Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Sixshot93, Nov 11, 2016.
I agree-and here's an article, that though old, still applies, in my opinion:
What Michael Bay can learn from Transformers: Prime | CliqueClack
And some others:
The Ten Things That Might Make a Better Transformers Movie. - Articles - DVDActive
10 Things That Could Save The Transformers Movies
The Transformers Live-Action Movies, as they should have been.
Thing is, all these traits either come from other media, or are directly tied to combat. I'm talking about interests, relationships, how they react to things, how they interperate things. Things that make them more than just robots, which is what they honestly feel like except Bumblebee, who has been established to be vain, somewhat egotistical, and rash in his decisions. The fact that these brief synopsis can be called their entire character history is a bit of a problem. They're less example of a character's personality and more like you just listing every thing they've done as if that counts.
Where is this ever stated or explored in the movies? Prime's violence and aggression are treated as nothing abnormal, with not a single living being in the movies ever once acknowledging his brutal executions. There is no moral struggle, Optimus is treated as though he is in the right 100% of the time.
Has he ever been refered to as a scout? He's clearly a warrior like the rest. The only scouting he did was in movie one.
Does he? He didn't like Sam's parents because they made his job difficult, and didn't like having guns pointed at him. How does that make him wary of all humans?
Ummm... huh? He was easily the most violent. Unless you think killing a defenceless creature because it's ugly is kind. (at least Drift thought he was being attacked when he killed the tentacle thing)
A fact never once stated in the movies themselves.
Refresh my memory, but when did this happen?
Which, again, falls under "combat." Only reaffirms my issue with all the Autobtos being ruled entirely by fighting and killing.
Something else we were also never told in the movies.
Except, no, none of that is character development. It's either surface-level character traits, or just descriptions of things they did. None of that developed them except Optimus, but his development was pretty damn basic.
I will agree with you that there needs to be more fleshing out on the Transformers part. Which is why I said that Age of Extinction was a step in the right direction because if you compare the other films, most of the Transformers got one signal trait and they ran with it. But with Crosshairs, Drift, Hound, and Brains, we got a bit more of a expanded horizon in terms of character hence why when I mention TLK I say many times "Hopefully Bay continues the improvement he has been making." I'm happy with what we got because it was an improvement to the previous films concerning the Transformers characters. That is why I want to see more improvement, I gave examples of the progress made this far. Though before you ask, I counted Ironhide since he did get character development so he was only a past example.
I would be glad to continue debating this, I tend to like to hear second opinions and sometimes I get surprised.
Actually yes, but not quite with words. Prime's struggle is actually a very good example of the "show, don't tell" rule in writing. It has to do with comparing with how Optimus acted in each of the films. You'll notice that there is a slow decline that tests the limits of Optimus' morals. I would label DotM to AoE as Optimus' breaking point and that is because of two factors, Sentinel Prime and the humans. Optimus trusted Sentinel Prime as well as admired and respected him; when Sentinel betrayed the Autobots, it flew in the face of what Optimus stood for. But he did manage to stand by his morals, still believing the humans were worth fighting for. But the betrayal left Optimus shaken. When the humans betrayed the Autobots and began hunting and killing them, Optimus was angry. The beings he had stood by time and time, protected from those who threatened to kill them had turned against them despite the fact they did all they could to insure they live. It was at that point Optimus tossed away his morals, deciding to not save humanity for once and let them suffer the consequences. But fortunately Cade was able to restore those morals and showed Optimus that there were still humans worth protecting, leading him to go off to face his creators to insure they would not harm Earth.
I'll admit that was my mistake, I guess I still remember the more... I'm going to say younger Bumblebee that I forget that he's not a Scout anymore.
Well an example would be how he questioned why they needed to save the humans and the fact he stated how he and the rest of the Autobots weren't happy about the fact that the Government was hiding facts from them and hadn't revealed all of their Cybertronian discoveries.
I had honestly forgotten about that moment. I guess to reword it properly, he's the kindest when it comes to how he treats his teammates. Well now that I think about it, that could be debatable considering Drift doesn't really lash out unless angered such as when Bumblebee tried to fight him for his comments and when Hound suggested cramming a grenade down his throat. So I guess maybe Drift really is the kindest out of the four.
Oh I guess you are right, the movie never did make mention. Hopefully something they'll fix in the future.
Optimus' decision to abandon humanity and leave them to suffer for their consequences. He was the only one that wasn't on board with the plan to leave the humans to die, evident by the fact he intercepted Joshua's transmission and pointed out how they could easily get to China with the ship. But he never objected to Optimus' orders since he did wait for Optimus to give the orders to go to China.
