Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by Mr. Chaos, Jul 5, 2019.
Generally speaking: Origin Stories
Unpopular opinion: WTF happens after TLK?
If the Decepticons were utterly defeated? Yeah, he'd name names like Igor in Harry Potter. Because while he is loyal... Ravage is a SURVIVOR.
I'd like to known too.
If we still had the club someone might have written a sequel.
Note quite the copy of the original script, but I believe this was in the original script.
MEGATRON:That must have been shortly before our final falling-out with the Autobots. *NEW* MEGATRON: They refused to join us in our conquest of the universe so we declared war on them and all their weakling breed.
This is what you are taking about?
I know about this but you were getting it seriously confused
Here’s the dialog again
MEGATRON:That must have been shortly before our final falling-out with the Autobots.
MEGATRON: They refused to join us in our conquest of the universe so we declared war on them and all their weakling breed.
He’s not talking about a group of Jet/Skyfire type robots
These words in bold all relate to one group.....The Autobots
“They refused to join us”= The autobots refused to join us
“So we declared war on them”=So we declared war on the Autobots
“And all their weakling bread”= And all the Autobots weakling bread
After all, Megatron himself said earlier in the he didn’t Recognize the clarification of Jet/Skyfire so there’s no way he can be talking about a group of Jet/Fires
Apologies, if I ramble on a bit.
To me, Megatron says Skyfire is a robot of unknown classification. I interpret this to mean that he is not Autobot nor Decepticon but the production team has not come up with any good name for Skyfire's group, so they just say he is of unknown classification. Nearly 60 episodes later the concept of Military Hardware comes up which could shed more light on Skyfire's original faction.
I think exploring the concept of neutrals is quite interesting from a G1 cartoon perspective, especially how the Decepticons evolved from Military Hardware.
I interpret that Megatron and the Decepticons declared war on Skyfire's group in addition to the Autobots, but this could be at different times. For example, the Autobots might be too big to fight in the early days of Megatron's leadership.
I know you said that you prefer the marvel comics origin of the Decepticons (I am only really familiar with the cartoon version). In any case, I think exploring Megatron essentially reviving the Decepticons and Starscream's ascension up the Decepticons ranks, to off great interest to me, if this were done as G1 cartoon canon.
In the inter-wars years, I think life on Cybertron would be of more interest if there are more than just two factions (the Autobots and Decepticons).
I do it all the time lol
That makes no sense .......first of all if that were the case and the only production team just didn’t have a name for a group then Megatrons dialog isint logical
Saying “unknown classification” means he never saw anything like him not that he didn’t know the groups name
At the time of the episodes production , none of the “back history” we learned of in season 3 was even thought of.....At the time they were still working with the basic back story that was used in the marvel comics
They weren’t 2 different product lines
They weren’t consumer goods and military hardware
They were just a planted of robots, the robots went to war and chose sides based on their basic personalities
Megatron saying he was of unknown classification was him saying he had never seen a robot like him at all ever
How do you figure?
The 2 product line concept only limits you to only 2 options, so it completely eliminates any possibility that Skyfire belonged to a 3rd group/faction
I like your fan fiction ideas but they all don’t fit within the existing canon as it was without re-writing and disregarding official martial
The concept of “neutrals”, as in reboots that chose not to partake in the war is one thing, but suggesting a 3rd product line won’t work based on what 5faces is darkness revealed
When “fire in the sky” was written, the concept they were going with was that transformers took sides by free will
Sorry but like I said before I thing you are greatly misunderstanding the dialog
Megatron said Skyfire was of unknown classification.....how can you declare war on a group you don’t know well enough to give a classification to?
No, I’m sorry, but that “early draft” as you called it does not suggest the idea of a 3rd group that Skyfire was part of nor does it suggest Megatron declared war on that so called 3rd group
Megatron was talking about the Autobots in that dialog
And this has nothing to do with what origin I prefer, it’s just about the dialog and what the production team was working with at the time
Again,how can you declare war on the unknown group ?
I'm pretty sure by "unknown classification" he just meant neutral, since IIRC Starscream left him buried there long before the war started. If not he's still technically not on either side, thus "unknown".
Which doesn’t make sense...sorry it doesn’t...., not with the wording in the dialog
The episode was written nearly 3 years before the concept that thransfornrrs were built as consumer or military robots
Transformers chose what team they wanted to be part of they weren’t decanted of 2 different production lines when that episode was written
Classification was not a reference to what team they were on but the type/class of robot that he was
So, unknown meant that Megatron had never seen a robot of his class
And according to the dialog Starscream left him buried there only shortly before the war started.
Just the whole "Robots in disguise" thing. The idea that they are here hiding in plain sight trying NOT to be discovered was one I always liked. IMO the "Infiltration" and "Escalation" storylines from IDW were the really ones that only got into that. I would have loved it if they would base a movie (reboot) off the Infiltration plot, it was a perfect starting point IMO.
