My final words about the TF films

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by SC0RP0N0K, Jul 12, 2009.

  1. Sizzle

    Sizzle Sparkabot

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    I know it's been said before, but you aren't gifted with the ability to write good analogies. Perhaps you shouldn't do it anymore.

    Now that that's out of the way...

    I'm going to really have to take issue with your point that supposedly every character named the same name has always had the same "core characteristics" as the previous. (I suppose you could be forgiven for thinking this since you've literally watched and read NOTHING OTHER THAN G1, but that's a whole 'nother issue.) There are really quite a few exceptions to what you've said, Bumblebee being only just one of them.

    Starscream, for instance, has been very divergent. He has, at sundry times, been batshit crazy, super-intelligent, disloyal, extremely loyal, crafty, stupid, and even heroic from time to time. (And by the way...THAT'S JUST IN G1 FICTION ALONE. You should really read all about him in Armada. It'll blow your mind.)

    Then of course there's Ironhide, who has been a young cadet in a couple of continuities (that, again, you haven't deigned to read.)

    The only two Transformers who have stayed pretty much static are Optimus and Megatron--and they are exactly as they have always been in both movies as well.

    As for your glowing appraisal of Captain America, the argument has already been made about the Comics Code, which you have incorrectly dismissed as the reason for his pacifism. (I'd also cite piss-poor writing, but that's just me.) And yes, I did read the vampire story arc back in the day. Did you happen to watch Beast Wars at all?

    Thank goodness that Prime isn't like Captain America, who is THE most boring character in all of comics IMHO.

    Your assessment and vision of Optimus Prime, unfortunately, has not typically been carried out even in G1 fiction, much less any other continuities. If you think of G1 in particular, you'd have to remember that Optimus Prime chose to kill EVERYONE aboard the Ark by crashing it into the Earth. So not only did he decide to kill the Decepticons, but he also considered himself and his fellow Autobots an acceptable loss to keep their enemies from prevailing.

    As for the prison and containment thing... are you high? Yeah, remember what happened the last time a Decepticon escaped from containment? Mission City, much??? And hell, Megatron has proven that not even the deepest trench in the ocean can keep him down. Aside from that, Optimus has no choice but to follow Earthen laws (which is very G1 of him, by the way) and if the humans say that the Decepticons must be taken out, then that's that!

    Personally, I cheered during this scene. It sent shivers up my spine.

    As for your thread, overall, I thought you started out civilly enough, but you were the one that got unnerved when people gave you actual valid arguments. Then you started coming unhinged and accusing people of being brownshirts and ZOMG UR HITLERING MAH IDEEEUHHHZZZ!!!!!! Seriously, people are owning some of your ideas because they're wrong. Take what they say into consideration, rather than doing what you're doing which is essentially being defensive because you don't want to be wrong.

    A couple of your points were decent, in all fairness.
     
  2. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

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    That's not true either. Prime has always been similar to past versions, but not identical. He was a total noob in Animated, for example.
    I think it all went downhill after he compared Optimus Prime to a serial rapist.
     
  3. Easy-E

    Easy-E Active Member

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    SC0RPONOK this is a great thread. You hit it right on the money.
     
  4. Sizzle

    Sizzle Sparkabot

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    True. I forgot that one. I will go and self-flagellate now as penance.

    And for the record, Primal and BW Megs are not included in that generalization either.

    Long story short, this thread fails.
     
  5. Aran

    Aran Well-Known Member

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    a) do you even know me in RL to even assume I am like that? I just said I support the good guys in this MOVIE VERSE STORYLINE in that they SHOULD DO WHATEVER IT TAKES to kill the CONS.

    b) so IT IS JUSTIFIED & FINE that Obi Wan can cut off his legs but still leave him alive? Leave him to live in misery without legs for the rest of his life is fine in your definition I guess?

    c) See you are contradicting yourself when you say Yoda & the rest of the Jedi CAN KILL when they are in CLEAR & PRESENT DANGER. So Demolishor going thru Shanghai IS NOT A CLEAR & PRESENT DANGER TO THE HUMANS THAT ARE DRIVING IN THEIR RESPECTIVE CARS?

