MTMTE 33 Discussion

Discussion in 'Transformers Comics Discussion' started by payres, Sep 17, 2014.

  1. GWolfv2

    GWolfv2 Deathsaurus - A name you can trust for peace

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    Considering everything established in idw Rewind mass shifting (or anyone beyond those we can definitely confirm) is currently implausible. Not impossible, but implausible

    That and the one time we've SEEN his alt mode
    [​IMG]

    It's about the same size as his robot mode

    Combine that with the fact it's a big modification and the fact the disposable classes would not have had access to any kind of modification in the functionist days (we know Rewind's never changed alts) and it's far more plausible that there was a method of data transfer available without mass-shifting. But that doesn't mean they're the ONLY form of data storage. Tailgate could know full well about a "normal" memory stick, one that isn't as advanced as a living cybertronian.
     
  2. shamanking282

    shamanking282 Well-Known Member

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    Now that its been established that Megatron can mass shift in robot mode, I'm inclined to believe that one can choose to mass shift or not when they transform. Basically, If you can choose to shrink while still in bot mode, you can choose not to shrink when transforming to alt mode.
     
  3. SMOG

    SMOG Vocabchampion ArgueTitan

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    Somewhat obviously, I did not.

    We've been over this already.

    Exactly. A "normal" memory stick is small. A giant super-storage sentient one probably wouldn't look exactly like a small one though. It also probably wouldn't really be a "memory stick" anymore... the same way I don't call computer servers "memory sticks".

    zmog
     
  4. Cevel

    Cevel Well-Known Member

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    Why would a guy like Rewind, who was once part of a class so throw-away as to actually be called disposable (like, seriously. He was made to be tossed away. Why go to the enormous expense of giving him mass-shifting abilities if the only guys who've had it so far have had access to Ore-13 and/or are big names in the war?), and who also was never a combatant in a six million year war need to disguise himself?

    OR it could be that we've never seen him mass-shift because he can't. That's just as logical an argument as yours, and perhaps even moreso since he's always transformed into a hugeass USB stick. What more would it take to convince you, Rewind out-of-the-blue saying that he can't become tiny?

    Man, if anything, him being able to become an itty-bitty USB would make for even more plotholes, since if he could do that he (or at least, his first version) could've easily slipped out of that slow-cell and not have died.

    Are you using the G1 cartoon to bolster your argument? Who are you and what have you done with SMOG?! :lol 

    That's nice and all, but while the old Budiansky bios were what came first in the franchise, that doesn't mean everything from them automatically applies to the IDW continuity.

    I know how much you like those, and I do agree that anything calling itself a G1 continuity family should use those as basic foundation where possible, but you're expecting something written by one overworked guy in the 80s to be 100% true for a continuity that, from the very beginning, strove to be something a little different (especially if all those reports of Furman stressing the importance of putting a new twist on stories and characters at the outset is to be believed).

    If they didn't decide to be a little different, we'd still (for an example) have a Tailgate whose personality is non-exsistent except for the "hilarious" joke of him thinking nonsentient machines are alive. Budiansky did some good work, but even he had his stinkers.

    Yes, but that's Megatron, the former leader of the Decepticons. I'm sure he could afford/had access to that technology more than a guy like Rewind. Hell, Rewind's been confirmed to be extremely delicate as far as medical procedures on him go. How can we be sure he'd even survive the process?

    A deviation from a norm according to a guy who's only spent a few weeks alive, and who functioned as a janitor for that period of time. Pretty sure that means he probably hadn't seen all there was to see of the world yet.

    This isn't Earth we're talking about, SMOG. This is a planet with huge cassette tape people (like Ratbat originally was when Soundwave converted him), a weird dinosaur/cat/plane-faced thing (Skylynx), a Cybertronian with an animal mode that bears a striking resemblance to an Earth-style panther, etc. We've even got Rung, whose altmode stumped the scholars of his time so they just labelled him an ornament and sent him on his way. Altmodes and robot modes are all kinds of messed up on Cybertron.

    I don't even see why their altmodes have to adhere to a human's understanding of how big or small something should be in order to be referred to as one specific thing.
     
  5. Anguirus

    Anguirus Well-Known Member

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    Because each of us are focusing on different insane pedantic things?

