Discussion in 'Transformers 3rd Party Discussion' started by unicron nemesis, Aug 1, 2016.
And today I learned of the existence of the Robertson screw.
was the adapter missing oe the whole hammer?
does not compute...
Yeah. Pretty sure there's chrome on at least Prime, Ironhide, Ratchet and Hot Rod, and they all look just fine to most of us I think.
Hotrod and Ironhide had a large issue of chrome flaking off, atleast on the first run of both. Maybe subsequent ones were better
The comment was that chrome "looks like shite" on mp's- didn't mention quality control issues.
The problem with chrome is that it makes a figure look like a shitty knockoff if the seam lines aren't taken care of. I would've preferred more use of the metallic paint that inferno has.
I'm in the "prefer no chrome" group myself. I don't care to replicate G1 toys with their chrome that had its share of problems then and chrome always will unless there's a clearcoat over it which I don't think works for chrome. It's just more trouble than it's worth in many cases, especially if it's not done perfectly. I'll take paint apps over chrome any day.
FYI ...you can definitely use Future for chrome parts. I did it right out of the box for: Ironhide, Ratchet & Hotrod. As well as Huffer's chest and thighs. Worked perfectly.
So ... after still being randomly unable to tab the backpack in with the legs seemingly correctly transformed, I finally sat down and took a long hard look at why that is. It turns out the front of the backpack (towards the front of the truck) is molded to the shape of the knees, and is probably rubbing right up against them.
That means it's no longer enough to have the legs correctly transformed at 90 degree angles and the hip ratchets set correctly. You also have to make sure the new leg extensions are EXACTLY the length they need to be, and probably some other bullshit I'm missing.
The design story of Terraegis and Artifex can pretty much be summed up as "lol, who needs proper tolerances?" ... but this is some next level stupidity. There is no good reason for the backpack to be shaped like that -- it could be literally any shape they wanted, and they chose the one that makes him way harder to transform. (Also: what tow truck has a bed that's shaped like that?)
On the upside, there is a reliable way to tell if it's in correctly: the backpack has to tab in firmly at the back. If not, something's wrong. Even then, you might still have issues clipping the sides in.
True. I contacted MMC. They told me that the transformation is very difficile and that I should see their video review for reference. Unfortunately they don't show the transformation to alt mode... for a good reason I guess.
I returned that frustrating unit.
Nothing against you specifically, but posts like this sometimes make me want to say "Go design Transformers yourself then." I don't know why decisions were made or why something was designed a certain way, and I honestly doubt you do either. To sit here and bag on a figure and designer because we apparently are better designers always gives me a chuckle. I guess we should be designing them. I understand frustration over odd choices we think we see, but flat out sounding like we'd do it better is also frustrating to me. The designer of Terraegis and Artifex USED to be active in these threads until posts like these made by armchair transforming figure pros, and its sad that we run people who are trying to make cool stuff available to us off. Again, not just you. Others have ranted about figures too. Apologies for picking on your post- it just makes the hobby less fun I guess. BTW, I have both Terraegis and Artifex, and I've not had any issues transforming either of them. They take time and precision, but they work.
That's an awful lot of salt. You don't have to be a designer to point out flaws on a figure. I'm pretty sure most of us in this thread have handled enough toys to have reasonable ideas and opinions about how different materials could've been used.
I agree with Xcandescent, they could have added more space in the backpack walls and thinned them out a bit. A more flexible plastic would make the backpack transformation a bit easier as well. They also could have made the shoulder wings/undercarriage cover fold into a less obtrusive armor piece.
It's not a bad figure, but the flaws are there. There is room for improvement.
Yeah- I probably was a little too harsh overall- as much a reaction to how the comments feel like a downer generally I guess as to his specific post. I just try to keep in mind that many of these figures represent someone's hard work- some may even be proverbial "labors of love" as it were- then we come in here and almost attack them and even disparage them. Probably also a reaction to the ridiculousness going on on social media since the election here in the States last fall. People are all sorts of negative and mean to where I'll barely go on Facebook these days. Maybe his post triggered some of that, lol. I come here to "check out" and think about how great it was being a kid- when we get too serious it kinda kills that. My apologies.
One of the runners came off the peg, and the only way I could get it to stay on was to squeeze it back on with a pipe wrench. I saw no sign of glue around the peg ... and the shape of the peg/hole, combined with the amount of force needed to get them locked back together implies that fucking around with a wrench is pretty close to the actual assembly process.
I mean ... this shouldn't surprise anyone at this point. I already figured that the windows weren't glued in, and the runners were always prone to wiggling, which implied lack of (or really crappy) glue. But given how critical the runners are to keeping the back leg panel tight, it's disturbing that they aren't secured better.
Also: what do you call a long piece of plastic with one loose attachment point in the center? An accidental lever. Of course the runner is going to eventually lever itself off the peg -- it's physics.) You can split the difference here between bad design and bad manufacturing.
It's a $90 product.
It doesn't matter that something is a "labor of love". Anything creative is a labor of love (though often under duress). I assume most 3rd party figures (that aren't bootlegs) are designed by people who are super psyched about the thing they're making.
None of that keeps the final product from being an expensive pile of crap. (See also: movies, TV, video games ... any media, really. Not to mention failed Kickstarters.)
I spent a lot of money on a thing that's not good, and that means I get to warn other people about my experiences. If they still want to buy it, at least they'll know what they're getting into.
There's another conversation to be had about how spending tons of money on a 3rd party figure does not guarantee even a minimal level of quality on the engineering or manufacturing side, and about how much of a crap shoot buying 3rd party tends to be -- even from the same manufacturer. Frankly, the only defense collectors have against that are honest criticisms from other collectors. I won't buy a 3rd party figure without checking out a couple of video reviews and reading some posts -- and even then, I'll sometimes pick up a dud like this.
