A sissie who never had to deal with a satanic roller-coaster causing big trouble in little China.

 

SC0RP0N0K, you are entitled to your opinion. You do make some fair points though.
I loved the movie, but it is still flawed. However, I was surprised at the new bada$$ery of Head Hunting Prime, and his merry band of lethal force loving warriors.
However, although various continuities have their roots in G1, I believe the movie and the show of G1 was targeted primarily toward a younger audience, (correct me if I am wrong). Although there was cartoon violence, there probably would not have been any execution style killings. Yes, Prime was somewhat hesitant to bust Megatron's a$$. He most likely wanted to apprehend Megatron, not kill him. That was the 80s.

Now, let's come into the year 2009. For some reason, kids love violent these days. Videogames, TV, Movies, etc. Transformers is a time of war, and Bay, an action movie director, has targeted the movie toward young adults. 17-early twenties, in my opinion. It is a live action movie, there are real people, just like us in those movies, PRime has a reason to be violent, he is protecting his new home. While I am not sure, and do not care about the whole NEST/SHanghai thing, the stakes are raised. Prime definitely hates the war, and it has probably strained him, or done sometin to him. How would the audience respond if, in an action movie, Prime was in battle and decided to give the Decepticon another chance. Everyone would lose their mind, I don't think pleasantries and niceties have a place in an action movie. People want explosions, and giant robots ripping each other apart and blowing each other up. They are, for the most part, content when they get it.
Not that I don't like the Decepticons, I freakin love them, but still, it wouldn't seem right if the two sides kept battling, and the autobots were always weaker, always losing, always retreating. It would get quite old, quite fast.

 

I am not taking sides, although I do lean one way over the other. But I have make this comment:

Megatron did not set out to attack Mission City. He went there after Lennox's BRILLIANT idea to "hide" the All Spark in a densely populated US City where Alien War Machines, fueled by completing their mission and destruction, would follow looking for it. What's worse was the The Secretary of Defense was acting like a child who got his first star sticker, "YES, GOOD!"

This is not to say that Megs should have chucked the Cadillac ESX SUV in the air after landing or plowing through an office building. I am simply saying that Megs did not attack the city unprovoked. He was hunting the All Spark, and casualities ensued.

 

They really need to lump all of these threads into one giant sticky. It's been nothing but the same stale diatribe (from both sides) for the last 2 years.

 

And threads like this will still pop up. You really can't do anything to control it.

 

With wizard powers you can.

 

This was a very funny thread and I thought it deserved it's own. I made this critique after the third movie and I continue to stick with it.

Michael Bay opinion of the 1986 movie is well known; basically he can't sit through 10 minutes of it because of it's poor composition. Even though I enjoy it I understand his qualm it's OK for a fan, but will turn away a good amount of people based on appeal.

I don't think that he escapes his criticism. He really does make a movie that is hard to watch. He has made a movie that is appeal to a crowd that is much larger than the fan base, but that doesn't mean that he made a good movie he's made it good enough to draw people in.

I agree with the thread posters parody though. The absurdities added in Michael Bay's movie are a huge turn off and degrade the franchise. HE could have made a movie with the truly great effects, but without the asinine humor, which is what this all boils down to. You thought this franchise was successfull as it is now? Try telling a real story with respectable humor, it would blow every other franchise away!

 

Yes, but until Wizards decide to share their magics with the Muggles, we're plum out of luck ain't we?

 

What the fuck is a muggle?

 

Best not to worry about it...

 

A "Non-Magical" Person of the Harry Potter Universe. An Average Joe, if you will.
I blame my Little sister for this knowledge.

What he said.

 

Already looked it up. Interesting how the word's use evolved.

 

Just do what the Admin staff does, just ignore this forum.

 

I mostly post in Radicons, so that won't be an issue.

 

Quite extreme there bub. I've seen alot of explanation in here, and quite a bit of it wasn't 'the movie is perfect', but more or less that your reasonings don't fit the movie, or have logical conclusions based on the movieverse.

I kinda understand this, but no. Makes for too much CGI wasted on locking cons up. Maybe in part three when the cost for ILM to do this is lower, we can have more scenes like this.

We saw Demolisher Transform, cause a massive explosion and knock concrete columns onto soldiers, smack helicopters out the sky, flee, kill several people passenger cars, smash a bridge, and refuse to pull over. It's not like he transformed and put his hands up, saying i surrender. HE KILLED A BUNCH OF PEOPLE. Primes moto is that freedom is the right of all sentient beings. Demolisher took that freedom from several hundred people in a few minutes. Prime has historically not killed on camera, due to being PC. But how just would it be for him to allow Demolisher the privelege of existence, when he took that basic right from others. This killing was completely in character... he was doing what was necessary to defend the rights of others. Even when faced with death, Demolisher would not relent. He didn't ask for a second chance or anything. The basic act of fleeing indicates some degree of guilt from the Cons.