    It sure is the Transformers fandom up in here. :lol 
     
  6. Starscream Gaga

    Starscream Gaga Protoformed This Way

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    To be fair, two pages later the dialogue explicitly states that Drift discovers the Metrotitan by slamming his great sword into the earth, while the artist decided to just draw him using one of his regular swords. That same artist in that same issue also drew Ore's head completely wrong for the entire story. I'd take anything that artist drew with a grain of salt.
     
  7. barry

    barry Well worn member

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    You're right of course, and I, I imagine much like you, am terribly excited about seeing Fortress Maximus city mode.
    Occam's razor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  8. SMOG

    SMOG Vocabchampion ArgueTitan

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    Yeah, apparently it was already even confirmed by Roberts that the art for that page was just a mistake.

    We do know from Tailgate and Swerve in issue #2 though, that Rewind does transform into something resembling a giant memory stick. The question remains unanswered whether Rewind can also transform into a size-appropriate memory stick as well, thanks to the recently established variable manipulation of mass-displacement that the spark retains, regardless of mechanical biology.

    Several factors come in here.

    - we don't actually know what the costs associated with mass-displacement truly are... at the moment we don't know if it's exclusive tech, or whether it's simply just the fuel demands that are just excessive. There is a difference there.

    - Rewind was a servant for a high-ranking polymath who deeply cared for him. Mass-shifting existed before Ore-13. If anyone in that decadent prewar culture might have been tricked out for the convenience of mass-shifting, it would be secretarial droids for the upper class. I mean, it's not like it would be for the servant's convenience, but even though he might have been a slave, he was still better off than some Empty off the streets.

    - that was over 4 millions years ago, and he has since become important to the Autobots as an essential receptacle of Cybertronian culture and history. He might have rated an upgrade. But really, my point rests on his alt-mode being based on mass-shifting from the get-go.

    Nope. Following that reasoning, half the crew of the Lost Light might logically be monoformers, for all the times we've even seen them transform. Since we haven't SEEN them transform, it's very likely that they simply CAN'T.... right? :p 

    Even if Rewind could mass-displace, why would he if it's exhausting? He's had no reason to. We're left with the same inconclusive evidence either way, so don't pretend that a negative makes a positive here.

    There's nothing to "convince" me of... because there's actually no concrete evidence either way... just the inherent stupidity of a guy transforming into a giant-sized pocket device. It would be like a character who transforms into a giant wristwatch. Not a clock. Not a "time pylon". A wristwatch.

    And there is the fact that all the other characters who traditionally transform into mass-shifted appliances seem to have retained that mass-shifting power... even Megatron who no longer even turns into a gun.

    Though I don't think we've seen Blaster or Perceptor transform yet, have we... so who knows what they even transform into in IDW? Still, with this latest issue, we know that if they ever did have radio or microscope alt-modes, they can pretty much shrink down like pixies now whenever they feel like it. Ain't science grand? :p 

    But yes, of course. If an in-story element confirms or denies Rewind's ability to mass-displace, yes that would "convince me"... just as I'm sure it would convince you the other way, no? Or would you take this argument to James Roberts on Twitter, and insist just as vehemently that it's utterly implausible? :wink: 

    I mean, it's not as if I'm actually taking an extreme point of view here. I'm just hypothesizing, in the absence of any concrete determination otherwise, that Rewind could potentially be mass-displacement-capable. I'd say that the more extreme standpoint seems to be the line-up of people trying to insist that this is NOT a credible possibility. What's up, dudes?

    You don't remember that scene very well, do you? The whole reason Rewind was in the cell in the first place was to remove the sword that was jamming the door (a door which, the instant it was unjammed, slammed shut so fast it severed Chromedome's arm). Wasn't much chance of getting out of there, bud.

    Again, in your fervor to disagree with me on this one, you seem to be reading things against the grain. That's kind of silly, no?

    Heh. Not really. As I pointed out several times earlier, the G1 cartoon was pretty stupid about stuff like that.

    But to re-iterate, what the old cartoon did do was cement a paradigm of mass-shifting in Transformers fiction. In case it's not clear, I've always HATED mass-shifting. I'd be happy to see it abolished from the fiction (and while I'm at it, I'll also put in a futile wish for "fembots" and overdetermined gender in Transformers to be abolished too). But it's not going to happen. It's just too ingrained into the fabric of Transformers culture. And now, James Roberts has just re-canonized mass-shifting idiosyncrasies and scale errors.

    Has nobody else noticed that?