Everything on the G1 toys Tech Specs.
It's like these cool characters were created, and then never used. Apparently the Tech Specs is the closest thing to Bob Budianski's original designs for each character, but as soon as the comics and then the cartoon happened, every character was different, but I still wanna see Prowl use his wire-guided incendiary missiles and high-corrosive acid pellets.
From the original G1 cartoon perspective, we do not know how the Military Hardware came to be Decepticons.
On this thread of wanting to more, I think it would be really good leading up to the 2nd war (after the Cybertroniums vs the Quintessons) to see the transition from Consumer Goods to Autobots and the transition from Military Hardware to Decepticons.
In essence, I like the idea of the Decepticons just being one faction (amongst others) of Military Hardware, leading up to the 2nd war (but I respect your opinion of Skyfire essentially being one of a kind). On Skyfire neutrality, there is a thread,
SkyFire Unknown Classification
In any case, I am sticking with my view that (as in the link)
From FFOD, in the third civil war, the Autobots defeat the Decepticons / Military Hardware through stealth (transforming). After the end of the third Cybertronian war, there are some Military Hardware robots who are not Decepticons (or decide to join the Autobots), Sky Fire is created in this period for scientific purposes by a group of non-aligned transformers (Starscream probably is as well). Sky Fire then crashes on earth, before the start of the 4th Cybertronian war and then is found in the 1980s on earth.
On linking the end of the original US cartoon series and Beast Wars (while it is in my head), I like to think there is a character like Straxus in the comics (who I will just refer to as Straxus) who leads a group of Military Hardware on another planet (not Earth or Cybertron or Chaar), this would require a bit of a retcon. After Rebirth, characters like Soundwave, Ravage, Rumble, Dirge, Astrotrain, Thrust, and the Constructions leave the Decepticons (they are sick of Galvatron) and find another planet to live on. However, Staxus finds about these wantaway Decepticons and fights (with his group of Military Hardware) and then subjugates them. In desperation, a message gets sent to the Autobots that the wantaway Decepticons want asylum on Cybertron and the Autobots reluctantly agree, on the view that they are put on trial for crimes against peace 'a bit like the Nuremberg trials' and punished. In the trials, we could explore the background to characters like how Soundwave became really loyal to Megatron and events leading up to the Third Cybertronium War.
For a happy ending Perceptor and Chip Chase find a way to reverse the Robosmasher programming of the Constructicons and Chip Chase's dream (as per The Core episode) of the Devastator fighting permanently on the Autobot side is realized.
I’m not sure how you can actually say that with a straight face LOL
(Just a joke obviously I can’t see your face)
But it was pretty much spelled out in the cartoon, albeit with simple “a and b” kind of thinking
The consumer goods were originally programmed to serve those they were sold to,
so in their basic programming the consumer robots are naturally going to be peaceful
The military hardware were originally designed to fight and destroy, likely sold to those kind of people either already at war or looking to start wars in the pursuit of conquest
Do likewise, the military robots basic programming is going to be geared towards fighting, controlling and the desire for war
The cartoons basic logic is that after they freed them selfs from their creators, they eventually reverted to their basic instincts/programming
And I’m not suggesting that Skyfire was “one of a kind”, I just don’t think he was part of a group that all looked like him, and the fact that Megatron did not recognize his “Classification” is pretty much proof positive that no such group existed
I feel that you think that because of groups like the seekers, a bunch of guys that look alike, but I feel that the only reason why there were characters that looked like each other was because they underwent modifications to join the war effort
Different political factions within the military hardware robots I can believe, different leaders trying to start their own little armies I can believe as well, until they all fell under one flag
Is non existent because he was last before the war....so there was nothing to be neutral about
For that mater even Starscream was neutral at the time
SkyFire Unknown Classification......was Megatrons opinion because he had not seen a robot of Skyfires type before
If you feel like sticking with your view you formed from the video you posted that’s your right, but there is nothing in the vid that supports that Theory
It’s just not in the dialog, Believe me I understand the desire for wanting more depth more imagination and more answers to unknown questions .......What you’re looking for them where they don’t exist at the time
That’s not to say I don’t like your idea, but it’s not supportable by the dialog in that clip, better to put it forward as a original idea of your own
All very nice original ideas
Not sure I like this one
I realize I am taking a fair bit of liberties, but I think as the cartoon does not provide too much back story, so there is a lot of room for imagination.
The Fire in the Sky episode could have gone so much deeper into the days of Cybertron just before the third civil war. Starsceam, could have said something like 'Skyfire and I were scientists working for XYZ, neither of us was aligned to the Decepticons at the time, or the Autobots for that matter'. Megatron could have added something more to the conversation, as could of one of the other Decepticons such as Thundercracker.