    So you'd PREFER that Prime just tell Demolishor TO PULL OVER SO THEY CAN DISCUSS TERMS & CONDITIONS?

    YEAH, LET'S DO THAT SCORPONOK.

    I didnt pay to sit & watch Prime & company having a chitchat with the Cons at a park or something.
     
  6. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

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    Actually, he did tell Demolishor to pull over. Thank goodness the writers knew better than to have Demolishor actually do that though. As a movie, that would suck. So would spending the needed time to explain a Transformer prison instead of, for example, putting in the forest battle.

    BTW, here's a little Hollywood writing logic on what would happen if Prime did spare Demolishor at the end of the fight. Per the usual Hollywood rules, if the hero spares the wounded and apparently subdued villain, it automatically turns out that the villain was faking it and will attack as soon as the hero lets down his guard. Then either Prime would still end up having to kill him, or Prime would get killed right there instead of in the forest. Lame. It's better the way it is.
     
  7. Trell

    Trell Paladin

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    Yeah really, I remember this.

    Question though Scorponok:

    How is incapicitating your enemy cutting his legs off?

    And didn't he cut his left arm off too?

    I'm sure if I was severing your legs, I'd expect you to die HORRIBLY!!! Also after watching you burn alive next to a RIVER OF LAVA!!!!

    With 1 arm :) 
     
  8. Trell

    Trell Paladin

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    This^^^
     
  9. Blackout26

    Blackout26 Member

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    Well, for one I love the movie.
    I understand that G1 adepts are disappointed and that the need of going deeper into the story by the film-makers must be primordial.
    But hey, that's the situation with many franchises. X-men, Fantastic Four, Hulk and other franchises portraited in motion pictures fall greatly to this in-depht researching.
    My opinion is that comic books' and cartoon series' stories cannot be entirely respected in making a movie. A movie's market is a whole lot bigger IMO. It has to appeal to a much larger audience and has to be successfull at that. The rest is simple logic.
     
  10. Opticron Primal

    Opticron Primal Comin' up OOOs!

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    Your sig intrigues me, Scorponok...

    Alot of fans who like the movie can admit that even though they liked it, it was far from perfect. Myself included.

    I mean, yeah, you can admit that G1 wasn't perfect either, but your still comparing the movies to it. G1 Prime and Movie Prime are 2 completely different versions of the character. The movies are more violent and war-like. Like countless other members have posted, the Decepticons here are ruthless killing machines that don't give a rat's ass who they kill. What's apprehending them gonna do? Nothing.

    Prime told Demolishor to pull over. He didn't. He paid the price. If NEST did apprehend him, where in the living hell are they gonna keep him? At the NEST base? With the government already concerned about the Autobot's presence? No.

    Put them in a containment area on another planet? Maybe if they had, you know, a ship to use? Or perhaps if any of the Autobots could fly?

    Try to think some things out for once.
     
  11. Brutus

    Brutus Autobot

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    All of these discussions come down to a simple conclusion. You either like the movie-verse or you don't. If you do, great. If you don't, great. However, there's a difference in the posts for each. Those that enjoy the movie-verse make positive posts about what they liked and that supports Transformers as a whole. Those that don't like the movie-verse make every argument possible as to why it is wrong, and those posts are negative.

    Constructive criticism is good, but, complaining about something, just to complain because "you didn't like it that way," doesn't get anyone or the franchise anywhere.
     
  12. kidnicky

    kidnicky Well-Known Member

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    Cool story,bro. Sorry they changed a cartoon that's been changed 10 times before.
     
  13. sideswipe45

    sideswipe45 AUTOBOT

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    was one of the greastest movies i've ever seen!
     
