Megatron is really Starscream

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by SaberPrime, Aug 28, 2011.

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  1. Overlord Balder

    Overlord Balder Voices Slugslinger!

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    That's fine for me, I know people may like previous versions of the character best or dislike Optimus' willingness to kill in the movie-verse, what people CAN'T say is that this trait was created by the movie-verse when he did that WAY before Bay came into play, that's something that genuinely cannot be considered as an argument.

    I think you misunderstood what I meant [or I mispoke]: I was not refering to the situations where Megatron is beaten on the ground, I was refering to the situations [once or twice an episode] where Optimus charges against his enemies wielding his Ion Blaster and firing against everyone [or when he stands up to Megatron], seeing as that's a military weapon, that thing is supposed to be killing people, which means that Optimus is essentially trying to kill the Decepticons he fights with, he just never did because the writing wouldn't allow him [making him always miss the target or making the target survive].

    After all, it's impossible to fight [let alone WIN] a War without killing anyone.

    In short: Optimus intended to "kill" his enemies on G1, he just wasn't keen on the IDEA of killing them, and for such, he would avoid doing the deed as much as possible, a Technical Pacifist, if you may.
     
  2. UltraMagnus2008

    UltraMagnus2008 Autobot

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    You might want to check your mangina,i think its bleeding 1985'
     
  3. sto_vo_kor_2000

    sto_vo_kor_2000 Banned

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    I dont mind it so much either, althou I do feel he kills to often.

    I may have misunderstood you, but I feel my reply would have still been along the same lines.

    Ure he "fired" his weapon at the enemy, but its obvious that firing bit alone was never enough to kill.And he never went further.

    Also, he had the ability to control the destructive power of his weapon....and Optimus didnt miss that often, even thou the Cons missed just about every time.

    And I repeat, as unrealistic as it may seem, he never had a confirmed enemy kill.
    If it was his "intent" to kill it seems likely he wouldf have racked in at least 1 confirmed kill.

    it may be unrealistic, but 80's Optimus never showed any intent to kill.
     
  4. sto_vo_kor_2000

    sto_vo_kor_2000 Banned

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    I dont get it
     
  5. Overlord Balder

    Overlord Balder Voices Slugslinger!

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    Still seems like quite fair of "magical writing powers" went into that, G1-Optimus Prime looked to me much more like a guy who kills, but avoids it [after all, he was the one to say "Megatron must be DESTROYED.", he just didn't do so because he never had the chance], not as a downright Pacifist.
     
  6. sto_vo_kor_2000

    sto_vo_kor_2000 Banned

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    I dont believe he ever said ""Megatron must be DESTROYED."The closet to that, that I remember was, "Megatron must be stopped...no matter the cost".

    And again, you can call it "magical writing" but they made not killing part of how the character was depicted.He had plenty of chances to kill Megatron and he deliberately did not.

    No one is saying 80's Optimus was a Pacifist, but he was depicted as a "no killing guy".
     
  7. shockwave2005

    shockwave2005 Well-Known Member

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    Well, looks like another thread just derailed into Movie Optimus vs. G1 Optimus territory.

    In "More Than Meets The Eye", Prime makes it clear that he has absolutely no intention of letting Megatron live during the final showdown - Prime says "Only ONE of us is going back, Megatron!"

    I highly doubt that Prime would ever leave Megatron behind on Earth in a functioning state, which pretty much means that Prime would have to kill him.

    This never happened because:

    1. MTME was the pilot for an ongoing cartoon series for kids.
    2. It's a kids cartoon = no killing. As a kid in the 80's, I remember articles criticizing the original cartoon for being overly violent - and that was before the '86 movie even came out.

    Sorry, but Balder's right - Optimus not killing was the byproduct of it being a show FOR KIDS.
     
  8. sto_vo_kor_2000

    sto_vo_kor_2000 Banned

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    and yet.............he failed to kill anyone.

    \

    and yet he never really committed to doing so.

    not exactly.

    They werent sure at all they were getting a on going series.
    and I repeat, thats the "real world" answer.

    and had the episodes been written with the bad guys just getting away it could be assumed that Prime may have killed if he got the chance.

    But thats just not the case.They wrote episodes that left the Decepticons in Primes mercy, giving Optimus the perfect oppertunity to kill Megatron, and all he did was let him get up and go.

    Actually he's not right because thats not the issue.I acknowledge that its because the show was for kids.......but the writers also wrote it into the way the character was depicted.

    The reason they did it is irrelevant to my point.

    It would have been "out of character" for 80's Optimus to kill as his Bay counterpart does because he was never depicted as willing to do so.
     
  9. shockwave2005

    shockwave2005 Well-Known Member

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    Yes. He lets them go because it's a kids cartoon and being above the enemy is a good moral to teach children. However, there was also the fact that the writers needed to make sure that they reset the stage for the next episode, as they were making plenty of episodes by that point.

