More than Meets the Eye #21 Discussion/Spoilers and Preview Pics

Discussion in 'Transformers Comics Discussion' started by VRDUBZAK, Sep 21, 2013.

  1. Toonimator

    Toonimator Well-Known Member

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    The great sword wasn't the cure for Cybercrosis... it was a spark-boost, more like First Aid's jump-start of Max on Delphi (I haven't read any threads on that issue of MTMTE, but man did those giant alligator-clips bug me!), to give Tailgate's spark enough life to allow the ACTUAL cure for Cybercrosis to be administered & take effect.
     
  2. Dirge121

    Dirge121 I'll be your end of days

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    He was a cast member with a potentially interesting story to tell, so I'd say so. His death was really the driving force for Ratchet to finally have his revelation about stepping aside and letting First Aid take over. While it initially seemed like it was played for shock value, there was a meaning to it.

    I get what you're saying, and with any organic race it would make no sense. But the swords have been described before, this might be a new feature but it is at least explained. I don't really see the magic axe comparison, as this is just an ordinary feature of the blade. Its Cyclonus' spark that did the trick, anyone else probably would have just killed him. Also the weapon wasn't the cure, but it did help enough so that the cure could be implemented. Like hooking up a generator to keep the power on, or a blood transfusion. Tailgate still had cybercrosis after he was stabbed, but Cyclonus bought him valuable time to get treated.

    Right, and if he was a Decepticon he'd have shoved him without a second thought and walked away. But that isn't who he is anymore. He isn't a Decepticon, he isn't even a bad person. A Decepticon would have shoved him, hell Whirl probably would have shoved him. But he chose to be the bigger man. Let go of the past not only with Whirl but his past in general. Take a fresh start.

    I think its going to be a case of wait and see, I don't see him dropping his noble warrior roots anytime soon. He'll probably brood less, but I doubt you'll see him taking part in karaoke night at Swerve's bar. Who knows where his story will take him from here, thats what we have to look forward to.
     
  3. Kaijumaster

    Kaijumaster 335

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    Same Reason Magnus couldn't open the Matrix in 86' I think the matrix effectivness is tied into it's use by a matrix bearer.

    Regarding Cyclonus and the sword, I think it's important to remember two things.
    1) Costas idiotic statement that Cybertronians have no religions.
    &
    2) That Cyclonus was looking for a miracle. If it worked YAY! If it didn't he still spared Tailgate the 2 minutes of horrific Agony. Agony lets bear in mind Cyclonus is intimately familiar with after his 6 MILLION years in the Dead Universe. Cyclonus had ZERO way of knowing Whirls idea would work.
     
  4. Mechafire

    Mechafire Tarnished Moderator News Staff

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    I... guess?

    Wait, why is this important to remember? :confused: 

    Although I do find it amusing how MTMTE is basically a colossal "FUCK YOU" to Costa's assertion that Cybertronians have no religions.
     
  5. GogDog

    GogDog Logic's wayward son Veteran

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    The hyperbole is fun to read! But that's not what I meant at all.

    Roberts, in my humble opinion, has been a master at doing call backs, both from his own works, and previous writers. While other writers for this universe have done little to acknowledge the arcs of others, Roberts has done a fantastic job of linking the other stuff together, and making it feel like a complete universe.

    It's cool if you don't agree, but bringing in the great swords, and the circle of light, was a great way of trying the world together, even if it felt a bit rushed. The great swords have been established since nearly the beginning of being able to channel the power of the wielders spark. Roberts didn't, as someone else earlier put it, take a magical key out of Cyclonus' pocket and cure the disease. Tailgate already had a cure, but due to one issue, it was too late. Due to a) the previously established ability to channel a spark's energy into the sword, and b) the brilliant (again, IMHO) decision to make that a direct consequence of Cyclonus sparring Whirl's life was masterful. Robert's connects dots. He connects his own dots to others' dots. For me, it works.

    Do you have to agree? Nope. But man, for me, seeing us finally get some terrific fiction, written by someone who adores the franchise with all his heart and soul... it's sublime. Does reading people complain endlessly about something you find yourself to be sublime take away from that joy? To each their own, but for me, sure. I enjoy discussion. But, yes, there comes a time where it's best just to say, "You know what, I love this. And I know that despite me wanting to just bask in what I feel is the best story I have read in years for a franchise I adore with other people who feel the same and celebrate it...it's best to just not even attempt it. Because I know, the moment I click on the thread, there there is going to be a very vocal contingent that is, for pages, going to say it's not good enough. And while that's fine, it's also as predicable as a clock so why even entertain it."

