More females in Beast Wars

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by beastal, Jul 17, 2018.

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  1. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Blue=Sarcasm; Purple=Snarkcasm

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    okay that's fair. but there's been a healthy amount of transformers interesting and relatable.

    sky-byte, animated optimus prime, any ratchet, hot rod, kup, tigatron, cheetor, rid2 bumblebee, to name a few.
     
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  2. Snowcat

    Snowcat Animation Detective

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    I think the demographics of the modern day disagree with you there. Have fun in the 80s. And having said that, even in the 80s, when this was supposedly true, they still did a whole episode about a group of badass female Autobots, had an awesome female human in the form of Carly and in 1986, introduced a regular female Autobot in Arcee. So don't claim anything is being forced into the brand.

    Women, whether behind the scenes, in the fiction or in the fandom, have always played a significant part, which is now stronger then ever.

    Sorry, I did mean specifically the kind that look like actual bare human boobs. I don't have a problem with the uniboob kind. Plenty of male transformers have even bigger uniboobs!

    Yes, I agree. For it's time, the Beast era definitely did a very good job when it came to portraying female characters. Which cannot really be said for the following ten years of transformer cartoons, with Cybertron being pretty much the only show to have any regular female transformers. And one of them had to be genderswapped from the Japanese version.

    I'm sure there are some people who would do just these things, sadly.

    Couldn't agree more. From time to time, I do see people criticise certain humanisations in Transformers, claiming that what makes the story unique is that they are alien. Of course, people always pick and choose which humanisations actually bother them. And it's never the 'he' pronoun.

    But really it's all ridiculous for one plain reason. Nobody has ever actually written a alien character in a way that is not relatable to humans. It's just not possible. Because no one has ever met a real alien!
     
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  3. Windsweeper II

    Windsweeper II The Pristine

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    I'm not saying they are mutually exclusive.
    But I regularly see people claim that because Transformers have always been portrayed using humanization that's it's not possible to do things different or to move away from that.
    Obviously you CAN do what has never been done before.
    Really though, it's not just about Transformers.
    Not even human characters need to be relatable for them to be engaging.
    There have been a lot of pretty unrelatable human characters throughout history that have captivated the public.
     
  4. Gaastra

    Gaastra Well-Known Member

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    Yeah "boys won't play with girl figures" is the dumb thinking in the 80s that robbed us of main female heroes from many toylines. JB from bravestarr was the second main hero and was in almost every episode but she's a girl so no toy. Sorry wasp no secret wars toy for you. Only one female in three waves of dc superpowers! Main girl from mask showing up at the end of the line and stuck with a new car that not the one she used on the show. It would take the 90s toys like X-Men and batman to break that dumb "no girls allowed in boys lines" motto. When I was a kid every kid at my school had teela and lady jay and scarlett. Why? They were main heroes on the shows. Fact that they were females was a afterthought. Star wars lots of kids got liea. Why? She was one of the main heroes from the film. I did know some kids who looked for a arcee toy for their collection but she was never made. How many kids got april for their turtles line?


    Funny thing is half the cast of gobots are female. The female robots look the same as the male ones half the time so you may have got that vamp or pathfinder toy and didn't know it was a girl!

    Also the "transformers is genderless" thing is bull. Prime is male hands down. male look, male voice, he is called "he" in the show and comics. He is a male. Plus he had a girlfriend before he became prime. Then there's beta a early female so they did have females that far back in the timeline.

    Male or female. Any transformer can be great with good writing.
     
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  5. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime System Pride

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    I don't get why you would use they/them unless you're actually referring to multiple characters at once which is what those pronouns are actually meant for.

    I personally prefer to use hu/hum/Hus though that wouldn't exactly work for Transformers since those pronouns literally mean human.

    Male Transformers are rediculous but I wouldn't say it's equal. Mostly because you wouldn't really know a character was male if they weren't specifically referred to that way. It's not like they have any distinctly male features like the fembots typically have obviously female features. The "male" robot designs could have been presented as genderless if fembots never existed. They only really look masculine compared to characters like Elita One, Chromia, Firestar, Arcee, act. Without them they'd just be genderless robots.