    I also love how you conveniently glossed over my point about the criticisms of kids cartoons being too violent in the 80's.

    But whatever, I can't keep arguing points to people who don't want to accept actual reality based answers.
     
  10. sto_vo_kor_2000

    sto_vo_kor_2000 Banned

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    dp
     
  11. sto_vo_kor_2000

    sto_vo_kor_2000 Banned

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    And yet, in the 86 movie , when the writers were allowed to show death in the story, Optimus still failed to kill anyone.

    And BTW, not one Autobot killed any of the Decepticons.

    And you still dont get it.

    Wether it was for the moral fiber of the kids or for a set up for the next story.........Their reasons for doing it is irrelevant.They wrote it into the story as part of the characters personalty.They depicted Optimus as a guy that would rather let the bad guys go then stop them once and for all.

    Its how the character was portrayed....even if it was unrealistic, it was done.

    I didnt "glossed over" it, I had nothing to say about it.It was a person opinion back then.I read similar articals and rebuttals that claimed the shows werent "real" enough.You brought it up but I fail to see your "point" in doing so.Whats the point behind mentioning a 20=year old article written by someone else?

    you havent provided anything of substance here.Sorry if that sounded rude

    the reasons that the toon stayed away from killing characters was never in debate.the fact that Bays Optimus doing so differes from how the 80's toon version of the character was depicted was and is my point...........and you havent posted anything that addresses that issue.
     
  12. Transformed

    Transformed 神戸 Member

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    It’s always nice to find a contradictory argument in these threads.

    The OP whole argument is supported by the live-action’s barrowed similarities to the original cartoon/comics. Not only did the live-action movies use many names from the G1 continuities it gave them similar alternate modes, weapons, rank and attitudes. The OP’s complaints about Megatron being different are valid, as the similarities of the live-action show out way the differences.

    If Michael Bay and/or Hasbro didn’t want similarities to be drawn between what came before and now, they should have started fresh with new models and characters.
     
  13. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime System Pride

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    You know what, try actually reading into the topic some more. I'm just going to start ignoring everyone who responds with "This is not G1" I know it's not G1, I'm not complaining that it's not G1. I'm complaining that it's not recognizable. Anyone who doesn't get the difference between a legitimate complaint and a Geewhinner doesn't know crap about the history of Transformers.
     
  14. Rogzilla

    Rogzilla Well-Known Member

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    Wow...so this might not be "Geewun" but it is pretty much "This isn't the way I want it to be so it isn't right". God forbid people do something new with a franchise. I mean, was it that big of a deal that the Joker wore make up or that Two-Face wasn't obsessed with the number two in the Dark Knight? Was it that big of a deal that Ra's al Ghul wasn't an immortal and turned out to be an integral part of Bruce Wayne's training?

    I personally very much enjoyed the Starscream we got in this franchise. He was cowardly and petty and a bully. Oh, and he DID lead the Decepticons. TWICE. And he actually proved to be a much more effective leader than Megatron.

    The point is, why keep doing things exactly the same way. Not change for the sake of change but don't stick to previous ideas just because "it was done that way before". That's boring and the worse kind of fanboy-ism.
     
  15. Chaos Prime

    Chaos Prime Combaticon

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    [​IMG]
     
  16. Chaos Prime

    Chaos Prime Combaticon

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    I agree with you, and I disagree with you. I think change can be a very good thing. But for the me the changes have to be good. Let's take Batman for example; I think they were modified to fit the dark and gritty feel of the movies. And technically Ra's al Ghul was still an immortal; in metaphorical sense. The person portraying him is mortal, but it was the name which hung around longer than living person.

    Nad yes, I do believe Starscream was more better leader than Megatron was, sadly. He was more competent than Megs was.
    I think the bigger problem that the OP has with the movies is how bizarrely Megatron's portrayed.

    When a favorite franchise is finally converted to a movie, people have certain expectations about the movie. And you expect to see your favorite characters portrayed as you know them to be.
    Have you seen Ghost Rider? Do you recall the villain Dark Heart? Throughout the movie he was in his human form, and towards the end of the movie I was expecting him to shed that form and turn into his true demon form. Well that never happened. And I was disappointed.
    The character that I was expecting to see never actually showed up in the movie. The same thing can be said for Megatron.
     
  17. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime System Pride

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    That's not what I said at all. Sorry but did you even read my post or did you just scheme over it?

    Any time you use a name brand like "Transformers" the existing fans are going to be the Target audience. That's a fact.

    The movie versions do change things to try and widen that target audience beyond the existing fans. That's a fact.