 

SC0RP0N0K, I don't have anything to add other than to say I generally agree with you. Alas, we are in the extreme minority here.

 

Consider this also, NEST simply surrounded Demolisher, not firing a single round and before NEST could even attempt anything (who knows, maybe they WOULD have negotiated), Demolisher decides to be a gigantic dick and transform, drawing first blood.

Not only that but he stuck around for a few seconds to swat some helicopters after droping debris all over NEST soldiers (presumably crushing a few).

It's only after he goes on this little rampage does NEST open fire and THEN he decides to flee when he gets tired of being pelted in the ass by bullets and rockets.

Demolisher was not innocent. Why the fuck would he immediately start tearing shit up if he was going to defect? Seems like a pretty stupid idea to gain someone's trust. Especially if they think you're the enemy still.

I'm also in the camp of Prime putting him out of his misery. Demolisher didn't look like he would make it for another 5 minutes let alone survive someone getting him to stasis or whatever little Decepticon haven you want which ultimately would have not affected the movie in anyway besides making the already uber-long movie longer and adding another plot point that probably wouldn't be revisited in the end.

Also the guy was defiant to the end, taunting Prime with the Fallen's imminent return.
If that doesn't say guilty of being a Decepticon than I don't know what does..

The only valid Decepticon arguement of innocence would be of Sideways and even then he still ran when he should have just stayed put.

Who knows, maybe Sideswipe wouldn't have sidefucked him if he didn't attempt to haul ass.

 

Dude, I think you need to watch that movie again. Oh and re-read what I said so you can understand it. I NEVER said Prime shouldn't kill. I said Prime should ONLY KILL WHEN HE HAS NO OTHER OPTION. I think Prime when into that fight with every intent to kill Megatron if he had to. "One shall stand, one shall fall" doesn't totally mean one will DIE, it means one will fall. It could mean dies, it could mean in incompacitated. Yes Kup tells Prime to finish him, but it doesn't mean Prime will do it. Again, take my example of a cop that shoots a criminal that is handcuffed on the ground. Not heroic at all...

As for the theme song well they are talking about a war, and they are talking about destroying the Decepticon force. I could easily say that the U.S. destroyed the evil forces of the Iraqis in Desert Storm but they still took prisoners.

And as far as the whole "it happened, it doesn't mater if you believe it" argument. Again, I know it happened. That's what I'm upset about. I know ultimately doesn't matter what I wished happened, or anything. I just figured it was something interesting to talk about.

You seem to mistake my "feelings for Demolisher", I could give a shit about Demolisher. I care about Prime. I think it went against his character to kill a Decepticon he had already subdued. If he would have killed Demolisher while he was rampaging through the city I wouldn't have a problem. But to execute him like he was fuckin Dirty Harry is not how Prime should do things. You see I never said anything about him killing The Fallen. The reason is he was a full on threat at the time Prime killed him. Again, I am NOT saying "Heroes never kill" or Prime is an evil mass-murderer", and frankly I have no idea where you get that I'm saying that. I am saying they don't EXECUTE people.

As far as stasis lock being like RL prison, well I've got a cousin in prison and I know if I had to be in there I wouldn't think twice about spending my time in a coma like state to avoid all the I don't know shower rapes, and surprise shankings...

See, the difference is I know full well that this is a movie and a time waster post for me, and when I'm not here I go on with my life. Your post about how the ends justify the means and how execution is perfectly ok is more than likely an extension of how you feel in real life, and that's sad. I really hope I'm wrong and you really don't feel that way, but I doubt it.

As far as Obi Wan goes. He cut off Anakin's legs. He didn't behead him. He also BEGGED Anakin to stop. He was left with no choice and yet he still only incompacitated him. When Anakin landed and got burnt seemingly to death, that's when Obi Wan left. I can't say for sure, but I'd like to believe that if Obi Wan had realized Anakin was still alive he would have tried to help him.

And with Yoda and the rest of the Jedi's, well again they were in clear and present danger and they acted accordingly. People seem to think I'm anti-killing, which I am totally not against. I just don't think a HERO would execute anyone while they were HELPLESS.

Actually yes. I do not intend to say anything when BF:3 comes out since I'm sure what's in this post will cover it. In fact this will be my last post in this thread. I think I've said everything I can, and if people still don't get what I'm saying then I really can't explain it any better.

Any more extreme than someone posting solely that "my stupidity killed the internet"? No intelligent recourse, just I'm an idiot because I don't bow down to all that is Bay. My reasonings don't fit the movie and/or movieverse because I have problems with those things, so of course they don't "fit". My reasoning is the movie doesn't "fit".

