Yes the approach stays the same when you haven’t even seen the movie. Transformers is not producer driven,just compare Bayverse to bumblebee.

 

Transformers? The "toy commercial" movies and cartoons (as people will be quick to remind you, whenever you expect anything of quality)? Aren't producer driven?

And you assume that people can't recognise patterns and make educated assumptions, just because you can't? It's almost 15 years of this song and dance, mate. At some point you start getting a clue, if you're not 15 yourself.

 

Ok smart guy.You missed the point.

 

Dude, you missed the point at the very start. I was responding to someone else.

 

You are out of your absolute mind if you think, or if you want to pretend, that this is some kind of "sticking it up" thing. You are talking to someone who has spent atleast 2 years trying to tell people that they are being willfully stupid if they think that the problem is some boomer out of touch producer who barely pays attention to the movie and blatantly gets plot point wrongs when talking about them. I am entirely against this quasi-autistic need to have a "punching bag" for fan grievances.

I just want the movie to bomb because out of 6 movies Paramount has made precisely only one that I genuinely think was good so I, as a fan, want it in someone else's hands and I know that it is not gonna go to someone else's hands if they perform well enough that Hasbro goes "well guess we can keep going and renew the contract". People are gonna lose their jobs? Sounds like the studio's problem for making weak content and bleeding money than my fault for wanting the franchise to leave their hands. Also fucking lol at "cheer them on!!" as if I would be able to do that when every piece of information coming out about this is just more red flags. I am waiting to see the robot designs because I want to see cool toys and that is about the end of it as far as I am concerned.

 

I'm saying that hoping a movie flops without even giving it a chance is misguided. I was responding to a user who essentially said he hopes this movie flops, and will even pirate it if it's good because he's still mad about movies that came out a decade ago. That's not a healthy mentality. I'm not saying anyone has to blindly cheer for this movie or throw money at it if it's terrible. Just open your mind to the possibility that it will be good.

The last Transformers movie they made wasn't weak content, and it didn't bleed money. IMO Bumblebee was a better Transformers movie than I could imagine from most of Paramount's competitors (although that's a totally subjective opinion). We honestly know very little about ROTB. It's fine to have concerns (I do myself), but it could end up being great. It's just weird to me that Transformers fans would seemingly rather have a Transformers movie fail than hope for the best.

 

It's also fine to have concerns beyond "is the movie going to be fun or not". There is a bigger picture and it's perfectly logical to think that a proposed trajectory for the franchise is not what people hope for it. If people don't like the way Lorenzo handles things and he won't drastically change his tune, then people can not hope for the best, unless someone else handles things and properly reboots. I don't find any of this unreasonable or ill-conceived.

 

There's a lot of middle ground between having minimal concerns and flat out hoping the movie is bad and flops. I think it's fine to be wary and skip the movie if it looks bad and gets bad reviews. But I think it's very unreasonable to write off a movie nine months before release and say you'll pirate it even if it's good.

And what guarantee do you have this will even happen if Paramount looses the rights? A lot of people have convinced themselves that a reboot under someone else will make everything okay, and give us the Transformers movies we've always wanted. But that's wishful thinking. The perfect reboot you're picturing in your head will never happen. It's possible that someone else would do an even worse job. Heck, another studio might decide to decanonize AOE and TLK and continue after DOTM, considering that movie brought in a ton of money. And even a hard reboot could be bad. It's also possible that ROTB flopping would lead to no one wanting this brand, and no movies for a long time. This idea that ROTB has to flop for Transformers to get better is complete wishful thinking.

The last Paramount Transformers movie was great. Why hope for another studio to take over when the most likely route to a good Transformers movie is Paramount following the footsteps of Bumblebee? ROTB is said to have an emphasis on heart and characters. It's giving us G1 Optimus Prime, and Beast Wars characters that seem faithful to the originals. Yes there are things to be concerned about (like the amount of factions), but I'd say the majority of what we've heard seems good, and seems like stuff fans will be happy with.

 

I don't care about what you like and what you don't like, it has zero effect on my enjoyment. I think Bumblebee was only "neat" at absolute best and looks good only in comparison to the much worse recent films and that it was saved from bleeding money only by cash infusion from China much like the awful Age of Extinction film, the studio burned away a fair amount of goodwill from me and as far as I am concerned, I want to see someone else try to mess with it. But that point is moot anyway, since I wasn't talking about Transformers only, I was talking about Paramount's failures as a whole. If ROTB underperforming spells doom for the jobs of many of their employees that is only because they have put themselves into an unpleasant situation due to their own incompetence to attract eyes to their content.