    Where this movie fails is that they changed things so much that they alienated most of their original target audience. And Bay did that intentionally. That's taking a huge risk to take a brand like that and change it so much that the fans don't know what they hell they're watching. You don't know if the regular movie goers are going to like it or not and it's not going to matter to them what you do with it anyway, they won't even know anything is different unless you tell them.

    If you want to target the general public, make something new, don't remake something with a fan base. If you make something with a fan base you have to cater to the fans or that's not what you're making.

    Do I expect them to cater to every fan? Of course not because the options of all fans is going to be different. But I expect them to take the best of all the words, make their own tweaks and make something great out of it. Not to do their own thing all over the place and make something that isn't even Transformers anymore. This is Transmorphers. That's seriously what it is, they're the same movie except one doesn't try to be something they're not.

    Yup you just schemed over it. I gotta stop over explaining things. :p  But then I end up under explaining and you still don't know what I'm talking about. Where's the middle ground?

    Have you looked at them? Starscream's head in the movie has Waspinator's little bug eyes, he has the molding for the wasp antennas on his head, and his lower jaw looks like bug mandibles. How can you not see that?

    I need to search and see if that that kitbash movie Starscream as Waspinator is still floating around.

    Naive? Excuse me you can't really think I'd say such a thing without knowing a thing or two about the movie industry do you? And rude is an understatement for questioning what I've spent my life time learning. Thanks for making me feel like I've wasted my life for the last 22 years.

    When you say they were after the general movie audience not the established fanbase, you're technically right. Bay even said that. But what you don't seem to be getting is that Bay is an idiot.

    They were using an established brand which already makes the established fanbase the target audience. It doesn't really matter what Bay said or wanted, that's a fact, the established audience is always the target audience.

    What an intelligent director does is changes the movie to broaden that audience beyond just the fans because he knows the fans are still going to come in no matter what but you don't just want fans you want to bring in people who know nothing about the franchise.

    With any new material weather it be entirely new or just something different in an established brand you don't know if you're going to be able to attract an audience so anything you do with that is going to be a gamble weather it works or not.

    But the absolute worst thing you can possibly do to an established brand is to repeal the majority of it's existing fans away. Once the old fans are gone and all you have are the new fans you've already lost at least 75% of your entire audience.

    And you also gotta think that Bay said he didn't want to make a toy commercial. Transformers is ultimately still a toy brand. Hasbro has be able to sell toys still and the movies as well as repelling fans I think would repel most parents because the movies are full of sexual humor and cussing. Wheelie alone is enough to make parents grab their kids and walk out of the theater. Not that I necessarily agree with that mentality, I personally don't see anything wrong with it but I'm not in the majority here. It's kinda hard to sell toys to kids who's parents aren't going to let them watch the movies.

    All this being said, it's a freaking miracle they didn't do a reboot after the first movie. It's a freaking miracle Hasbro has still been able to produce and sell toys from this. But in all honestly, I think thing the majority of the people who watch these movies and buy these toys are still adult fans. Because we'll buy anything with the brand name on it. Just admit it, you guys know you're guilty of buying crap toys that you hate just because it was your favorite character and you know you're guilty of watching anything Transformers regardless of actually liking that particular version. Because if you don't buy stuff you hate or watch shows you hate just because it says Transformers on it, how do you know you hate it? You'd basically be hating it because it's Transformers and then you're not a fan.
     
  18. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime System Pride

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    Using your own example. Yes the Dark Night changed things but it's still a great thing for two main reasons. We can still recognize who the characters are and it has a plot that makes sense. Transformers doesn't have any of that and that's what my complaints are about.

    If Batman had been wearing a red and gold suit of armor that looks nothing like a bat, the Ra's Al Ghul had been a fat bald man, The joker had been dressed in black leather pants and had electro whips, and Two-Face had been a normal guy who transforms into a giant muscular killing machine would that Batman of been any good? Of course not, I just described characters from the Ironman movies and the Hulk.

    That's pretty much the issue I have with movie Transformers is that they look more like characters from entirely different franchise than they look like Transformers. Like the little balls that combine to form Reedman. They're Destroyer Driods from Star Wars, what the hell are they doing in Transformers? Wheelie, Wall-E. Bay even admitting to ripping off designs from Terminator. (Not kidding, look at the special features on Revenge of the Fallen) This stuff should not be in Transformers. This shouldn't even be legal, seriously how is Bay getting away with ripping off copy right material from other movies and putting it in Transformers?

    Again, not at all what I'm saying. All the changes in Transformers are just "change for the sake of change".

    Great example. They wanted to do away with mass shifting (which they didn't, there's still mass shifting in the movies) which I was all for but I was against the idea of having them break into thousands of little pieces so that they look like a robot built from a few spare car parts rather than a robot that can actually become a car.

