Masterpiece Ironhide New Images

Discussion in 'Transformers News and Rumors' started by unexpectedpanda, Jul 17, 2015.

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  1. SMOG

    SMOG Vocabchampion ArgueTitan

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    Unprompted, I held both figures up for my GF to see, and said "these are actually part of the same line", at which point she made an incredulous face, and said "Wow, it's like the designer completely changed or something!" I think it certainly says something when a relative outsider to Transformers can spot that discrepancy so immediately (although she does have an industrial design background, so she's attuned to these things).

    For myself, obviously I much prefer the previous aesthetic. I prefer the metallic faces to the off-white painted ones. I like surface detailing on the limbs and stuff, not blank flat surfaces, and geometric body parts like un-rendered polygons. I want my MP Transformers to look like improved versions of the great Transformer toys I had as a kid, not slavish imitations of an overly simplified 2D cartoon. Ironhide does look quite nice on his own, but he certainly crosses that line with his overly simplified aesthetic. I'm really surprised to see Takara switch styles mid-stream like that (especially with the 1984-85 'diaclone' guys, who should be somewhat consistent).

    Part of me is sort of wondering whether to stick with the series. The only reason I was buying MPs in the first place was to have a "perfect" 1984-85 Autobot crew display... and now that's sort of messed up. It already bugs me that I'm going to feel obliged to buy a Ratchet that will feel as incongruous as Ironhide. :( 

    I kind of disagree on Shockwave... he's not actually simplified very much at all... he's almost a straight-up homage to the original toy, though the flat colour finish he's been shown with gives off the illusion of a simpler, more "2D cartoon" aesthetic. And of course, as usual, the exact shape of his face is never quite done right. But still a beautiful looking piece. The only real distraction is all the fragmentation lines on his upper legs.

    Ironhide has never really been consistently shown to be all that 'big' in any of the G1 fictions or media... especially not that much bigger than his fellow bots. He's also not especially strong compared to other Autobots, so for me seeing him towering over everyone feels very out-of-place (and it'll feel even more so for Ratchet). For me, this is a "scale chart fail".

    But whatevs. Nice toy. Maybe I'll display him in vanette mode or something. *shrug*

    zmog
     
  2. Sy-Rein

    Sy-Rein Rogue Stunticon

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    While I understand some of the niggles. They really don't bother me at all.

    To me, Ironhide looks great, has a fantastic transformation and very much exemplifies his cartoon appearance at the same time looks like the MP he's supposed to be. He fits in great on my MP shelf and while yes I can plainly see he's not 100% perfect, I can ignore the very small percentage that isn't perfect.

    I'm not trying to be on a high horse or white knighting or whatever the kids call it these days, but I do think some people go over the top with nitpicking these MPs and lose out on a lot of enjoyment because of it.

    That being said, there will also be changes and improvements in design and engineering over the course of this rather extended line. If we look at MP-10 (or MP-11 might even a better example) and compare it to MP-50 or 60, whatever, that's years down the line. There will most definitely be aesthetic difference simply due to time, advancements and designers trying to do something different or innovative.

    A more present day example would be to compare Classics to Generations. They all fit into one overall line but compare a seeker mold to Tracks/Wheeljack (or some other more modern figure). There's a marked difference but they still look good together and fit well within their overall encompassing line. Sure the seeker is looking a bit dated but they are still nice representations of a modern take on the characters.

    I mean really, it's not like we're talking comparing Animated to the Movie aesthetic. (This last line is meant as a humorous end to my "rant").
     
  3. Oshboggy

    Oshboggy DeceptiCobra DeathAdderCon

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    I think that TT Shockwave could have done with more of that surface detailing/panel-scribing you were talking about earlier. He seems to be a damned sight nicer looking overall than Ironhide and to a lesser extent Hot Rod, but still a little bit too "bland toon".

    Haven't been expecting much from the official MP line now - certainly nowhere close to the time when Lambor and Datsun bros were released. It's not the way I would have wished it to be, but what can you do.
     
  4. SMOG

    SMOG Vocabchampion ArgueTitan

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    No, of course there's not a stylistic difference on that level. But leaning too far towards a "flat cartoon" aesthetic does actually kill a lot of what I liked about the earlier Masterpiece figures.

    Classics/Generations I found was always much more compromised and inconsistent in terms of style, scale, aesthetics, etc... but up till now, the new MP line was pretty much golden in my view. I can track my waning enthusiasm pretty much to the new designer (Tracks, right?).