I wouldn't completely say that, at least for the ship's part. My dad when he was still alive served in the navy when I was very young; he was part of the ship's engineer crew, aka a mechanic. As a engineer he was required to know the ship's workings in case of repair and to insure everything runs smoothly. So Crosshairs having knowledge of a ships workings and traps could indicate that he has had experience with ships before. Though I will admit I can't say this with certainty since I am speculating on traits that I noticed he possessed.
Really? I hadn't watched the movie in a while so my memory was admittedly fuzzy.
I wouldn't say they were just things they just did. Sometimes actions can reveal one's thoughts and type of personality. It's part of the "show, don't tell" rule in writing. Not all actions though can reveal this though which is why it must be balanced out with dialogues and interactions. AoE has taken a step in the right directions since we did get some interactions. Though not that many since they saved most of those for either the humans or the scenes with Cade and Optimus. Hopefully we continue to get more of these interactions, one of them that desperately needs it is with Bumblebee and Hot Rod since they are suppose to be Brothers in Arms but we will need moments and development to show this and not simply be told and expect to believe it.
I would clarify that Bumblebee is definitely still functioning as a scout, even past the first film, even without having been explicitly referred to as one yet.
Yes, he was undeniably scouting out Earth in the hunt for the AllSpark during the first film.
But then in the second and third films he was still on the forefront of the team's objectives. He played a BIG part in finding the Matrix and, to a lesser but still proactively forward mobilizing degree, also played an important role in helping Sam & Simmons uncover what was going on with the Pillars on the Moon.
But, even more directly to the point of Bumblebee being a scout, I would direct your attention to the Autobots infiltration of KSI. Who is it they send in first? Yep, that's Bumblebee the scout.
Firstly, you somehow managed to quote my post under someone else's name.
What I was referencing was the ever-increasing downtime devoted to the Transformers onscreen which shows them in non-combat situations, fleshing out their characters apart from them simply being warriors, which the first movie didn't really have that much of due to budgetary constraints, mystique, etc.
But even the first film still had moments dedicated to the service of expanding on them as "living, thinking machines." We saw 'Bee bonding with Sam and trying to help hook him up with Mikaela, his temper tantrum and ego when Mikaela insulted his alt. mode, his surrendering to torture and experimentation rather than harming humans, the introduction of the whole team in the alley when they each got to show off key personality traits (along with further character moments at Sam's house), etc.
And that's the movie with the LEAST noncombat, character scenes!
Later installments also brought us the bickering of the Twins, an exploration of the leadership structure of the Autobots and N.E.S.T., the leadership dynamics of the Decepticons aboard the Nemesis, Sam and Bumblebee's talk about college, Prime's lecture to Sam about leadership and responsibility, 'Bee talking Sam down from turning himself in, the moment Sam shared with the Primes, etc. And then on to the THIRD film with Wheelie & Brains hanging out and watching TV and taking offense at being treated like pets, later even helping to rally the troops and earn respect by turning the tide of the battle, Sam and 'Bee reconnecting and hanging out, the Autobots training troops at N.E.S.T. HQ, their meeting with Mearing, Prime meeting Buzz Aldrin, the Decepticons convening in Africa, Optimus and Sentinel discussing the war and leadership, etc., etc., etc.
And THAT is just the stuff from the first three films that leaps to mind immediately and which I feel like typing out for you right now.
The point is that there are PLENTY of scenes showing the Autobots (and even a few with the Decepticons) as being more than just warriors. Would I like to see more? SURE! And I'd argue that that's exactly what we've gotten with each successive film.
Likewise, if you want to really harp on the point about Transformer character DEVELOPMENT beyond simple, one-note archetypes, I point you again to the earlier points about Optimus and they depth and range of his character explored in TF:AoE. Same goes for Bumblebee in that film, too. He was always just kind of vicariously young through his bonding with Sam, but hearing him actually compared to a child by Drift, seeing more of his temper tantrums, and Optimus bonding with Cade over the irresponsibility of their "children" really develops 'Bee to a greater degree by pinning it all on HIM.
More to the point of this thread in general, I expect that we'll see a GREAT deal more character development in Bumblebee's spin-off movie since he'll likely be pretty much the only Autobot involved and will probably be struggling with his newfound status as Knight, perhaps even as a leader again. The movies have only gotten better and better on the point of character development for the key characters so I see no reason to expect that trend to not continue.
I wouldn't agree with any of that, nor are you paraphrasing me accurately.
The CGI has always been top-of-the-line, even with what few glitches and errors there are sprinkled throughout the entire series.