And we know very much about ROTB's concept and the people making it, we know the writers too, we know the scope they're going for, I am familiar with the work of most of the involved and I didn't care for any of it, so I have no reason to assume this will be any better. All I care about is getting a Transformers movie I like again before I hit my 40s and my chances of getting that, as far as I am concerned, are much higher if this franchise goes to the hands of somebody else. Don't waste your time trying to spin this into a 'youre mad at them' thing, the pirate line was a flippant joke more than a serious statement, I assure it is only a 'I am tired of them and I want someone else on the helm' thing.

 

We vote with our wallets. And as far as franchises go, we're not only voting about a single movie, but also about where that movie and its surrounding circumstances take the franchise. If the only way to get even a chance of clean slate reboot without Lorenzo, is if this movie tanks, then it's them who forced things into that predicament. Because, more than a decade later, nothing else has brought the desired outcome. They just don't listen.

And what guarantee do you have that the same people who keep driving the franchise to the ground will suddenly have an epiphany?

Press X for Doubt, but, still, I'd be fine with close enough.

That's a completely baseless, hyberbolic and arbitrary assumption. They just managed to make an ok movie, after a decade of turning Transformers into the butt of every joke.

So, completely fundamental things to any movie that we should be taking for granted already.

This description alone is utterly unfaithful and disrespectful to the originals on every level.

But fans, evidently, aren't happy with superficial fan service. Fans aren't happy when random things are taken out of context from random parts of the source material and smashed together into a "movie", whether it fits or not. Who would have thought, huh?

Finally, at this point, I must admit that I find your undying support for the preservation of the status quo, highly dubious.

 

I have no problem with you wanting to see another movie studio take on Transformers. If that had been your post, I probably would have never responded. I think that's a perfectly reasonable wish. I take problem with the whole "we need to encourage boycotting and pirating it so it fails" attitude. If you were just joking then fair enough, but it didn't come across that way initially (to me, at least).

It's probably just a case of the joke not translating well though text, but it doesn't help that a lot of people make those sort of statements unironically. You don't have to look hard to find people calling for boycotts and encouraging pirating of movies they don't like. At this point that sort of joke (unless it's really played up) is almost indistinguishable from the people being serious, because people unironically say more extreme things than that.

This just sounds like an exhausting way to consume entertainment. And an inherently flawed way. Hollywood counts on people supporting movies they like, and not supporting movies they don't like. If ROTB ends up being a legitimately good movie (or a significant improvement) and still flops, the takeaway from Hollywood is probably going to be that audiences don't want heart and character, but they just want to go back to DOTM action and spectacle, since that movie was a bigger hit. Even another studio could reach that conclusion. Refusing to support the movie regardless of quality to make some statement about the franchise will send Hollywood mixed messages, and could even end up having the opposite effect.

Bumblebee. Bumblebee was a major step up from previous films in terms of storytelling and characterization, and Paramount has been saying for years that they're going to lean into that approach for future Transformers movies. I'd much rather be cautiously optimistic for that approach than hope everything fails and collapses, which could very well lead to nothing.

Again, I understand that this movie could end up being bad. But don't you want to see Paramount's character and story driven approach? This could end up being the greatest cinematic Transformers stuff yet. Maybe even the best live-action stuff we'll ever get. This is probably the most exciting and optimistic time for live-action Transformers since '06 and '07, and people would rather just watch everything burn.

But what is 'close enough'? Who's to say Bumblebee (or possibly ROTB) isn't the closest we'll get? A lot of fans form overambitious ideas that work in their head and suit their particular taste, but would never work in practice (they'd be way too expensive, too esoteric, not appealing to kids and/or general audiences, etc). Most fan ideas I read honestly wouldn't make good movies. Heck, most would have no possibility of even being greenlit.

Like, I remember a guy who wanted a full MCU-style cinematic universe complete with a Cyclonus trilogy. People ask for R-rated Last Stand of the Wreckers movies, overly serious Nolan-esque movies, etc. It's possible your ideas are within reason, but a lot of people's aren't.

Obviously this is going into complete subjectivity, but I love Bumblebee. It pretty much gave me everything I wanted in a live-action Transformers film, and about the only thing that could make it a more 'definitive' Transformers film is a larger focus on Optimus and an ensemble cast (in order to make it a proper "Transformers" movie instead of a "Bumblebee" standalone movie) Which seems to be what ROTB is giving us. So from my perspective, ROTB has the potential to be the ideal Transformers movie (if they can nail the storytelling, heart, and characterization).