    There's still a lot to love about Hot Rod and Ironhide... but they don't quite exude the nigh-perfection that I felt the earlier molds managed. They always feel like they're 85%. Like, still mostly good, but it's hard to ignore that 15% that isn't quite there.

    I'm really not sure what to expect from Shockwave. I like the heavy toy influence on the styling, but there's still something about him that looks potentially flimsy. In terms of detailing, it feels like most of the lines and surface detailing from the old G1 version is there... though I think the shapes are a bit off... like his forearms for example, which are a bit too hard-edged and geometric, and lack the more graceful shape of the original. I'm especially petty about Shockwave because I liked the original so much.

    I'm curious about what's next in the G1 pipe... I'm not excited over Ratchet, really.

    zmog
     
  5. Xaxis

    Xaxis Multi-dimensional Traveler

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    I tend to disagree with the opinion that Ironhide is such a shift from the level of detail seen in previous MPs towards a "flat cartoon" aesthetic.

    Ironhide has plenty of sculpted detail to be found when one really examines the figure closely. To me it's not a matter of him being a less detailed figure, but more about the placement of those details. He fits in just fine with the rest of the Autobots and really doesn't deviate much at all from the established aesthetic of the line.

    I think what we're seeing is bound to happen as different characters are given the MP treatment. Each character has different compromises that will need to be made due to the physics of transforming a vehicle with a real-world likeness into a robot that resembles that character's cartoon model. Each character will have areas of detail that deviate from either the cartoon model or the G1 toy, and the placement and addition of detail will vary depending on various factors. Same for proportions in comparison to whats "correct" for any given character.

    It also seems that there's some expectation of perfection for the MP line has crept into conversations, which doesn't make sense to me as we've not yet had a single MP release that was a perfect representation of any character. They all have their issues and they all have differences from one another due to the differences in their vehicle and robot designs. The variations from one release to the next really aren't worth all the fuss some people raise, and I don't think it has as much to do with a change in designer as people tend to believe.

    Sure, there will be certain things that one designer would do differently than another, but we know from interviews that there's a design team that gives input throughout the process and that one person isn't solely responsible for every aspect of a figure's end design. Knowing that a team is involved and that there's been an overall plan/vision/standard for the line since MP-10 suggests that the team will continue to maintain certain boundaries and guidelines in the overall aesthetic of the line in order to retain a cohesive feel throughout all of the characters.

    The truth is, even with recent changes in lead designers, all of the MP releases since MP-10 work together as a whole much more than the small group of MP releases that came before them. MP-10 kicked off a solidified direction for the line and, in my opinion, Takara Tomy hasn't strayed from that direction with the recent additions.
     
  6. DinoSnarl

    DinoSnarl Obese chocoholic

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    I do agree with the comments about the new characters being too bland or cartoon accurate.

    However I still think it's too early to say the line has been "rebooted" as such. Perhaps there just wasn't much they could do with the Nissan Chery Vanette.

    I am very interested to see how the next couple of carbots turn out however.
     
  7. Max Rawhide

    Max Rawhide Rollin' Rollin' Rollin' ... uh, never mind

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    Exactly why I still haven't unpacked mine.

    I'm absolutely positive that it is a good figure. Fun and amazing to transform and pretty posable.

    But he's just too big compared to the others. He was never that big, not in the comics, not in the cartoon and not even on the Holy Scale Chart. On the latter Ironhide seems about a head shorter compared to Optimus, about the size the new MP Hot Rod is. Actually, of the four moulds since Hasui has left, only Tracks seems to be the right size: Magnus is too big (at least by a head), Ironhide seems about a head too big, and even Hot Rod looks to me to be a little too big...

    ...And then there's the lack of detailing as well. I see very little toy influences in the little designs (like we had on the previous carbots). Especially the legs could've benefitted from some small detailing taken from the G1 toy.


    If I look at my MP collection, then with MP-10 through MP-21 I can see flaws, I can see things that perhaps could've been better, but these to me are the perfect recreations of these characters: cartoon+toy+memory. And despite minor nitpicks, if TT or 3rd party never releases these characters again, I don't mind because they are good.

    MP-22 and onward...just as much nitpicking, but with each figure I've been hesitant. With each figure I don't feel that this is the definitive version of that character. And with each figure I'm hoping for either a TT redo (unlikely) or a 3rd party version. Not that they're bad figures, they're just not the best possible version of these characters possible.
     
  8. Shiro1

    Shiro1 Well-Known Member

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    I just wanted to say that I couldn't agree more with everything SMOG has said about the line of late and Ironhide specifically. The line has clearly lost its 'ideal vision of what we remember' that Hasui once expressed.