My own headcanon is that Skyfire was built to be a scientist for a former Military Hardware robot, that Military Hardware built up a successful science and exploration business and a new war would be bad for profits. Skyfire, was too much of a scientist to get into issues regarding Cybertron's past, this may explain why he joined the Decepticons without too much fuss (I know it is only a 22 minute episode or something like that). Also, I think that Starscream looked a smaller version of Skyfire and not like the seeker jets, in my head, he gets badly damaged in war and rebuilt with as a Tetrajet like Thundercracker.
Then Starscream returns to Cybertron and the war pretty much starts and things get interesting. With the seeker jets I feel they were built to protect Cybertron, but maybe they got bored or something and joined Megatron (with Thundercracker perhaps being the most reluctant). Who knows, but I wish this was explored with the G1 cartoon strongly in mind.
On potential other factions of Military Hardware, in Season 2 you only had about 25 Decepticons who were often at odds with one another, so back in the day there could have been thousands of robots who were Military Hardware and I struggle to see them all fighting under the Decepticon banner, originally. With the death toll of war, I can see many of them amalgamating under the strongest group of Military Hardware, that being the Decepticons. But in the G1 cartoon universe, I still like to think there is an evil Military Hardware group out there who hates the Deceptions and the Autobots.
Would you have had them executed?
I would have loved if Omega had another battle with the Constructicons in Rebirth. Maybe Omega could have finished the Constructicons off and the Stunticons could have replaced the Constructicons as wantaway Decepticons.
No they could not have done that at the time
Like I said several times, your view on that issue “skewed” by Hindsight, by the season 3 episode
Back when the episode was written (fire in the sky) it was useing the basic back story laid out in the comics
There was no war before Skyfire was lost on earth, so there was no war factions to be aligned to
You really can’t expect the writers of season 1 to know what season 3 writers were going to add to the series
most episodes just didn’t have the time for such things
I prefer to think Starscream was the original Seeker and that the others , Skywarp Thundercracker and every other color, were modified in his image to serve as a noble air attack force
I guess see how that would be interesting
we both know that’s not the auto bots away
But I can certainly see them being killed in battle not willing to give up
that might’ve been cool
After the Quintessons leave Cybertron, the Cybertronians live peacefully. Then the Military Hardware / Decepticons go to war against the peaceloving Autobots. The Autobots are essentially on the brink of defeat but learn to transform, thus are able to win the war.
Peace resumes, everyone can speculate what happened to the Military Hardware / Decepticons, I kind of assume it like the later Maximal / Predacon alliance. But later Megatron is created (I assume Skyfire is created in between (not during) wars) and war restarts with Orion Pax / Optimus Prime.
In a way, this is probably part of the reason why I participate in these forums. I loved Seasons 1 and 2 but feel that Season 3 does not really line up well with the previous seasons, my fan-fiction tries to link up pre-movie events with the movie and post-movie events.
That is cool, really just a matter of opinion. I just think that Starscream is more of the outsider (especially next to Skywarp and Thundercracker) but leads the squadron, based on force of personality.
True enough, I am thinking if there were new G1 cartoon episodes (to cover largely unexplained evernts), it would be darker the original cartoon as we are now adults. In that I see the Autobots having being able to impose the Death Penalty but extremely reluctant to use it. In the fan-fiction, with the wantaway Decepticons, I see SoundWave potentially facing the ultimate sanction, with the others getting lessor penalties. Maybe a plea bargain helps save Soundwave.
No there wasn’t
Read more carefully , And forgive me if that sounded a bit off
as I said before....your view on that issue “skewed” by Hindsight, by the season 3 episode
Back when the episode (fire in the sky) was written it was useing the basic back story laid out in the comics
There was no Quintasons
No war before Skyfire was lost on earth, so there was no war factions to be aligned to
You really can’t expect the writers of season 1 to know what season 3 writers were going to add to the series
The information given in season 3’s “five faces of darkness” was basically a retcon
It was new info being added to the series, it was not part of the original plan for the cartoon, not part of the original production Bible
There is no way for the writers of season 1’s “fire in the sky” to have had the forethought to add more depth into the info given in s season 3 episode
An outside or maybe, But he is extremely conceded
And I could see that conceitedness leading to him enjoying the idea that the rest of the group is modeled in his image
I can see that
No offence taken, I am really saying is that the season 3 writers should know what is in Season 1, not the other way round. I understand time pressures, trying to fit in new toys as characters and so forth.
Something I think should really be explained a lot better is how exactly Energon works.