  14. Malikon

    Malikon Well-Known Member

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    The characters are different in almost every continuity. Jetfire in G1, Jetfire in Cybertron, Jetfire in Movie'verse. I don't get this, "they were always the same character, prime had honor and believed in life, etc."

    I have honor and believe in life too, I'm not Prime.

    They're almost always different characters sharing a common name, I don't see why it's so hard for people to accept that. It's a shame some people can't just forget all the other series and try to appreciate the movies as if TF's never existed and they're a new thing. They're far from perfect, but they're fun. Just like every single other TF series, (almost.)

    Movie Prime is unlike any other Prime. He's a badass, he's actually scary. I wouldn't want to hang out with that guy. Did you see the look on his face when he's telling the Gvt Prick, "What if you're wrong?" That was a scary look!

    Just enjoy it for what it is, or move on. All these non-stop threads of super hyper emo bitching is getting to be ridiculously excessive. All these point for point posts on this board trying to find fault in every single little thing in the movies, when every other series has it's faults, plot holes, weak/stupid episodes, etc. This is nothing new. Every couple years some new TF's and TF series comes out, you either like it or you don't. But jeez, non-stop weeks of tearing apart the movie is really starting to just become completely pathetic. It's a fun movie, just like G1 is fun, just like Beast Wars is fun, just like Animated is fun. If you're not having fun, then go somewhere and do something else that IS fun, and let the people who enjoy the movie *gasp* Actually Enjoy The Movie. Why is bitching about things you will never, ever be able to change going to help anything? That's sure not fun.

    Also:

    Jazz is dead
    Blackout will not be Leader sized


    Now can we all have fun with our toys please? :D 
     
  15. RoastDude

    RoastDude Constructicon

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    Even Sideways? Who was killed for just being there?
     
  16. Sizzle

    Sizzle Sparkabot

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    Also, can you imagine how many lives would have been SAVED if Obi-Wan had killed Anakin? How many people did Darth Vader go on to kill? Hell, if Obi-Wan had done the right thing, the ENTIRE PLANET OF ALDERAAN would've likely survived.

    That's what gets me about about all these "super heroes" and their moral code against killing. How many people in the DC universe have died because Batman won't kill the Joker? He subdues him, locks him in Arkham, a facility that apparently has the most laughable security because complete loons are ALWAYS escaping it. And then he gets out, kills another ten or twelve people, rinse and repeat.

    How many people in the DCU died because Superman didn't have the balls to finish off villains like Lex Luthor, Darkseid, or countless others. They almost always end up captured, but they invariably escape to kill again. You tell me, if you lived in their universe, wouldn't you be just a little pissed at the fact that countless thousands were being killed all because of a super-hero's cockamamie ethical code?

    Hell, the Punisher couldn't even do his job half the time because of goofballs like Spider-Man trying to hunt him down to keep him from killing people who were going to harm others.

    That's one reason I've always respected the Transformers in general. They were usually (apart from Prime suddenly becoming a moron in "Megatron's Master Plan") willing to slag some Decepticons to save humanity.
     
  17. Aran

    Aran Well-Known Member

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    ^ This!
     
  18. Lady Owl

    Lady Owl Decepticon Art Slave

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    I saw Beast Wars a bit growing up but I was too young at the time or not even born yet to have seen and enjoyed G1 (though I can now and I love it) but the movie was what finally pushed me over completely into the fandom because I like realistic robots... a lot.

    G1 is great but the human faces of a lot of the robots bother me too much which is why Optimus, Soundwave, Wheeljack, and Shockwave were more my style and favs. Surprisingly I liked Megatron a lot, though. Guess it is just his charm and like the smartest bad guy I have ever seen.

    So I just wanted to give you some background on my own experiences with Transformers and, like you, despite our likes and dislikes, we can still love or hate something regardless and be civil about it.

    I can completely accept that the robots aren't shown as much in the movies. As sad as it is and it does really suck, I just can't expect these hard working people to work even more. I think the movie would take so much longer to come out... which actually I'd love if they would take an extra year or even two just so we could have a proper "robot" movie that actually makes the main focus on the robots.