    Several prior MPs have added detailing that is mostly toy inspired. Some of it even *gasp* is made up. The weird thing is, that includes Tracks as well. I think they went out of their way to make Ironhide plane and to include toon-oddities such as the large crotch because they thought those features were endearing to the character. I'm hoping that decision ends with the Vanettes and future MPs will return to the previous precedent. Tracks shows that Kobayashi can and does include detailing when he wants to.

    I'm not as fussed by his height, as I see his primary problem in that department being caused by stretched proportions more than merely being too tall. It's that larger problem overall that needs to be resolved. His height would naturally be shorter by doing so.

    Oddly enough, I have one additional gripe that I haven't seen brought up and honestly I didn't expect to have myself... Has anyone noticed how unbelievably glossy Ironhide is compared to the other MPs? When I'm watching tv, I can see a clear reflection in him that I don't see in any other MP, even painted ones. I guess it's an odd thing to complain about...in fact I think I'd rather the others were more glossy rather than him less...but as is being discussed here, it really makes him feel out of place with the others.

    Overall, I think what still disappoints me most about Ironhide is his lack of 'Nissan' branding and mirrors. That breaks a precedent that I feel was absolutely foundational to the MP line. In fact, that branding on the vehicle mode was one of the reasons I decided to collect MPs. It showed an attention to detail and care that blew me away. Heck, even 3Ps like BadCube and XTB make an effort to include it in their real-car releases. Takara's exclusion of those fundamental details to me is inexcusable...
     
  9. WinstoBot

    WinstoBot Well-Known Member

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    I finally changed him back to a van after a week of marveling at his robot mode. Man, I love the van mode. My wife wasn't sure it was a Transformer because they are usually military vehicles or super hot cars but a van was so...pedestrian. He gives so much variety to the Autobot vehicle line up. In much the same way Bumblebee's VW has and Trailbreaker might someday. And that glossy red paint, c'mon that's the hottest fire engine red ever! Still, I wish the factory took better care of the chrome. It looks a bit beat up out of the box but luckily that suits old Ironhide just fine. So glad my Prime now has his old buddy and we get to enjoy the mold again as Ratchet.

    "When are we gonna start bust'n Deceptichops?!"
     
  10. malware5

    malware5 Well-Known Member

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    Well, truth be told I'm quite the happy camper with Ironhide, minus the hip kibble, of course, but even with that he's still a fantastic toy, lots of fun, very poseable and fluid and fun transformation.

    I don't think Ironhide is that big, he's perfect in relation to Prime, I think it's the carbots that are way too short and Hot Rod is the living embodiment of this fact. If scale of the alt-mode was being worried about, well.. from where I see it, it should have been a non-issue as the carbots are out of scale to Optimus anyway, making them slightly bigger in car mode so they could be Hot Rod sized in robot mode, wouldn't have made heads turn any more than they have been already.

    And Hot Rod is also able to fit into Prime's trailer so that interaction Takara cherishes so much would have still been there had the carbots been a bit bigger.
     
  11. Dean ML

    Dean ML Well-Known Member

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    Ironhide fuckin rocks. The more time goes by the more I love him, even more than Bumblebee, so Ironhide's ended up somewhere in my top four with Prime, Star Saber, and Ultra Magnus.

    Fuckin love the gloss on this guy. Broken record here but if I'm bothered by the finish on any of the carbots it's Wheeljack's bare plastic. That's the one that stands out to me on the shelf. He looks far less premium than the rest.

    I cannot give enough praise to the designers for editing out unnecessary surface details. As others have pointed out, he has quite a bit between all the folded panels, kibble, and hinges as well as tastefully placed sculpted details on his collar plate, in the recesses of his ankles, on his back - it's there if you look. I actually think MP-10 has too much invented surface detail.

    Couldn't be bothered in the least about the Nissan badge. We know it's licensed and the badge amounts to a tiny dot on the figure. Not bothered by the lack of mirrors, either.

    His size is about as perfect as I could hope for. As others have pointed out, it's the rest of the carbots that are too small compared to Prime. Hot Rod's the only one I feel like his size is really off. I would've liked him to be closer to Ironhide's height.

    That Hasui quote about these things not being slavish to the cartoon and being idealized versions of the characters is brought up frequently around here. I think he gave that interview right after MP-10's release. The thing is Hasui himself in a later interview said the recreating the cartoon model is primary goal. Kobayashi did not come in and change the direction of the line. I'm sure that even though Hasui's not the lead designer anymore he's still consulted with and has some input. TT's design team is a small group and they seem fairly close knit.