    Take the Lost in Space Robot as an example. It's not a he, it's a robot, a machine, I don't really have a problem with calling that by the same pronouns I would use to describe a toaster. However if you introduced a second robot with feminine features like boobs then suddenly the original robot becomes a dude. There is no female counterpart so that's not an issue.

    Oh and about the whole Transformers relationships thing...

    1. With the exception of Thunderblast who's entire character in Cybertron seemed to be just to have a massive crush on Megatron I can't think of a single female character outside of the G1 continuity family who's actually had any sort of romantic attachment to any male character... I guess there was sort of a love triangle between Optimus, Sentinel, and Elita-One in animated which lasted for all of one flash back before she became Blackarachnia... and I suppose the Dinobots also had a crush on her for a little bit but there was no true couple at any point in the series. And it seemed like Arcee and Optimus were going to develop some kind of romantic relationship at one point during Prime but that never went anywhere after that episode and all they really did was hold hands for a few seconds big freaking deal. Seems entirely platonic considering nothing before or after that was even a tiny bit romantic.

    2. Even the characters who do have romantic relationships, except for Thunderblast who again her entire character seemed to be to crush on Megatron. Pretty much every other female their romantic attachments had little to do with their character. The G1 Fembots except for Elita-One each had all of one scene with their male counterparts. Does anyone even remember without looking it up what the romantic parings were? The only one I really know off hand is Optimus Prime and Elita-One and it kinda helps that we also knew them as Orion Pax and Ariel.

    Arcee also didn't even really seem to have one real romantic partner. I've heard some people ship her with Springer, I personally see her being with Hot Rod, others have literally called her a whore cause she seems to flirt with all the male characters. But I'm not sure she was ever really flirting with anyone. Then again I'm also apperently totally clueless when girls are flirting with me. My first girlfriend had to actually move her hands up my leg inches away from my privates before I even noticed.

    Anyway... going to Beast Wars...

    There was a romantic relationship with Airrazor and Tigatron but they were also developed as individuals who like nature and never really lived on the Axalon. They worked as a couple because their personalities were so similar. Blackarachnia also had several episodes of character development before Silverbolt even existed. She developed more after him, mainly in switching sides to become a Maximal because of him but everything else about her character had nothing to do with him. Strika and Obsidian besides basically being told they're a couple we really didn't get to see much of them as a romantic couple because they're both so obsessed with their work they barely pay attention to each other. And then we have Rattrap and Botanica who's relationship kinda sprang up out of no where considering they were constantly arguing. Botanica's character was more about being a scientist, apparently she was the leader of her own exploration team and for whatever reason the sole survivor, the fact that she's the only plant, and her relationship with Rattrap was really an after thought not the core of her character.

    Some feminists seem to think any attachment to male characters is a bad thing. I don't see it that way. As long as she isn't defined entirely as romantic love interest for a far more interesting male character I don't see any problem with having a romantic relationship.

    And in our defense, the reason guys don't like chick flicks is because those movies do the same thing to the male characters. Male characters are defined as the love interest for a far more interesting female character. They don't really have a personality beyond attractive love interest.

    For some reason I don't understand when the lead is a man and the female is just there to be a romantic love interest it's trashed as sexist garbage but if it's a female lead and the man is just there to be a romantic love interest it's praised as being something new and progressive. Those types of stories aren't new they've been around just as long as their male counterparts. They also aren't progressive, they're just as sexist as the reverse. Stories where both the male and female are actually interesting characters like Beast Wars and Beast Machines, those are progressive.
     
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  6. AutobotAvalanche

    AutobotAvalanche Number One in Boogieland Moderator

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  7. Ceasar121

    Ceasar121 Wants a Toxitron repaint!

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    I'm quite familiar with the G1 females. Like Elita 1. She's a bit character, in G1. She was drawn like a female, and was played like Optimus Prime's girlfriend. They were basically never heard from again. Arcee faired better even though she was still mostly a damsel in distress, drawn like a female and pink. That's what I don't want. A character that screams 'femmebot soon as you see it.

    I never said anything was being forced in, I'm fine with the way it is now. The thread is about adding more female characters for the sake of adding more females. If you're going to write an awesome character, and have it voiced by a female fine. I just don't want them to start specifying "female robot" then feminizing designs for "inclusion". If we do that, what's next? 'Black' sounding bots?