    They wanted to get rid of Prime's trailer because in the old cartoons it just disappeared when he became a robot but in the movies like 90% of every character's alt mode vanish when they're robots anyway.

    So the changes don't really make any sense. They say it's for "realism" but it's less real than the original was. The only point on the designs that isn't actually more realistic is Optimus Prime's face, I'm point him out mainly because he gets most of the close up. But in all the cartoons the robot faces are completely solid pieces of metal that shouldn't actually be able able to move. Movie Prime, if you look at his face, has allot of little panels that would allow for his face to actually be able to move. That's the one change they made that they can honestly say is for realism. Everything else is what the hell were they thinking?

    Changing alt modes I'm fine with, they do that all the time anyway. It doesn't bother me that Bumblebee is not a VW anymore. I actually like the Camero, I just don't like how he transforms and ends up with a broken robot mode with no freaking face. Make him more like the HA toy with out the fake license plate and gas tank on his crotch, no broken up chest, a more recognizable head sculpt and I'd freaking love him.

    See you can tell the difference between someone who genuinely hates the designs and a G1er because the first thing the G1er says is "OH MY GAWD HE'S NOT A VW ANYMORE I HATE IT!" and then you can tell him "This isn't G1" and I'll be right there with you telling them "This is not G1"

    Alt modes don't matter in Transformers, robot modes do.
     
  19. Scorpio

    Scorpio Well-Known Member

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    In the first film, Starscream is basically forced by remaining Megatron loyalists to find Megatron. He had made no attempt to prior and was only on Earth to find the Allspark. The moment Megatron was back Starscream became a snivelling coward and followed Megatrons commands in the final battle (Although the F-22 scene did impress me as it hinted Starscream may have attacked Megatron, but of course they led this nowhere)

    In the second film, Starscream is "The Fallens" bitch. Although he says "someone else had to take command" it is actually "The Fallen" bossing him around, he stepped in solely because he was doing "The Fallens" bidding.

    In the third film, after their defeat in the second Starscream just hides behind Megatron not even bothering not betray him or do anything other than snivel and compliment Megatron until his death.

    Throught the films Megatron goes behind the back of every other Decepticon leader, in the books he betrayed "The Fallen" and left him to be killed. In the third film he uses Sentinel then betrays him.

    Bay`s Decepticons in general suffer from a lack of motivation. In the first film Megatron is just out for conquest and the other Decepticons blindly follow. During the second film the Decepticons are all forced into working on "The Fallens" plan to harvest the sun. In the third they`re all so bored of war that they dont bother doing anything. In fact other than taking out a few humans only Soundwave from the Decepticons actually kills anyone :/ (Seeing as Sentinel is still an Autobot)

    The original concept art (I remember seeing on Tfw2005 back just after the first film) had Starscream sporting a black F-22 alt mode with a yellow cockpit with the name Waspinator. Although this may have been to throw people off, Starscreams personallity during the films does suggest a more Waspinator stlyed charecter.

    "Megatron being someone's 'bitch' would actually make for a good storyline if they would work it in Prime, because they would have more than a couple hours to explore how there is someone badder than Megatron"

    They did that twice, once with "The Fallen", once with Sentinel Prime. He also got his ass kicked by Optimus at the end of both the second and third film.

    "Not trying to be mean, but this just sounds like "HASBRO YOU NEED TO STEP IN AND MAKE IT LIKE G1 DONT LET THEM CHANGE ANYTHING AT ALL" to me"

    I really hate where silly TFW2005 board members use this as an excuse. Anyway, rising above that. He was never stating that fact. Simply Starscream needed a similar personallity to how he was portrayed in all other series of Transforms.

    He was pretty much a generic Decepticon with one or two good sets of lines dished out every now and again (And most of those were in the second film in the brief Nemesis Scene)

    "We've seen before that movies that are more fan based don't do so well (I believe someone said this was the case with Green Lantern? I haven't seen it yet). But movies that throw out references that only fans will understand or have things happen that old fans could make sense of would alienate the general movie going audience, thus make the movie not sell well anyway."

    Oh come on, refrencing a movie that you have`nt seen as a reason why all films based off fans prefences suck :banghead: 

    It wasnt that which made Green Lantern fail, its the principle of the entire film. magic ring that can create anything that was given to him by a dying alien so he can help defeat an alien monster which only he can defeat due to him being afraid of nothing and using common sense, despite thousands of other Green Lanterns being unable to stop it.

    Now i`m a fan of the Green lantern series, but i have to admit, the whole idea of the movie pushed it just a little bit (a lot)
     
  20. Irony

    Irony fangirl

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    I agree that Megatron was somewhat Starscream-like but I disagree that he would be the worst or ugliest Megatron at all time. Just look at TFP Megatron for both.
     
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