    No, but as I just said in the clip you quotedthe bios, along with the cartoon, form a resonant discourse that exerts a pressure on our contemporary G1 fictions. Fluid mass reassignment was already present in both the original bios and in the cartoon, and oh look... now it's present in IDW.

    So I'm not making a case for fluid mass-shifting dynamics. I don't have to, because Roberts just made it so. All I'm doing by citing examples from the past is demonstrating the existence of a precedent. That doesn't mean I even have to like it.

    Arguably, the best work he did for the fiction was those bios... because the monthy comics sure weren't that great. :) 

    But before you start exalting the ingenuity behind a character like Tailgate, remember that if it weren't for an incidental artistic whim, he would have been Powerglide. In that sense, his personality is a more natural reflection of Powerglide's traditional rodomontade... the eager show-off kid who's willing to make up any story to get the respect of his peers, and instead ends up over his head.

    And Swerve was supposed to be Bluestreak. So we get a couple of character substitutions, and miss out on a deeply disturbed little autobot scout who talks to machines (and a reckless metallurgist with bad driving skills... admittedly a thin concept).

    How indeed! How did he survive a 4 million year war for that matter? Clearly even his very existence is suspect! :p 

    It's a tenuous comparison, since we rarely put infants to work in sewers. In fact, babies can't even TALK! You're right... Tailgate makes no sense! How did he pretend to be all those things. He wouldn't have even known what they were!!!

    If he knows what Rungian Psychoanalysis is, he probably knows what a memory stick normally looks like. :wink: 

    I'm sorry, but sarcasm is the best I can do with those points. You're saying that Tailgate probably doesn't know what a memory stick is, which is why he looked at Rewind, and identified him as a giant memory stick, which is apparently what he is? Rewind's scale isn't anomalous simply according to Tailgate, but because we've already seen people use memory sticks in IDW, and none of them have been the size of a small robot.

    I'm kind of doubting that Ratbat was a cassette tape of any kind when Soundwave converted him. He was a small rectangular box though, that was quite a bit smaller than Ratbat's bat mode... so perhaps that confirms mass-displacement for ol' Ratty too.

    Because linguistic corollary? Because we've seen memory sticks in use by Cybertronians before (and they're tiny)? Because Rewind was notably identified as looking like a giant memory stick... which pretty much explicitly states that he looks like an outsized version of a "normal" memory stick (which would be in this case, by definition, smaller)?

    As I've said, it's entirely possible that Rewind really does just transform into a giant memory stick. But that would be kind of dumb... like the hypothetical example of the guy who transforms into the 25ft wristwatch.

    Except I'm being pedantic about actual things contained within the text, as opposed to random arbitrary opinions... or random arbitrary oppositions to opinions, at least. But whatever... I'm just having fun here. :) 

    zmog
     
  9. Starscream Gaga

    Starscream Gaga Protoformed This Way

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    Has anyone mentioned the panel during Issue #13 that showed Cybertonians carrying around disposable class in their hands in memory stick mode?

    BeforeandAfter-Rewindisold.jpg
     
  10. fryguy81

    fryguy81 Rungover

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    Apropos of this discussion, I love that there is a multi page discussion on this thread about something that I always took as a throwaway joke by Roberts.

    I have honestly just accepted that Rewind turns into a giant memory stick because the notion is funny on the face of it. The most pointless mode of all, it's too big to even be effectively be used in a proper manner. Too big to carry. It's a ludicrous alt mode but it exists.

    I just took it as Roberts having a laugh and putting a joke in there for the fans who would chuckle because some of the old toys had odd modes or pointless seeming transformations.
     
  11. soundwaverulls

    soundwaverulls Taking a break

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    Ah, someone broke away from the current discussion. I was just about to do that. Now I don't feel so bad for interrupting.

    Anyway, is anybody expecting hilarity to ensue from Ravage likely joining the Lost Light crew? He is a Decepticon. I expect a lot of people are going to make a fuss and possibly force Ravage into the reintegration thing that Drift did. Imagine if Ultra Magnus forces Ravage into learning the Autobot code. :lol 
     
  12. 9.8m/s^2

    9.8m/s^2 What's in a name?

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    I'm hoping to see a bit of Rocket Raccoon in Ravage's presence in MTMTE.
     
  13. edgs2099

    edgs2099 Optimistically realistic. Moderator

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    All I know is that I'm excited for more Ravage. Thankfully not the "You wants me ta falla him, boss" Ravage. I'd love to see Ravage talking to Rung. Fuck that. I want to see "Spotlight:" revamped into a book where it's a different bot's sessions with Rung.
     