    It just seems like the imagination allows any fan inclusion, regardless of how you identify.
     
  8. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime System Pride

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    How the Slag do you sound black? There are already Transformers voiced by black actors if that's what you mean.
     
  9. Ceasar121

    Ceasar121 Wants a Toxitron repaint!

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    This is exactly my point. Adding characters for the sake of them appealing to a demographic. 'Black' fans need inclusion! Female fans need inclusion! Enter Oprah-imus Prime!"

    I grew up LOVING comics and anime, yet black characters were barely there (and mostly continue to be barely there). I didn't get all miffed that there wasn't 'black Superman.' But there was female Superman. No Native American Captain America. No the black characters were "Black Panther", "Black Lightining", etc etc... I hated the hamfisted black stereotypes, despite some them being good, the characters existed to be black first and superhero second. So I just included myself by imagining myself as the characters I liked. Mostly likely, new 'female' characters brings the same thing, nothing interesting, just a character designed to be female... so why wouldn't a girl imagine herself as Prime or Megatron, or any other number of cool characters? Why do visual and audio cues need to be added SPECIFICALLY for that purpose?

    Transformers never raised that issue. I remember getting into fights with kids because "Superman isn't black you have to be "insert 80s black character." I could be Optimus Prime, Megatron etc, and no one would say anything about 'you can't'. I like the fact that the various alt modes and colors made that a non issue.

    I didn't even really think of any Autobots or Cons as 'he', just they sounded like dudes.

    I think adding females 'to add females' is dumb, because inevitably, they won't be characters, they'll be stereotypical female characters. I mean save Strika, every Transformer female has screamed femme bot soon as you see her, and has basically become a character troupe of 'femme' characters. Wingblade in the comics has been a pretty nice treat, I could get behind her becoming a main character, if she's presented as she is in the comics... an interesting, if a little Mary Sueish character.

    If the current state of the franchise, is what got the fans, why add some "inclusion inducing" characters? wouldn't the fiction be what got the female fans in the first place?

    If they want to say Optimus Prime is a female, IDGAF as long as she's still voiced by Peter Cullen. In fact there's a question, would female fans be satisfied with a character being called a female and still voiced by a male VA? A TRANS-former? :D  (I couldn't help myself).

    Leave the gender out. Write the characters. If a female is the best VA for said character, lets do it. If not, I think the ratio is fine. I'd even be cool with Megatron as a female, especially for the invariable in jokes with Starscream. If they can find a female with the gravitas to pull off a great Prime (written as Prime, not 'female' Prime), I'm for it.

    I think Susan Blu would have fought for more female voices if there was truly some need.
     
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  10. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime System Pride

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    I was not even paying attention to your avatar when I wrote that comment.

    Also regarding Superheroes, I'm pretty sure the "black" in the name is referring to their costume not their skin. Black Panther for example is the actual name of the animal the hero is based on. It's like Green Lantern or Blue Beetle. Plus there are black heroes who don't have black in their name like Static Shock, Power Man, Steel, Storm.

    Would also like to point out characters like Black Tom, Black Atom, Black Canary, Black Cat, who are all white, they just wear black costumes.

    Oddly I had the opposite issue where someone insisted Jazz was the only black character and my thought was WTF are you talking about Jazz is white and blue. Then he was like not his color scheme, his race. And then my reaction was he's a robot, not a human. It wasn't till years later that I even knew who Scatman was. They've always just been robots to me, I don't give a crap who voiced them. I don't understand applying human race to non-human fictional characters.

    Gender makes more sense cause at least most life on Earth have genders, except for the very few asexual secies that don't. And there is a difference in voice with men typically sounding deeper than women. So even if they weren't suppose to have genders it's hard to hear a human voice and not apply a gender to it... except Soundwave since his voice is so distorted that you can't even tell it's Frank Welker. He just sounds like a robot. And Animated Perceptor literally is a robot... that's not even an actor's voice, it's a text to speech program. Of course now days even simulated voices have masculine and feminine tones which is weird to me. They're machines why the heck do they need genders.