I'm personally of the opinion that Bumblebee is about as good of a Transformers live-action film as we're going to get. Which isn't to say it's any sort of masterpiece. And I do think it's possible to make something a step or two above it. But when you take into consideration the cost of effects, the balance between fan wishes and general audience wishes, limitations/constraints of the live-action format and studio approach, the nostalgia factor vs newness, etc...I think Bumblebee finds a pretty ideal balance.

Maybe people would say I'm setting my standards too low, but I think that's better than setting my standards too high (which a lot of fans do). If you go in expecting the most mind-blowing Transformers film ever, you're always going to be disappointed.

I don't disagree with you here. But the fact of the matter is that Transformers is taking baby steps, and we're finally at the point where we're getting these things. Is that ideal? No, but it's what we have to work with. And if we boycott a movie that's trying to give us these things, it will send the wrong message. You can't ask for something and then smack the plate out of their hands when they give it to you. That won't only send the wrong message to Paramount, but to any potential future owners of the Transformers film rights.

All of this reads like you're talking as if you've seen the movie. We have no idea how they'll handle the BW characters, Optimus, fanservice/source material, etc. They could end up doing a great job. My concerns are less related to these things, and more with general filmmaking stuff like pacing and an overstuffed story as a result of too many concepts. But we'll see.

I don't have an "undying support for the preservation of the status quo". I want Paramount to evolve and improve, and I'll be the first to speak up if ROTB is a step back from Bumblebee in terms of storytelling and characterization. I'll also speak up if this movie gives us Optimus executing humans or has Cheetor urinate on someone. I'm not asking for a return to Bay-level storytelling.

The fact that you interpreted my post to be "undying support for the preservation of the status quo" IMO highlights how unhealthy this mentality is. What a shame that I'd prefer getting "okay" or "fine" movies about children's cartoon space robots, as opposed to seeing hundreds or thousands of people their jobs and one of Hollywood's classic movie studios collapse. A fair amount of people here seem to be chomping at the bit to see Paramount collapse, and it feels more like people just wanting revenge for the Bay movies than people simply wanting a good movie. If you want a good Transformers movie, wish that ROTB is good. Support it if it's good, so we get more stuff like it. When people start wishing for flops and studio collapses regardless of quality, I'm going to assume there's something more personal and sinister going on than just wanting a good movie.

 

Hollywood counts on people supporting established IPs they are already invested in. And takes them for granted.

What's exhausting is trying to convince people you meet, that what you love has nothing to do with how dumb the movies made it look.

That's exactly how Lorenzo seems to think. He's definitely not an exception in Hollywood, though, indeed.

A movie can be technically fine and watchable, if judged in a vacuum (or judged in comparison to Bay's movies), but, at the same time, it can be a terrible representation of the IP and set the franchise up for failure, again.

Hollywood has proven time and time again, that if we support mediocrity, they're not incentivized to do better. So, essentially, you're arguing that there's nothing we can do, but hope for the best while we cheer and support any dumb idea, or just, crawl into a corner and silently skip. And that's just arbitrary and plain false and arguably even offensive to suggest.

Mate... It wasn't "a major step". We were, like 100 steps backwards, and Bumblebee just made one, back, forwards. It was just, sort of the equivalent of a lighthearted filler issue from the comic books in movie form, but with an identity crisis. Paramount is just taking buzzwords like "heart" and "G1" and using them to sell you another movie.

I'd much rather be cautious and critical of the people who fill their pockets by leading the franchise to nothing anyway.

How about "Just don't take a huge dump on the source material for once"? Is that too hard?

Yeah, but that's just, like, your opinion, man. I liked Bumblebee too, but, let's not blow it out of proportion. There's so much potential to the concept and the mythology of Transformers, that it feels like the only thing that keeps it from the endless possible ways it could be up there with Star Wars and Marvel at their best, is literally just the incompetence of the people in charge of it right now.

You know what will definitely send the wrong message to Paramount? Paying and supporting them no matter what they do.

What other movie in the world could be sold with the promise that "it's going to have heart this time"?!?!? Are we even serious? We ask for a respectful adaptation of the source material, for almost 15 years now, and they sell us "heart"? Are we even discussing this?

We know that they're stripped of their original context just by being in the same movie. And it already makes a previously vast fictional world, which expands through space and time, feel smaller.

Again, some people don't want to see a movie that features this idea for those characters. Some people do not think it's a good idea. We don't need to watch every movie in the world to determine if it's good. People can make up their minds based on information available about a movie, before seeing the movie, to decide it they're going to spend the money and the time to see it. It's that simple. And it always has been. Stop this broken record.