  14. CVprowl

    CVprowl Done

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    yes, i think i will enjoy having ravage around.

    the only sad thing is you know the autobot/decepticon conflict can't really be resolved… no matter how hard they work at it or even the best ideas thought of...
     
  15. Anguirus

    Anguirus Well-Known Member

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    Ok now THAT's something to chew on.

    As opposed to rating the superiority of certain types of pedantry.

    If Rewind has a "stupid" giant memory stick mode, suddenly we are into "legitimate unanswered question" mode, rather than "error" mode, which is an altogether more agreeable place to be.

    And yeah that validates SMOG's notion that while it may not have done THEM any good, the upper classes imbued the disposables with expensive technology. Technology that Rewind may have actually LOST over the years.

    If future covers are any indication we may be getting a whole issue on these guys, so, perhaps table things with bated breath for now?
     
  16. SMOG

    SMOG Vocabchampion ArgueTitan

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    Thank you for that smoking gun. :lol 

    Oh, that's completely possible. Roberts has definitely shown a willingness to reduce characters to the butt of a meta-joke. It's even pretty funny... but of course, now that mass-displacement has become a plot point, it shines a new light on that.

    Ravage has apparently been sitting in on Rung's sessions for a while now. Maybe it's the next logical step.

    In Treatment: The Rung Files. I could totally see that :D 

    Rating the superiority of different types of pedantry is entirely the point of pedantry, duh. :p 

    How is that not what I've been saying all along?

    The spark never forgets. Apparently.

    But he might not be getting regular doses of high-octane energon like he would have back when he was Dominus Ambus' houseboy. So it makes sense that he wouldn't use this ability often (or ever).

    Also, considering the data serfs themselves ARE expensive technology (effectively the property of their masters) that's not hard to imagine at all. I mean, if you're going to ask why you'd spend a lot of money on something that will be obsolete and disposable in a few years, maybe you should put that question to iPhone users. :wink: 

    zmog
     
  17. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP Be strong enough to be gentle

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    Smoking nothing. It doesn't show Rewind as a small memory stick. Maybe that's just a smaller robot?

    Or, that is the normal, non-TF memory sticks which Rewind supposedly resembles. :D 
     
  18. Anguirus

    Anguirus Well-Known Member

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    The in-universe "stupid"ity was clarified and highlighted to the point where I'm pretty sure it will come up again. As in, it's not just the result of writers and artists not thinking something through.

    Oof yeah. I guess. What a mess.

    Frankly Ravage not having enough manual dexterity to remove a panel and flip a switch (but just enough to be chirolingual) was a bit dodgy as well.

    HEY my iPhone4 works just fine! My buddy totally didn't make me jealous of his iPhone6 the other day...no sir...

    *insert frothing science pedantry*
     
  19. SMOG

    SMOG Vocabchampion ArgueTitan

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    I said "smoking gun", not "nail in the coffin". :) 

    Actually, based on the size of memory sticks we've already seen in the series, the one in that guy's hand is already "giant". That's more like a Blackberry.

    Old tech, I guess. :p 

    Or at least a case of them -pointedly- not thinking things through.

    As in "Yep, it's stupid. Whatcha gonna do? It's Transformers!" :) 

    I'm really hoping that's more a case of Nautica being a patronizing douchebag, rather than an actual representation of Ravage's abilities.

    Chirolinguistics is in danger of being too subtle, as well. I could buy it in the first appearance, between Drift and the LL sellers, because it was basically a tactile sign language. But Megatron and Ravage carrying on an entire conversation in the span of one grip? You might as well just say the Cons all have an installed short-range encrypted frequency they use.

    Consumer electronics are the apotheotic exemplars of planned obsolescence, are they not? :) 

    I even paused a moment before writing "high octane energon", savouring the prickles of barely-checked discontent it would incite. :ev: 

    zmog
     
  20. Anguirus

    Anguirus Well-Known Member

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    This is also a possibility that occurred to me, but TF artists generally avoid doing such things by convention. Due to, well, confusion.

    I mean, nobody thinks that Megatron fired at Zeta Prime with a gun that just HAPPENED to look like "Vos," right? (Even though in-fiction there almost certainly are guns that look like Vos, so that it's an effective disguise?)