We know it's their fuel source as we've been told that in every single continuity ever. However there are a few examples that really make little sense with this concept. There are ways that they could rectify that to make it make sense if they explained more about what exactly Energon is and what it can do beyond just the generic line of "It's their fuel." Some examples of things that contradict this idea and possible suggestions of how to fix it include but are not limited to:
One of the few times we actually see anyone consume Energon in the G1 cartoon the effects on drinking it appears to be making the Decepticons drunk. If Energon is a normal source of fuel for them then it really shouldn't cause this to happen otherwise they would be just constantly drunk all the time.
A possible solution is that this is not their normal Energon that they're drinking. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that in the G1 Cartoon we see them converting other fuel sources into Energon. Maybe that specific process rather than the Energon being naturally occurring means that it can have different effects on them depending on what the Energon was made from including the possibility of making them drunk.
In Beast Wars too much exposure to raw Energon is also deadly. As a kid this kinda confused me as the show didn't really do such a great job of explaining this concept. As an adult I understand that too much of a good thing can in fact be deadly but the show kinda expects you to already understand that rather than taking the opportunity to teach that lesson to the kids watching. I'm kinda glad because it's one of the many reasons I've enjoyed Beast Wars more as an adult than I did as a child but considering it's a kids show maybe they should of explained better. They could of even used the young immature Cheetor as an audience segregate having to explain to him that even though they run on Energon that over exposure can also kill them.
This also brings up an interesting story idea... What if someone wanted to invent an alternative fuel that wouldn't also be potentially lethal if you took too much of it. Like have a story that takes place in an Energon mine on Cybertron and we get to see how dangerous a job that would be when over exposure to the raw material can be fatal. A minor could quit after seeing his best friend die from Energon overload and start working on an alternative fuel project that he hopes could save the lives of countless minors.
In Transformers Energon there's a similar concept except it's not excess Energon that's deadly, it's literally just raw Energon is deadly and no one except Omnicons and Terrorcons can touch the stuff until it's been refined. There's a few confusing concepts in this one series alone.
1. They use Energon for more than just fuel, they also make weapons out of the stuff. The weapons seem to just vanish after the battle ends. Do the Transformers absorb the weapons as fuel after each battle or to the weapons just vanish because all the Energon was used up in the fight?
2. Why don't they just design all Transformers with whatever technology allows the Omnicons and Terrorcons to handle raw Energon without dying? It doesn't really make a lot of sense why there's just one specific class on Transformer that is able to handle and process raw Energon while everyone else would die.
A possible fix for this is that maybe it's not a technological enhancement but rather a skill any Transformer could learn but they're just the only ones who know how... Although that works better for the Omnicons on the Autobot side than the Terrorcons who are all just mindless beast drones (With the exception of Scorponok) so it's not likely that a learned skill is involved if the Terrorcons who do this are all mindless drones.
3. Kicker... I don't think they ever actually explained why he's an Energon detector. I kinda like the idea as it gives the human character something to do other than needing to be rescued all the time but an explanation for this bizarre power that no one else has would be nice. And also why doesn't it go off when he's around the Autobots? I mean they have Energon inside them so really it seems that he would ALWAYS be detecting Energon near by.
Where does Energon actually come from? Some series have shown it's manufactured, others show it's a naturally concurring resource. Beast Wars showed that the Energon on Earth was put here by the Vok but in other series it's not explained how this Energy source that humans have never heard of before can exist on our planet. There are a lot of series in which Energon is a Naturally occurring substance that can be found on Earth and yet humans in those same shows had no idea what Energon is until after the Autobots explain it to them.
A good way to fix this is for the humans after being shown some Energon suddenly recognized it as something else. Like they just call it by a different name.
This gets even more confusing if the Earth is Unicron. Dark Energon is the Blood of Unicron. Megatron in Prime found Dark Energon out in space some where but they never seemed to find any on Earth which makes no sense if the Earth is the source of Dark Energon they really should never have been able to find any normal Energon on Earth.
I don't think the concept of Dark Energon was ever introduced in the Live Action films so no so much an inconsistency there. Though I do still wander how the hell the planet could be Unicron without anyone knowing.
I guess this isn't really a minor thing as Energon plays a major role in Transformers... However it feels minor considering how quickly they gloss over exactly what Energon is and what it can do. There's so many story opportunities here if they would expand upon the idea instead of always throwing out the general throw away dialog of "It's their fuel" which doesn't really explain all this other stuff. It seems like Energon should have more than just one throw away line to explain what it is and what it can do. These contradictions only really exist because they rarely talk about it beyond that but if they explained in more detail it could fix a lot of these problems and open up so many more story ideas than just "It's their fuel" ever could.
I want more stuff about the Combaticons. Especially Brawl. There never seems to be anything focusing on him. And he's my favorite.
They basically just appear in 4 episodes and then a little bit in the comics.
Separate names with a comma.