    I'm finding more and more I just don't relate to the majority of the posters on this board with regards to my feelings and impressions of this line. I'm fuckin lovin it. Only way I could love it more is by adding more G1 figures to the collection.
     
  12. SMOG

    SMOG Vocabchampion ArgueTitan

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    I feel that this is factually incorrect.

    Pick up Prowl and put him next to Ironhide. Discount the parts of each figure that represent the realistic shell of their vehicle alt mode. Compare aesthetic detailing between them.

    There really isn't much comparison. Ironhide is almost all broad, flat, smooth shapes. The thighs, forearms, shoulders... everything on the Fairlady Z mold has some detailing (most of it inspired by the toy).

    Admittedly, working from the G1 Ironhide toy as inspiration has some obvious limitations... heh. But I still think they should have tried a bit harder to blend the aesthetics. I'm not saying that the cartoonish simplicity of Ironhide's surfaces can't be appealing... but when you put him next to other MP cars, it sure does stand out (especially at the larger scale).

    I think that there are multiple paths one can take in approaching those transformations, not always governed solely by necessities of 'physics' though... different artists have different styles, different personal priorities, different aesthetics... and I do feel that we're seeing that at work in the last few MP cars. The Ironhide we got was not necessitated by the adaptation of the character from the vehicle mode. We got this Ironhide because of the creative decisions made by the designer... which we can agree or disagree with. In this case, I certainly disagree.

    Relative perfection is certainly in the eye of the beholder. Contextually, Ironhide is certainly the 'least perfect' MP car bot to come down the line, in my opinion. By that, I mean that the engineering and aesthetic compromises are least effective, and he doesn't gel well with any other figure in the line (except maaaaybe Hot Rod, who shares a similar simplified surface style).

    I'm sorry, but, first off, expressing your likes/dislikes, feelings, and critiques of a figure on an online toy forum shouldn't count as a "fuss"... so don't be dismissive. These may be 'toys', but collectors place a certain amount of personal and economic investment in a line like Masterpiece. It's natural for people to have expectations (and to expect a certain degree of consistency).

    Secondly, I feel that the change in lead designer is extremely evident to anyone who is attentive to aspects of design. In fact, I noted the change before I even heard about Hasui leaving, and as I mentioned above, my partner (not being a Transformers initiate) immediately sniffed out a blatant design shift between Ironhide and the Fairlady mold, on sight.

    Yeah, I have to wonder how that works, and the most obvious answer is that the Lead Designer makes a lot of those most evident and important aesthetic decisions, and insists upon different priorities... and the rest of the team follows their... uh... lead. I'm reasonably sure it's not a democracy, where everybody just puts in their personal prefernce, and a magical blended toy results.

    Well, I'm not sure that's much of a comparison to make... the original MP line was pointedly inconsistent, and stretched over a longer period. Saying "oh, this other line had problems too" doesn't negate criticisms of this line.

    I'd rather that Ironhide blend in with the first half-dozen MP Cars, than carry on the line in such a way that all the early molds look too small. At the moment, with the current proportions of the line, Ironhide is the one who sticks out, not the other cars. Personally, I think it's much more important for Ironhide to look consistent with his fellow bots, than to look exactly right just with MP10.

    :lol  So all the places that DON'T have an immediate aesthetic impact on how the figure looks. Got it. Hidden detail, on a figure that is mostly plain, flat, smooth geometric boxes. Hooray. Just what I wanted... an Ironhide who evokes the image of a lazy cosplayer in cardboard armour. :D 

    But I'm glad you like him. :) 

    Cheers, guys. :)  It's nice to know that I'm not just a lone voice in the wilderness, and that other people actually see this stuff too. I mean, I think there's a tendency for people to turn a blind eye to this stuff, because they'd rather just enjoy what they have... which I totally understand. But it's one thing to say "sure it's a flaw, but it doesn't really bother me personally" and quite another to say "no, that flaw doesn't even exist, you're wrong".

    Well, that's an interrelated thing. I suspect that he seems a bit stretched precisely because they were trying to attain the height seen in the Holy Scale Chart (regardless of the fact that once achieved, it would look wrong). So I agree... they should have compressed his proportions more, rather than expanding the figure in the transformation to such a degree.

    Hmmm... I'm not sure if that shiny-ness actually bothers me, but I will say that he certainly makes Sideswipe look dull when you put them side-by-side. It feels like, if anything, the hot supercar should have been in the vibrant glossy red, and the mundane vanette/old warhorse character should have been in the duller red.