And acknowledging the fact that the human cast has completely changed between the third and fourth films while the narrative continues forward without them, and therefore calling it a "soft-reboot," is NOT the same as "pushing it under false pretenses" or anything being "broken," ffs.
By the same token, every single film in the franchise to date could be called a "soft-reboot." At no point do you ever REALLY need to know anything about any of the characters, for any given installment, that each individual film doesn't make sure you know within the first 20 or so minutes.
These films are consistently audience-friendly and making sure people know that the fourth film is STILL a good starting point is no different.
Yeah no doubt, but in AOE the lack of Transformations for several characters, bodies that don't look they do transform, and the aging terribly cubeformer effect, were all changes that were hard to explain.
I don't remember exactly where the soft reboot talk even came from, from what i do remember, it was the producers or Paramount that first touted it, then Bay started talking about how it would be different in style to the trilogy, then the media jumped all over it and started calling it a "soft reboot." I feel that was intentional tactics on behalf of Paramount to get people's interest back, or woo new people. Then after it got out of hand, bay did start to state in interviews that it was definitely not a reboot. Perhaps worried about the backlash when people saw it was just the "same old shit", to turn a phrase...
Just as well really, there's not much to know!
Yeah i guess. It's easy to be put of a movie sequel if you feel you're entering in halfway through the story. But Transformers are pretty much separate stories anyway, so why the sudden panic with AOE?
Typical, irrelevant, shit-stirring snark aside, I will now address the REST of your post.
Except they weren't.
"Transformium" and whiny fans clamoring for "more robot screentime!" pretty much covers it.
It was producer Lorenzo di Bonaventura who first mentioned used the term for the post-trilogy films, if memory serves.
And Bay rightly corrected him, because it wasn't a reboot. Which is where the "soft-" element comes in, except its still a stupid term.
Hence, this discussion.
And it WASN'T really "the same old shit." As you and Bay both noted, it was indeed a "different style," with more humanoid Transformers, a single parent as the primary human character, Optimus seeking to abandon Earth, kill a human, "The Rules Have Changed," the Knighthood Theme in overdrive, a non-Decepticon bounty hunter and even lethally-aggressive human as antagonists, new musical collaborators, and HELL we even finally got the Dinobots and the first promise of a REAL origin story for the Transformers themselves!
It was definitely several different dynamics at work with the fourth film.
As I already mentioned, none of the human cast was returning and it WAS the fourth film in a series.
And a producer telling paparazzi that the fourth movie is a "soft-reboot" in an on-the-spot, offhand comment is HARDLY a "sudden panic," ffs.
Hey come on, be nice. Everything I wrote was in good humour. Right, now I'll go back and read the rest of your post...
Weren't what? Hard to explain? OMFG, explainable or not, are you actually accepting no less than 3 criticisms of a TF movie in single sentence!! What a day!
Haha, I always play nice. OMG the shit I'd say otherwise...
That said, allegedly "in good humor" or not, you self-admittedly quite often "poke the bear," as you say, and frequently seem to ignore the point ACTUALLY being made simply for the sake of allowing yourself a false-opening to do so.
Your most recent post being yet another sterling example.
I wasn't "accepting no less than three criticisms of a TF movie," I was refuting them with the obvious explanations.
There's obviously only so much CGI money to go around per movie, so if people want more 'bot time onscreen then they're going to have to accept that certain "cheats" will be involved. It's the same reason some transformations have ALWAYS taken place largely (and sometimes entirely) offscreen, since the very first film.
And, again, Transformium explains the rest, and IN CONTINUITY, no less.
Yeah I can agree with you there. using "soft" as a prefix for pretty much anything renders the following word irrelevant! Soft Ice is not ice, soft
porn is just chicks in pants, and soft rock is something i don't know what but most definitely not rock , and it's an oxymoron.
I can agree with a lot of that, there's a lot of stuff in AOE i like, or at least accept, things that caught my attention in ways 2 and 3 failed to. But the basic construction of the movie is not so far removed. My first "same old shit moment" was when we were denied the fight between Op and Lockdown, and instead we spent most of the time in the car listening to the movies only genuinely shit character suck his own dick. Up until then i was
really onboard. Even with the silly dialogue.
But trust me, as much as I understand its flaws, I really don't have the appetite to dismantle AOE, and I hope TLK builds on its merits.
I'm trying to think how we can steer this back to the Bee movie, without seeming to obvious about it.
Yeah, we should really hook up on youtube someday!
I think you're giving me too much credit. Quite often it's very likely that i've simply missed the point entirely.
Separate names with a comma.