    I am also not really a fan of Bay. He feels like a double edged sword for me. I like his movies. I love action and I guess I play too many video games with war and fighting and explosives that they don't bother me or I don't even notice there is "too much" going on. Just feels like normal entertainment for me.... HOWEVER... the games I do play and love also focus on story and characters a LOT... so even though I don't feel there is ever too many explosions, I do notice a huge lack in character development and plot in these movies... or at least a lot more in the second movie the "charm" was missing for me.

    I can't say I agree so much on the characters. For some reason it doesn't bother me if the characters don't match perfectly in every incarnation. G1 was G1. Animated was Animated. Sure it was like "Wow... Prime in Animated is a noob" but that is this Prime in that world and he doesn't always have to be the same exact Prime or always look 100% the same to be likable and enjoyed.

    I will argue that point even more because for once, I actually like Starscream. G1 Starscream was for the lulz for me. He was never anything serious I cared for, however movie Starscream has become my absolute favorite. He shares "similar" traits but has become much more then the original. A more likable character for me so the change is actually welcoming. Same with Bumblebee. He was dumb in G1 but actually likable in Animated and in the movie.

    So I don't really know what to tell you other then try and like them for what they are. Things don't always have to be the same. If this was a G1 movie, I would expect everything to be G1 and perfect but as you mentioned at the end of your post, it is more like "using" existing characters and basic personalities and names and making a new world for them. Familiar grounds but something new. Something that is more realistic. G1 was over exaggerate at times or more friendly so making the characters grow and feel more mature is ok. Nothing wrong with that and in many cases, some characters became better because of that.
     
  19. SC0RP0N0K

    SC0RP0N0K Well-Known Member

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    I am keeping my promise not to discuss the movie anymore since I've said everything numerous times before. It still shocks me that people can think that doing nothing is an actual option for a hero to make when I said that heroes don't kill unless they have no other options. And it really shocks me that someone can think I've equated Prime with a mass-murderer eventhough I NEVER said that in ANY post. It wouldn't be enough for me to make a new thread. However I do however take offense to this quote. I will fully admit that when I said that I can see how another poster equated some Bayfans to brownshirts that I was a bit annoyed. I wasn't annoyed that people were debating my thoughts though. It stemmed from people simply calling me an idiot without any discourse on the subject I was presenting. One post was simply a picture that stated "my stupidity killed the internet" or some stupid shit like that. To the people who argued valid points and did so with respect I offered them the same response. I have no doubt that some of what I've said may be wrong, just point it out in a respectful manner. Don't misquote me, don't put words into my mouth, which is what has happened EVERY time I've made used an example.

    This also goes for my sig, it was made AFTER the personal attacks and is aimed at the Bayfans that can't understand that people have problems with the movie and resort to stupid personal attacks in order to defend it. What is extremely sad is I kinda enjoyed the movie, some of it was pretty cool, but I had HUGE problems with it that I thought I could discuss here without being the target of hate filled posts.
     
  20. Sizzle

    Sizzle Sparkabot

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    I agree that the "stupidity" picture was a bit out of line.

    The unfortunate aspect of the internet is the fact that it contains MANY people who only see the person they are arguing with as a couple of words on the screen. To them, they are only arguing with their computer, not a thinking and feeling person. If this thread were, say, a debate at Botcon, it would've no doubt been more personable and polite. (I think.)

    I've been training over the past year to deal with culture shock, as I'm planning on moving overseas in a couple of months to a completely different culture. One of the things that has been emphasized is that there will be times when people around me will make me angry. But it has been further emphasized that if I act on my anger and express it, it will get me absolutely nowhere...in fact, I'd be likely to lose a lot of face, because the people I'm around, by custom, rarely show their anger. I'm trying (and generally failing at times) to apply that here on these boards as well.

    Anyway, this fan isn't trying to be a brownshirt to you. Ignore people who bait you, but be receptive to people who might actually have a point. :)