could also be a factor.

It'll be spiky-eared Pichu all over again.....

 

Impidimp is sort of terrifying.

 

Honestly we still don't know much about this situation or what rules they are following. But if I had to guess.

The most likely ones will be:
Gen 2-Gen 7 starters
Legendaries
Mythicals
Ultra Beasts

That is already 133 unique Pokemon Models. That's still 679 past game Pokemon left. Which currently there is just over 160 regional Pokemon in the Swsh dex. Including Mew due to the Pokeball Plus.


For basic pokemon we are looking at most likely:

Game specific Pokemon (Totem, Cosplay Pikachu, etc etc)
Possibly Alolan Variants depending
Glitched/Hacked Pokemon
Event Pokemon

That again makes sense.

Now we don't know yet what other pokemon just dont make it in, but we can't ignore that it may not be as severe as people are making it out to be.

 

Not adding in all the Pokémon is definitely not lazy, but it’s a weird move nonetheless.

Look, I bet this game is insane to make and that they’re probably prioritizing the right stuff to get this game out in time. However:
-all games have had all Pokémon available that existed up until that point, with the only exception being Let’s Go (which I think is quite understandable).
-we know/have seen that the models and animations in all games have been streamlined ever since the 3D era, which is a really smart move. Models in Go and Let’s Go, as well as what we’ve seen from Sword/Shield are all the same, only with higher/lower quality textures and different shaders. And not just in-battle stuff - the bits where you feed and clean your Pokémon as - well. The Sun/Moon era even had walking animations hidden in the code (and hey! Looks like they’re using at least some of these for the Wild Area).
-balancing shouldn’t be a real issue as no generation had proven to be perfectly balanced (as all things should be). It’s impossible and through time people will always figure out tactics and advantages that shift to competitive players sort of using similar teams. And when. Playing Ultra Sun it’s not like I went back to only use Kanto Pokémon or some shit. Everyone still uses new Mons. Plus there are now many different battle styles so there will be enough variety anyway.
-If the 3DS games can hold data for 800+ Mons I’m sure a Switch cartridge had room for 200 more (which is being generous).
-they don’t even need to change or tweak anything about the old Pokémon data such as levels it learns stuff. Why would they?
-Pokémon Home will not launch until 2020 so by then the game has been out for a reasonable enough time most people have bought and played through it ‘the way it’s meant to be’ anyway. Just like how the Bank update came later when Sun/Moon was released.
-maybe it’s just me, but I don’t even really care whether or not they will include all the old items needed for special evolutions like the Whipped Cream and Magmarizer and what not. If the game doesn’t have a National Dex anyway there’s no real need - just give people the option to send in a Magmortar or something if they happen to have it.
-Just like with Mega Evolutions and Z-moves, it’s reasonable to accept that just not every Pokémon will have the ability to

Spoiler

Gigantamax

if the leaks are true. And the Dynamaxing seems to upscale models and change their moves, so that’s relatively easily implemented for every Pokémon anyway (it also seems every Mon is upscaled to a certain maximum area - not relative to each other. A Dynamax Raichu is just as tall as a Dynamax Gyarados, for example...so nothing crazy there developinf-wise either).
-they’ve stated the Let’s Go feature of Pokémon walking behind you is not in this game so they don’t need additional running animations for any Pokémon that’s not already available in the Wild Area.

So...unless they have something outrageous and crazy planned in terms of character models that would require them to update all old Pokémon in unfeasible ways I really don’t see why they would cut this feature. It would still take time to convert all Pokémon for the new game, and I’m sure this goes for move animations as well - but even there I’m positive that they’re working in an engine that’s based on the Sun/Moon one (as people on Youtube have managed to make it work and present high-res emulation - AND the idea behind Ultra Sun & Moon was giving inexperienced developers at Game Freak the chance to learn the ropes and make some mileage to get ready for the big league....hence why it’s a tweaked version of the original Sun & Moon!).
Are you telling me, for a game that’s bound to make gazillions, they couldn’t hire two or three additional people to take care of transferring and tweaking the old Pokémon models and battle animations? Again, I’m sure they are prioritizing but it’s still pretty damn lame. They kinda shot themselves in the foot with the first sequel where they allowed transfer of old Pokémon in the first place (and people were not pleased when you couldn’t transfer from G/S/C to R/S/E either, although apparently that was impossible because of hardware at the time).

I know we’re all armchair critiquing here, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable for people to point out this disappointment. Like I said before...I’ve been paying for Pokémon Bank for a couple of years and finally getting all Pokémon and storing them as a ‘living Dex’...only to find out Sun/Moon didn’t have a Dex. But at least those games still kept track of which Pokémon was ever in your game and showed which move was effective and which not. This is pretty bad as Sword/Shield is going to be the next big milestone and it ‘deserves’ to be all-inclusive. Right?  

Anyway..disappointment or not, I’m still looking forward to this game and I am VERY grateful for this series existing and having given us the 800+ Pokémon and excitement at all. So thanks! But I’m still holding out hope that they’ll EVENTUALLY update the game - probably long after release...But I have hope. Nintendo also backpedaled on Mario Maker 2s lack of online friend co-op, so yay!  


(And before anyone asks - yes, I do have multiple years of experience in games. Not as a programmer, although I have slightly dipped my toe into that water at an earlier age. I hope that I at least know enough to make an estimated assumption and am not just ranting from a consumer point of view - creating games IS hard and much more involved than many uninformed consumers are aware of, btw. And that’s just talking about the creating part, not so much being part of a bigger picture pf publishers, pr and retailers ;-) )


Apologies for wall of text!

 

I'm surprised they would limit the amount of Pokémon in the game because how are they gonna do all their legendary event distributions they love to do if the data for them isn't in the games.

 

Really bothered by this news. I thought for sure with the announcement of Home that my favorites, companions and their descendants would be immortalized, not left in a box to rot. I definitely won't be able to do a Detective Pikachu themed play through of SwSh now which really takes away from it because so far Sobble and Wooloo are the only half decent looking Pokémon you can get early.

 

Seriously? there is no good reason to do this. even Sun and moon let you transfer them all even if you did not get a national dex. Nintendo really needs to reverse course on that decision.

Seriously this is close akin to embargo between the first two gens and R/S/E that left man pokemon on Gameboy carts to vanish into the ether when their batteries ran out. Back then i can accept there were technological limitation that prevented the forward transfer. Today? No there is no good reason in terms of technology to prevent them from transferring them all.

I strongly suspect its more a budget thing due to the expense of making all the required 3D models to Switch standards.

Impidimp and Yamper look good , i am curious to learn more about them.

 

I'm not mad, but I just am not excited about Sw/Sh anymore. I might end up going on a Pokemon Hiatus in Gen 8 waiting for Pokemon Spear or Pokemon Unstoppable Sword and Immovable Shield (whatever they call them) to see if those get national dexes. I'd actually have been more hyped, and even kind ok (maybe?) with this move by Gamefreak if they were pulling a Gen 5 and were adding 160 new Pokemon and wanted to really let players focus on that dex. As is, it just seems weird and I'll be thinking about what I am missing if I play.

 

Agreed . i am not mad , just puzzled that Nintendo and Gamefreak failed to learn from the past. I'll still play sword/shield just not as excited for it as i once was.

 

Can they not just patch the game later to expand the 'Dex? That seems like the easiest solution...