    You obviously feel different about the book than I do. And that's fine. But yeah, there comes a point where sometimes you have have to enjoy something without the noise of the haters around. And that's not necessarily negative. I've been on the other side. The movies? Garbage IMO. Prime? It started off pretty great but eventually I had to say, "this isn't for me." And unlike, say Split Lip, I stopped going into the threads every week to tell everyone how bad the show sucked. :lol  If you've spent any time on these boards, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Maybe it's unfair to use the phrase "fandom" to describe any or all of that, but after a while, it all sounds the same.

    So yeah, it's cool. You can not enjoy it. I will continue to enjoy it, until either the book in its current form ends, or it stops being enjoyable to me.
     
  6. SMOG

    SMOG Vocabchampion ArgueTitan

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    Fair enough. Still amounts to the same thing, plot-wise... spontaneous spark transfusion. Pretty questionable under the circumstances, and certainly a last-minute dubious twist to save a character who just had a pretty meaningful and emotional send-off.

    This is my point though. His death had some meaning Definitely shock value was part of it, though I'm not sure it was the necessary catalyst for that conversation between First Aid and Ratchet. Certainly his death gave added push to First Aid's murder of Pharma. But the question is not whether his death had meaning, but whether his life had any meaning?

    The guy had ZERO personality. It's true that a Decepticon defector and fugitive from a failed combiner team has an interesting potential backstory to explore, but it seems fairly clear that Roberts wasn't interested in pursuing that. He was a funny concept and little else. Killing him effectively gave him more influence on the plot than keeping him alive. He was essentially a named redshirt.

    How is "medical spark transfusion" just when the plot calls for one, an "ordinary feature of the blade"? How is that NOT contrived like crazy? :) 

    And organic biology and magic axes aside (while I still believe the analogy works), I think using a chainsaw to boost your car amounts to the same thing. :wink: 

    Well, technically, he NEVER WAS a Decepticon. And Whirl IS a bad person, and Cyclonus is an honour-bound warrior whose honour was offended by Whirl. So killing him certainly IS still in his character. Pushing a wounded Whirl into a smelting pit... not so much. That's probably part of why he didn't kill Whirl in that moment. Giving in to the easy temptation... that would have been the "Whirl" way to do it (in fact, as you say it's totally what Whirl would have done in the same position... we've seen as much all through this series). It was his way of saying "I'm better than this guy."

    Well, we already know that he likes to sing...

    Yeah, I think this is something that makes a whole lot of sense. Either way, he fulfills his obligation to Tailgate. Which is why I think the scene might have played out a bit better if Cyclonus actually had no idea that would happen, and he had just been intending to administer the mercy killing. It still would have been a hail-mary last-minute contrived save... and it would have removed the (perhaps too trite and pat) irony of having Whirl save Tailgate, but if played right, it might have seemed a bit less contrived, if still coincidental and quasi-mystical.

    zmog
     
  7. Dirge121

    Dirge121 I'll be your end of days

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    I'll give you that. For what 'screentime' he got he never really did a great deal, which is why I think his death had that impact. First Aid clearly liked him which in turn as you say led to his giving Pharma what he had coming. This was a guy First Aid liked so much he abandoned pacifism to ensure he got his. You don't do that for any random guy. I guess its really more an implied relationship between the two characters, but thats still grounds for a future story that got cut short. For me its not a case of 'what did he do' but 'what could he have done'. Ratchet was preparing to hand down the title to First Aid, perhaps First Aid would in turn have done so to Ambulon? Maybe his former allies would come looking for him? Hell maybe the DJD has a score to settle with the guy. Pharma killing him took away his potential as a character, but the reaction from First Aid is enough for me to suggest that Ambulon had a lot more going on off-screen. They may even flash back to it as First Aid comes to terms with what he did. Or he might never get mentioned again.

    Because the blade already channels your spark through it as energy. Thats all it did, except here it was discharged straight into another spark. Like siphoning gas.
    Yes they are mostly used to hack and slash, but its design lets it act as a conduit. Like having a sword with electricity running through the blade then hooking it up to a circuit and using it to power a light.

    Also better than revenge. His sparing of Whirl led to the saving of Tailgate. I'd say that probably makes them even, I really doubt they'll duke it out again. For Cyclonus to just up and kill Whirl now would be pointless. He could challenge him to a final fight, but why would he? Psychopath or not, Tailgate would be a goner without Whirl. That has to be worth something.
     
  8. Anguirus

    Anguirus Well-Known Member

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    Roberts has consistently shot down these kinds of conspiracy theories. I highly highly doubt that this was any kind of "last second change."

    Not like death ever stopped Hasbro selling toys.
     
  9. RatTrap1985

    RatTrap1985 Under your rolls of fat

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    Kinda love you for this.

    Agreed. It has been established that characters can get spark jumps. The only difference is the conduit being used.
     