But Bay is not the status quo anymore. Sure, you can land mild criticisms here and there, but, never anything too critical. We just can't let anyone rock the boat too much.

That's essentially, re-iterating your original manifesto that "whoever dislikes Lorenzo's handling of this franchise, wants people to lose their jobs!". I wish I was paid to say such bullcrap.

 

I'm not wishing people to lose their job, but it's hard to hope the movie will be good after what we got before Bumblebee, and BB itself didn't make a lot because some still soured from the experience of watching TLK and skipped it in theater (I know I did, and I kind of regretted it after seeing it on TV).

 

Only if you make it exhausting. I used to tell people "I like Transformers, but I'm more into the cartoons than the movies". If you feel embarrassed about the Bay movies, that's all it takes to distance your fandom from them.

At this point I don't waste much effort trying to make liking Transformers seem dignified. If someone is the sort of person that looks down on you for liking Bay's Transformers, they're probably also the sort of person who would look down on you for liking the children's cartoons and toys. Most sci-fi fans are pretty accommodating to people's interests...and I feel no need to bend over backwards for the ones who aren't. I don't think Bay's movies are as much of a joke or as taboo as you think they are. Most average Joe non-fans especially are fine with people liking them.

I don't think the other movies did take a dump on the source material (outside of maybe a joke or two). I definitely think Bay, Lorenzo, and co made some questionable decisions. There are a lot of jokes in poor taste and whatnot. But this idea that the filmmakers sit around taking potshots at the brand and at fans is just ridiculous. They made some creative decisions you didn't like. If you were in charge, I guarantee you'd make some creative decisions other fans wouldn't like. We all have different tastes. It's fine to not like decisions they made and to point out what didn't work for you, but not everything you dislike is "taking a dump on the brand".

I fundamentally disagree here. Even the best Transformers stuff can't touch the best of Star Wars. I love Transformers, but it will never rival the throne room scene in ROTJ or...the entirely of ESB or ANH, honestly. If you're waiting for a Transformers movie of that quality, you're going to be disappointed with anything they put out.

Marvel maybe. This is getting into subjective opinions again, but I personally like Bumblebee better than most of the MCU movies.

To address your point about Transformers concepts, I believe that's where Transformers thrives. And I think the existing movies are pretty conceptually interesting. Some of the movies play into the disguise angle quite well, like Cade buying an old truck and discovering it's Optimus. All of the movies introduce unique new types of Transformer (some pulled from existing lore and some are entirely new concepts), like Combiners, Triple changes, Pretenders, whatever Reedman was, etc. The overall storytelling is lacking, but I never saw the conceptual side of Bayformers as lacking...I'd argue it's one of the more conceptually interesting incarnations of the brand.

Also, Rise of the Beasts is said to be a heist film. Which might be the single most interesting thing you could do with Transformers on a conceptual level. And that's on top of this movie delving headfirst into Beast Transformers, (possibly) time travel, heralds of Unicron, an Autobot that can create hologram illusions of himself, and exploring Optimius Prime's love of Earth and humanity. We'll see how the execution goes, but this movie does not sound conceptually lacking by any stretch of the imagination. If anything it might be too packed with concepts.

Which isn't what I'm advocating for at all. I've said several times now that you should see the movie if it looks good to you, and skip it if it looks bad. What I'm against is forming an opinion on the final film nine months before release, and advocating for a boycott regardless of quality with the goal of forcing a flop. Which is something the other user admitted he was being intentionally hyperbolic about for the sake of humor.

They're creating a new lore and mythology by combining aspects of previous incarnations. Which is something Transformers has always done, and even the MCU does regularly. It's fine to think these would be better as separate movies, but stripping them of their original context doesn't matter, since the new context might make for just as good of a story. If you want the original context, the original shows still exist.

I agree that you don't have to see the movie to make a decision about whether or not you want to watch it.

That being said, I don't think you can make a fair decision about whether or not the final movie is worth skipping based on one press release and a handful of set photos. We know next to nothing about this movie. I think you should at least wait until a trailer and (even better) some reviews from critics/YouTubers that your tastes tend to align with.

I've never remotely implied that. Dislike Lorenzo's approach all you want, I'm not trying to convince you to like it. Well, maybe I'm trying to open your mind to what I think are the good aspects, but feel free to dislike what you dislike. Make a documentary on why Lorenzo stinks for all I care.