It's OK. I understand.
Calling someone's hard work 'next level stupidity' is a bit like saying someone's song they wrote is garbage, or that their girlfriend is ugly. It can be a real downer, and sometimes seem mean-spirited, but dude does have a point - that with 3P especially, we need unbiased opinions and reviews for the rest of us to know what we're getting into. It's honestly important. Posts like that are important and needed. It's a fine like that we all have to walk between being honest and informative and being a schmuck.
I don't know how any of the guys who make these things can have anything to do with this board and its members. I'm sure getting feedback is helpful to an extent, but you gotta have skin thick as castle walls.
Agreed 100% I hate that we tend towards a polorized best thing ever or P.O.S. attitude at times. I was thinking of picking this up and I appreciate the honest points of view being expressed which has led me to believe that whilst I'm not overjoyed with my badcube Hoist I didn't miss out on an exceptional figure here.
As far as my BC goes, I'm disappointed too. I painted the white legs, forcefield generator and arms so he looks better to me but I was considering buying this one too.
As it stands now, I'll wait and see if a TT one is forthcoming. I thank all those who give their honest viewpoints, please note that this does not include the "worst POS ever" crowd as if you don't say what your qualms are I don't know if it's something I'll care about.
Going to the girlfriend comparison, it's like, most girls don't find me attractive and that's fine. My wife does and that's what counts to me
I called the backpack issue on Artifex "next level stupidity", because it was literally the worst possible choice they could have made. To understand why, you need to be super familiar with how Artifex and Terraegis actually work.
When I say "tolerance issues", what I mean is that the base figures were designed with no room for error -- both in manufacturing, and in transformation. Both of my figures have knees that literally scrape the insides of the front windows, which indicates that the base design either did not have proper spacing, or did not take into account sloppy manufacturing. (It's probably a bit of both -- but it's worth emphasizing the design errors, because tolerance issues show up again and again at every step of the transformation.)
Anyway, both figures share a tolerance issue with regards to the legs. In order for the door panels and the backpack to tab in properly, the legs and hips have to be transformed in a really specific, really exact fashion. The knees have to be folded up at exact right angles, the knee plates have to be completely pressed up against the legs, and the half-knee bit next to the windows has to be as close to horizontal as possible (taking into account that the lack of spacing will cause the front windows to push it down as you try to get the legs in, which usually means you have to pull the leg back out, readjust that piece, and try again. Also, the front windows will probably pop off as you're doing this.)
Because the knees are friction joints with no stops, there is no obvious tactile guide to tell you when you've done the knees properly; you have to be super exact visually and cross your fingers. The metal heels being able to completely and securely wrap around the back is a good clue, but it's not always reliable -- the heels can wrap, but the knees could still be at the wrong angle.
A better design either would not require that kind of precision, or would add stops and other tactile guides so that you can feel that you've done it correctly. (Contrast this with how Takara does their Masterpiece figures -- there is always a certain amount of tactile and/or visual feedback that tells you when you've done things correctly.)
Additionally, the hips have to be perfectly parallel with the spine, and the spine itself has to be perfectly straight -- both of which are difficult, because there is a pin joint in the spine right next to the hip ratchets which tends to be super loose. You usually have to directly rotate the hips and spine piece into place, because they won't do it by themselves from just transforming the legs (which again: design flaw. No spine pin, no issue.)
So you already have to jump through a pile of hoops to get the legs and the backpack pegged in. Thankfully on Terraegis, you don't have to worry about hitting anything inside the backpack, because it's a big empty space. If you do the legs and hips properly, chances are everything will line up and pegging in the backpack won't be too much of a problem (taking into account that you have to unpeg the bottom of the legs to get the truck sides to wrap around and peg into the backpack, then repeg the bottom again while hopefully not jostling everything out of place ... which is a pain, but doable with practice).
Artifex has (at least) two mold changes which make things way worse. First, he has a backpack that is literally molded to the shape of the knees. There is no good reason for this. Tow trucks don't look like that, and if it's based on the animation, that is a detail you don't want to imitate. (I mean, Terraegis isn't a tall, vaguely squarish truck like the cartoon, so I assume that they actually wanted their truck to look like its real life counterpart.)
Second, the upper legs on Artifex extend and collapse to make him shorter than Terraegis. That extension changes where the knees are in vehicle mode, and there's no obvious way to tell exactly how long or short they need to be to line up with the backpack. (On mine, there's at least a millimeter or so of play.)
Putting that backpack and those legs on a base figure that already has tolerance and manufacturing issues makes getting Artifex pegged into truck mode a complete crap shoot. Transforming the legs and hips properly is no longer a guarantee of success, and it's impossible to tell what you're hitting inside the backpack, because you can't see through it. Even if you could tell ... how exactly could you deal with it? If it's bad manufacturing or assembly, it's entirely possible that you'll never have enough room to peg the backpack in. If not ... are you going to keep retransforming the legs and backpack over and over until you get sick of it and give up? Or are you OK with a backpack kind of loosely hanging off the back, with gaps over the truck sides, on a $90 figure?
So yeah. They deliberately chose the worst option, and now everyone who buys this thing has to live with it.
I'm waiting for this terra and artifex. Have Speedbump and Lorry already and I'm ok with them for the most part except not a fan of their knees.
Seems like alot of frustration about artifex, but going to give them a chance once they come in. Will report back in when they arrive...
Granted, I only transformed him once back to truck before becoming a bot forever...and I know he isn't "technically" toon accurate, but I love this guy:
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