I agree that showing him being locked up might be too much waster CGI or make the film too long, but who says it has to be shown? Why can't Prime just say in the next scene that Demolisher has been captured and taken into custody? Do you see anyone objecting to that that it doesn't fit into the movieverse? No, because if they put it in the movie it fits in with the movieverse.

Again, I know full well what he did. Although I disagree that fleeing indicates guilt. I'm sure a lot of innocent black people fled from the cops back in the '50's when they were being hunted down. PLEASE DO NOT THINK I'M COMPARING DECEPTICONS TO BLACK PEOPLE. Sorry, just had to put that in there because some people wouldn't get that. Back on topic, yes, I know what he did, I know he killed countless people. I totally feel that if Prime were to have killed him while he was in the middle of said rampage or killing, then he would totally be within character. What I have a problem with is him killing him once the threat was OVER.

Again, this is more than likely my last post unless someone asks me a intelligent, thoughtful question that I haven't covered already numerous times. Thanks to all those who agreed with me, thanks to all those who didn't but did so with respect.

 

It's the only movie that I watch several times a year, every year.

I read it, but what you think Prime should do, and what is in character for Prime are two wholly different issues. Prime kills when he has no better option, and when the writers aren't restricted from having him do so.

That's why I said the line was ambiguous. However, within the context, "why throw away your life so reclessly" does mean "you're going to die" and Prime directs that statement back to Megatron.

It means Kup thinks Prime would do it, at least with some encouragement. You wanna tell Kup otherwise? Is Prime your war buddie?

A police example is not appropriate in a war scenario. Is Indiana Jones heroic? Hell yes. Does he kill Nazis when that's his best option? Without hesitation.

But did that happen to most of the fighters that came at our troops with guns and refused to surrender? No. We killed those ones.

It's certainly been interesting, yes. You should have been upset back in '86 and gotten over it by now though.

As some have pointed out, many of us are under the impression that Demolishor was already dying when Prime asked him for his last words. Execution? Mercy killing? Same thing in this case. Since there's not a concrete way to argue that one way or the other, why not just accept that as the case and feel better about Prime, since that's what it seems like you want to do?

But if you did, how would you learn that it's better to be a good law abiding citizen than to go to prison? A stasis prison would not reform any Decepticons, since they wouldn't have received any real punishment.

This "heroes don't kill unless there's no other option" stuff is misguided IMO, because it overlooks something. There is always another option. The hero could instead do nothing. He could allow others to die, or die himself instead. That's nonsense and defeats the whole point of being a hero. Rather, a hero should kill when there is no better option. There are cases, when you know the villain won't reform, when you know that mercy means more innocents will die, when taking the usual moral high road just isn't going to work out. Prime tried (however briefly) reasoning with Demolishor. He gave Megatron SO many chances to reform before the '86 movie (largely due to TV standards). It didn't work. Time to put the baddie to bed. The guy who does what's needed to prevent more loss of innocent life at the hands of the villain is the hero. The guy who lets the villain go, knowing there is no way more innocents will not die at the villain's hands... is an idiot, not a hero.

 

Hmm....let's see...

Prime gets off the shuttle saying "Megatron must be STOPPED." Not "contained." Not "imprisoned." Not "put on trial." "STOPPED." No matter the cost. To me that implies that he is about to take his punk ass out.

THEN...

The only thing he says to Megatron when he faces him is "One shall stand. One shall FALL." Not "you're under arrest." Not "come with me." Even Megatron doesn't misunderstand the meaning of this, as he replies "Why throw away your LIFE so recklessly?" Megatron knew very well that Prime was making a MORTAL THREAT against him, that he'd had fucking enough already, and that he was saying "I am about to kill your ass."

Prime doesn't back down from it either and turns the question around to Megatron, fully implying that Megatron should consider his own life and that it was about to end.

And when Prime finally knocks Megatron down, he very ceremoniously goes to pick up his gun. There is no question as to why he was picking up the gun. Megatron was ALREADY subdued. He was laying on the ground with the living shit kicked out of him, and all Prime would've had to do was slap some cuffs on him if he were going to take him prisoner. No, Prime was going to end him once and for all. Hell, Kup, who has been around longer than just about any other Autobot, instantly recognizes this, which is why he cheers Prime on, exhorting him to "finish him off" and "do it now."

On top of all that, Prime does not approach him in a manner that suggests subjugation. It is very obvious that Prime is about to dispatch Megatron EXECUTION style. It's in the stance.

And if all that isn't proof enough, when Hot Rod interferes, Prime's only words are "OUT OF THE WAY, HOT ROD" which is to say "I'm about to fuck up this guy's shit, and unless you want scorch marks, you better move."

So your point is irrefutably wrong.