    Okay, so it's not just me. Yeah, the chrome was a bit scuffed up on mine as well.

    zmog
     
  13. ex dtw2003

    ex dtw2003 Well-Known Member

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    I think that the plain-ness is exacerbated by the glossiness. A matte finish would likely help immensely.

    Even with that changed, he'd still have those incredibly goofy Ed Grimley proportions.

    And yes, the lack of Datsun logo is a huge loss IMHO.
     
  14. DesertDog

    DesertDog Gone Fission’.

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    Add another vote for Ironhide's awesomeness. I barely even see his crotch nor even his hip kibble anymore and his lower back wheels never bothered me at all as they are not on his ass. Other than his frangible thumbs and magical disappearing chrome the only things I'd change would be his slightly arduous arm transformation (clearance wise) and optional Toy based decals for his knees. And of course add a Toy accurate mode.:D 

    Looking at photos of the actual Nissan Cherry Vanette I'm happy that Takara made the correct decision not to include either variation of the mirrors as they would either end up on his chest or on his hip kibble, both of which would just look stupid. As far as Make and Model badging goes, I'm quite happy that he doesn't have "Cherry Vanette" anywhere, especially his chest, but a Nissan over the rear licence plate would have been nice. Reprolabels to the rescue, I hope.

    Hindsight being 20/20 I think Takara and Hasbro could have spared themselves a lot of trouble by simply insisting that the Toon and Comic actually depicted the toys being sold instead of being lazy and dishonest by simplistically anthropomorphizing Ratchet and Ironhide. They could have done some interesting things with those two but they went with the cheaper option. And confused a lot of kids who thought that the toys were made for the show instead of the other way around. Now they both have to deal with being accurate to generic character models as opposed to their far more interesting but admittedly odd toys. If a 3rd Party made Masterpiece scaled figures based on their box art I'd be over the Moon.
     
  15. Shiro1

    Shiro1 Well-Known Member

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    The 'Nissan' over the rear license plate is all that I ask\expect. Regarding the mirrors, they have placed optional holes on the doors of Bumblebee and Tracks...I don't really see an issue with optional holes on Ironhide's hip kibble either. Admittedly it would look stupid if you just left the mirrors on in bot mode, but it would be nice to have the option for alt mode. These two things don't seem like too much to ask for :) 
     
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  16. ex dtw2003

    ex dtw2003 Well-Known Member

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    The mirrors are a tough one. I love the mirrors on the other cars but yeah, they are huge on the actual vehicle and would be crazy distracting.

    Holes with optional mirrors would seem like a good compromise but I think they'd be extremely fragile and therefore might actually make more mad than happy when they broke. And then there's the holes for the (what I would assume would be a) majority who don't install them.

    But the Nissan or Datsun or even just the logo is a necessity.
     
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  17. WinstoBot

    WinstoBot Well-Known Member

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    I don't get it either, here we have one of the best MP's in recent times but all I see are pages and pages of unhappy collectors. It's like we're talking about a different figure entirely. I had planned on writing a long glowing review of this Big Red Boxy Bot of awesomeness but the negativity is kinda wearing me out. It's like farting in the wind. I'd rather just keep it to myself. Seriously? You guys are complaining he doesn't have side mirrors? What's next? You want matching mini factory floor mats? If his animation never had mirrors and if Nissan is fine without mirrors, I'm fine without mirrors.
     
  18. Raiyuki

    Raiyuki Low Class Seeker

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    I don't care about mirrors or lack there of provided they stop doing the separate mirrors on sprues thing. On Tracks one keeps falling off and it's annoying. On Bumble, due to my lack of knowledge of real world cars, I didn't know that he was only supposed to have one mirror so I though there was a misassembly and pushed the hinge a little to fit the other one without noticing they're identical.
    If they do mirrors I wouldn't mind them in rubber or something, as long as they're not separate pieces I have to worry about.
     
  19. DinoSnarl

    DinoSnarl Obese chocoholic

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    Fair dinkum I can't believe how thin-skinned and delicate some people are.

    "Oh woe is me, I'm getting so depressed and bummed out because I can't relate to some anonymous forum user who doesn't like the same plastic toy robot that I do..."

    Sheesh - who would have that people on a discussion forum would sometimes have different opinions?
     
  20. 2003 Megatron

    2003 Megatron Banned

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    Ironhide for is good. Could have been better. Most of them stupid hip panels.
     
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