    Also I hate the idea of changing a character's gender or race just for the sake of having more female or more black characters... unless that character in fiction has already been established to have the ability to change their appearence like the Doctor and the Master, they can be whatever. But if the character isn't known to change their face, then leave them alone. You want more female and black character then make new characters instead of reimagining existing ones.

    I'm fine with John Stewart and Miles Moralis because they're actually different characters. It's not black Hal Jordan, and black Peter Parker they just happen to take on their mantles but aren't black versions of them. Sam was also Captain America at one point which is cool, a black Captain America who can also fly that's freaking awsome. As long as they never make a black Steve Rogers.

    Black Nick Fury bugs me cause he was originally a white guy... though I think there was a comic that tried to recon this so that Nick Fury was a code name for whoever the director of SHIELD ended up being... which doesn't explain the amazing coincidence of why they both have an eye patch and he didn't even pass the code name to Coleson if it is even a code name and not his real identity.

    Oddly though I'm Ok with black Wally West mostly because with both Wally and Barrey being white there's no way to tell which one is in the Flash costume. At least now when Wally takes over as the Flash it'll be easy to tell the difference.

    They should do something with the Robins too. When most of them are white guys with spiky black hair there's no freaking way to tell them apart. The girls are the only ones who really look different. Carrie has glasses and Stephanie actually has a mask.
     
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  11. Snowcat

    Snowcat Animation Detective

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    Ah, you mean like adding more male characters to a "toyline aimed at juvenile boys"?
     
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  12. pokemonsdoom

    pokemonsdoom Hi I'm Sarah

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    agreed fully. Just the biology of the alt might not match the gender of the bot, *cough*Waspinator*cough*
     
  13. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime System Pride

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    Why'd you single out Waspinator? All the Beast Wars cast have female beast modes. Though Primal has a distinctly male chest. Of course there's a reason for this being that they can't animate male genitals in a children's cartoon. Though that doesn't explain things like why Tarantulus can spin webs despite only females spiders actually having that ability.
     
  14. pokemonsdoom

    pokemonsdoom Hi I'm Sarah

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    Oh I know of the limitations of animation and censorship it's just Waspinator had a stinger, only female wasps have stingers dude,
     
  15. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime System Pride

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    Oh I get that, I'm just asking why he was singled out as if he were the only one with a female beast mode. Only female spiders have spinerettes, males can't produce webs, Tarantulus has a female beast mode.

    Freaking everyone is female, it ain't just Waspinator.
     
  16. pokemonsdoom

    pokemonsdoom Hi I'm Sarah

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    I blame Spider-man for the web spinning making it into pop culture
     
  17. Ceasar121

    Ceasar121 Wants a Toxitron repaint!

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    That's a nice way to twist my words, but wasn't even the point.
     
  18. lordsmurf

    lordsmurf Well-Known Member

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    Pfft... no.
    It's been a while since I saw demographics data on Transformers, but it was (and really still is) something like 90% male. Really no different than Barbie, or any doll, being 90% female.

    Yep. 70s blaxploitation continued into the 80s for comics.
     
  19. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime System Pride

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    I'm pretty sure there's a higher female demographic of Transformers fans than there is a male demographic for Barbie. Not saying the male Barbie fans are zero, my dad actually has a set though that's only because that particular set are wearing Star Trek uniforms. But Barbie isn't really that appealing to women either.

    There are generally a lot of females who play with boy toys in general cause they actually do stuff. Girl toys are largely all the same thing, there's not really any variety. It's all dress up dolls and baby dolls. Just do to the fact that boys have a wide variety of different types of toys girls are naturally going to be more interested in boy toys than the other way around. It's just simple math.

    That, and no one cares if girls want to play with boy toys but boys who want girl toys become targets for bullies so even if they were interested they likely wouldn't admit to it. It's probably going to be that way until toy companies and stores stop marketing to specific demographics.

    It's a little easier as an adult because at some point as you get older you eventually stop caring what other people think. Which is probably why you see a lot more adult Bronies than kids. Adults can handle bullies.
     
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  20. siccoyote

    siccoyote Worst side of the fandom

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    I don't think they toy company marketting has anything to do with parents not wanting their boys to play with dolls.

    Though Jem's computer was really cool looking.
     
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