  10. Bass X0

    Bass X0 Captain Commando

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    The only thing worse than death in Transformers is to be ignored and overlooked.

    The Monsterbots never died anywhere but they're barely used. To me, that is worse than a character who is the focus of many issues only for them to die. Panel count is most important regardless of whether that character lives or dies in the final panel.
     
  11. General Magnus

    General Magnus Da Custodes of the Emprah

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    Yeah, Cyclonus has the sort of "romantic fascist", while Blitzwing, if Shadowplay serves me right, was a praetorian guard and was pretty much into the Con cause, while Cyclonus was just a follower of a unified cybertronian government.
     
  12. RatTrap1985

    RatTrap1985 Under your rolls of fat

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    They're off doing their own thing. Honestly, I'd like to see them again as well. Grotusque if no other.
     
  13. General Magnus

    General Magnus Da Custodes of the Emprah

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    Grotusque was killed by Cyclonus or the Sweeps (can´t remember) during Chaos.
     
  14. Mechafire

    Mechafire Tarnished Moderator News Staff

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    Cyclonus, even before MTMTE was actually interesting, whereas Blitzwing has always just been "Generic Bad Guy Soldier".

    Unless we're talking, like, Generations-styled Animated-influenced Blitzwing with multiple personalities...

    Fuck, now I'm disappointed that didn't happen. Would've been a perfect fit! :( 
     
  15. Starhawk

    Starhawk Well-Known Member

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    What I think you've said is entirely valid. Our way of enjoying these stories is intrinsically different, and that's where we're differing. I am valuing them for the events and characters that they relate, while you seem to be doing both with the addition of appreciating how they are related.

    I tried longer than I'd like to admit to adapt your pancake analogy to address my point of view, even altering it to be about steaks. What I wanted to convey was that I would prefer to judge a pancake based on my experience eating it, rather than comparing how it has been cooked to other pancakes. I've had some surprisingly good under and over cooked things. I'm willing to overlook the charred bits if it made me discover my new favorite syrup.
     
  16. RatTrap1985

    RatTrap1985 Under your rolls of fat

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    Yea, I know, but it was so vague whether he actually got killed. There wasn't any real spark leaving body like there was with pipes or anything.
     
  17. General Magnus

    General Magnus Da Custodes of the Emprah

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    I think any cybertronian with that sort of disorder would be cool. Remember we have outliers and having a character with different personalities and abilities would be within that outlier range.
     
  18. Coffee

    Coffee (╭☞ꗞᨓꗞ)╭☞

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    I like to think he and Cloudburst fell through a panel in the floor, escaped in a ship, and are drifting through space as we speak. I also like to think that Skullcruncher and Roadgrabber still live given Crankcase's current status and being a part of the same group.
     
  19. fryguy81

    fryguy81 Rungover

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    I Think with Tailgate, the whole countdown thing to him dying was all about adding a sense of urgency on top of everything else. If this story had only been about finding Magnus, running into Tyrest, and stopping his scheme; it would have still been a great fighter, however adding in the ticking clock to Tailgates demise was about adding that need to get it done.

    Because now it wasn't just about stopping Tyrest, it was about stopping Tyrest in time. It ratcheted up the tension, made it that much more intense, and gave that "needs to get done in time" that it wouldn't have had otherwise. It would still be good but this made it heartstopping.

    As for "sword of magic" it's all about the characterization here. This isn't about Tailgate dying, it's about CYclonus showing us how much he cares for this little white guy.
    Yes it was heart breaking and all that everyone has said it was in regards to being maddening. But it was just about telling that moment. But in the end, I just think that James changed his mind. Like he did with Swerve.
     
  20. emptythreat

    emptythreat Well-Known Member

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    Ha! Fair point!

    Again, great point and made me laugh!

    I do feel there is an amount of critical blindness when it comes to MTMTE. It's like trying to argue with the screaming crowd at a Bieber gig. Terrible analogy because I hate the Bieb and I actually think James is a good writer, but I don't think MTMTE is without flaws and at times those flaws are huge. Other times it shines with effortless brilliance. I can see both and I don't really see the benefit in being unrealistic about any writer or artist. I've seen identical flaws flagged up ad nauseum about other writers but somehow Roberts gets a free pass every time. I'm sure he won't be crushed by constructive feedback!

    Broadly I agree with you here but its also hard to argue with someone's taste too. If I don't even like pancakes why argue with me? I think the series has had some great character moments but I also think the dialogue has got very samey sounding a lot of the time with the same pun-filled voice from every character. I have loved aspects of the story but have also felt it has meandered, gone in strained unfocused directions at times. I've just stated my thoughts and left it at that (unless it needed explained or clarified).