I'll reiterate that I wasn't replying to a post about simply disliking Lorenzo's approach (or Paramount's or Bay's). Or even a post saying Lorenzo should be replaced. I was specifically addressing a post where someone was calling for a boycott, piracy, and spreading of misinformation on social media, with the goal of causing a movie to flop. Which very much implies (intentional or not) a loss of jobs and livelihoods. As I said above, thankfully that user clarified that he was making an exaggerated joke, and wasn't wishing ill on anyone.

But an unironic version of that mentality is very much alive and well, and pops up everywhere. Not just in Transformers, but in a lot of fandoms. You don't have to look hard to find people hoping studios fail, calling for boycotts, and encouraging piracy. And even wishing worse stuff than that on people like Bay and Lorenzo. That's the mentality I was pushing back against, not simply disliking Lorenzo's approach.

 

Oh please when has star wars had something as good as more than meets the eye-lost light?Have you seen the original trilogy as an adult.They are mediocre at best and you are blinded by nostalgia and they are so boring.If we get movies on that level then in fact it will be disappointing.

 

I mean I wasn't joking about the "I'm pirating it cuz I got no faith in it being good" part but yeah you can be fairly sure that I was not seriously campaigning for a boycott since I don't actualy care that much (my scope doesnt go beyond hoping it changes hands one day) and also because even if I did care I do still possess a couple of brain cells so I know that no nerdy boycott will ever be able to truly affect the bottom line of a mass media product.

 

I personally think the Star Wars OT runs circles around MTMTE/LL. The Star Wars OT has issues (ROTJ especially), but overall it was a groundbreaking and innovative series of movies that appealed to wide audiences in a way that science fiction never had before. It's a wonderful combination of mythology, sci-fi, pulpy adventure stories, and family drama.

Star Wars manages to be a simple story that doesn't require too much thinking to enjoy, and also introduced ideas and philosophy that people still think about 40 years later. Kids can get into the space fights and quips, and adults can get into the deeper themes and subtext (as well as the fun stuff). Luke Skywalker is a great deconstruction of the typical action hero, and Vader is a great deconstruction of the typical one-note villain. ESB is a fantastic sequel that's hard to find any serious flaws in. I don't think it's hyperbolic to say Star Wars is a modern mythology, and that's coming from someone who rolls my eyes whenever someone calls superheroes a modern mythology.

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To me MTMTE/LL is mostly Transformers fanservice done well. I enjoyed the novelty of the first season. I got bored during the second season, and admittedly didn't care enough to read the third. I do think it contained a lot of good storytelling, but to me the concept wore really thin eventually. The whole "galactic roadtrip" thing was fun for a while, but eventually I stopped caring about the goal because the story itself didn't even seem to care. It seemed like the kind of thing that would have made a better limited series story with ten issues or so. Any sort of deeper themes or subtext weren't terribly memorable to me (not saying they weren't present, they just didn't stick with me).

The decision to not have any humans eliminated two core components of the Transformers brand...the aspect of disguise, and the aspect of these two cultures colliding and learning from each other. Which are probably the two most interesting things this brand has to offer. I do enjoy aspects of MTMTE (I'd even go as far as to say I generally like it), but I think it's far from some great story. Or even a great representation of the brand. It's more comparable to the pulpy stories Star Wars was inspired by than Star Wars itself.

 

Oof.

 

I think this is part of the problem. They keep bringing the concept from TF franchise which, while we (TF fans) know and can recognize it, the casual moviegoer won't know.

Who is Alice, and why is she trying to kill Sam, and why she suddenly become mechanical? (Answer: Pretender). Not answered, only appeared in one short scene, and there's no further ellaborate or even a mention (or any other Pretender appearance).

Who is Cogman? IIRC, in the movie he's being recognized as a Headmaster, but WHAT is a Headmaster? What makes him special, and why there's only one of him? Maybe it's a scene being cut (because for some reason they can put a useless submarine scene but no showing what a Headmaster can do) judging by the toy (Nitro Zeus and Cogman interaction).

Triple Changer is cool, but sadly it doesn't translate well into the toys. It's 2021 and we still haven't got official toys of Shatter, Dropkick, and Drift being a Triple Changer.

Combiner is also cool, but they ultimately do nothing. Devastator went, scrap a ruins, get shot, and die of his own weight. Infernacus combine and separate, then got killed in a second.

It is the problem in the movie, I think. Bringing many concept from the franchise, but never ellaborate and/or using them well enough.

Talking about Cogman really makes me remember why I hate TLK.

 

I love how that's somehow a controversial thing to say.

Yes, if a person sucks at their job then they shouldn't have it.