Mass-shifting and miniaturization

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by QLRformer, Jul 20, 2019.

  1. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

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    I feel like they did that a couple times in the G1 comic (Soundwave in a locker at an oil rig comes to mind).

    I know liberties are taken with mass shifting already but for some reason I'm just not onboard with large size changes in the movies. I'm fine with it in other mediums for some reason, but I can't quite put my finger on why it irks me in theory in live-action. Maybe it messes with my ability to suspend disbelief at the robits being grounded in the real world? I don't know.
     
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  2. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Droppin' Space Colonies

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    Just look at Voyager AoE Galvatron - that design simply wasn't meant to Transform, every last bit of that vehicle is stuffed on his back in an attempt to hide it away. Zero integration with the robot mode.
     
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  3. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Droppin' Space Colonies

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    We're talking about a dude who in robot mode can contain the power of a black hole in his arm cannon (which is not the actual gun barrel, his arm cannon is in fact the gun's scope). You know, a thing so incomprehensibly powerful that light itself can not escape its gravitational pull. And he can just hook himself up to it and fire away.

    How much more powerful do you think the gun would have to be to overshadow the concentrated energy of a black hole?

    Dude, what happens if Megatron transforms and nobody is around to hold it? He'll just fall to the ground (or maybe float aimlesly in space if it's a zero-G environment). I'm not quite understanding what's so hard to grasp about that.
     
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  4. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

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    It would have to have the power of TWO black holes!


    He just floats there on his own anti-grav abilities, points himself, and shoots whatever needs to be shot squarely in the location that needs shooting. As he did regularly. The Decepticons can usually fly in robot mode, why not float a bit in alt-mode?

    I don't like the idea of gun-Megatron that much anymore, however. I prefer the brute power and menace of a tank (especially on screen, where you get a sense of scale/weight/sound, etc. If there was a desire for his alt-mode to signify his singular, laser-focused desire for raw power and destructive potential, however, I'd be satisfied with him turning into some form of artillery emplacement or self-propelled heavy cannon or something else that's just "gun, but MASSIVE!", compared to a hand cannon.


    Explicitly stated his gun can draw on black holes in his original tech spec (which, yes, I know, weren't exactly restrained in terms of the abilities they ascribed the various transformers, nor were they especially well-thought out mathematically). Without getting into the math of things (stellar mechanics is not my forte), think of the energy in the heart of a star, where the force of gravity induces hydrogen fusion. That available mass, and force, would be magnitudes greater, and concentrated on a single point in space in a black hole. Assuming you could tap into it (the mass/gravity and distortion it cause seem to be able to hold onto light photons, which have nearly no mass, IIRC?), that would be a great deal of energy to direct at something.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2019
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  5. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Droppin' Space Colonies

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    ...but he did it in the show, so its canon. You're the one saying the gun mode needs to be more powerful than robot mode, when his robot mode already can harvest something more powerful than light itself as taught in grade school.

    But it isnt Megatron. Megatron is about power and it always has been odd that his alt mode places him at the mercy of another - usually STARSCREAM.

    Happen a certain way? What, that certain way being that Megatron turns into a weapon which has no mobility, no ability to aim itself, and reduces him to potentially a size which Starscream could conceivably snap him in half? Or perhaps is dropped and can't easily be retrieved for whatever reason?

    Not to mention with the way toy gun laws work, it's simply easier to just not make Megatron a pistol instead of a tank, which is really just a bigger gun that's able to go anywhere. The reason Hitler loved tanks was because of his impression of the Mk.1 tank in WWI. This big metal gun laden monster thing that could not be stopped by any terrain.

    If that doesnt describe a proper Megatron, I don't know what would.
     
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  6. Digimaniac

    Digimaniac Member

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    We aren’t talking about what a writer would do, the point is in a senecio where he’s alone he wouldn’t be able to take a different form, be it for combat or to flee
     
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  7. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

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    I don't even know what you're trying to say here but I don't think I like it.
     
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  8. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Droppin' Space Colonies

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    1. That is called a Targetmaster.

    2. Megatron would never be the one who would basically allow somebody else to control him if he was given free agency in the matter (I.E. not the 'I accept your terms, I ACCEPT!' bit from the film, given the alternative was death). The fact he had to allow other robots to fire him in alt. mode is probably one of the greatest ironies of G1 Transformers in that sense, given the character has far evolved past his origins as a repurposed Microchange toy.
     
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  9. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Droppin' Space Colonies

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    You clearly never read the comics then, because Targetmasters (and Powermasters and Headmasters) were certainly much more free willed then you seem to think they were in the American media. The whole point of *masters in the comics was the Nebulons trying to control the Cybertronians from waging war on their planet...except surprise some of them turned out to be pretty evil so it kinda backfired.
     
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  10. JohnStartop

    JohnStartop There can only be one.

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    A lot of people think the Megatron gun is too silly for a film, and this is my terrible failure to convince people otherwise:

    A common and very wrong argument is that his alt mode is useless because everyone else already has guns, but those guns aren't nearly as powerful. They could have a human in the next film laugh at the fact that he turns into a pistol, then the Autobots actually warn them that in that form, his shots are deadly. If you think about other Transformers' alt modes, some of their Energon goes to operating the vehicle and other Energon goes to their weapons. With Megatron, a lot of his Energon is condensed to a small point, making it deadly when it's fired.

    The films should show just how deadly Megatron is as a gun. It should kill an Autobot on screen in a single shot. Obviously, he also becomes vulnerable in that mode, but that can be used for the plot too. They have to strategize so that he's never given an opportunity to transform into the gun. That could make for some tense action.

    In that exact quote you took of me, I said:

    And to this, I said:

    I don't understand what's so hard to believe. Everyone against size-changing says the exact same arguments, and even after I gave counterarguments, you just repeated the same arguments back to me that I already addressed. All I did was give one way they could plausibly do it. There are other ways the films could do it. Why are people so closed-minded about size-changing? It's got such imaginative potential.

    Hence the vulnerability I was talking about: he needs to be held by others to fire. No shit? That's the tradeoff of an incredibly powerful gun operating on the Energon of an entire Transformer's body. What I said was that the tension of a battle including the gun would be that they need to take advantage of this vulnerability and never giving him the chance to fire.

    Your argument was that guns can't float and people actually bought it. Jesus. That's how much people don't want this to happen.

    Show me your equations and measurements for your black hole hypothesis. It's already silly enough to talk like that about Transformers, but you wanna be technical, so go for it.

    Right, because an intelligent writer would have Megatron transform into a pistol when nobody's around. There's no workaround there...

    Do you realize every argument you're making insists that it has to happen a certain way? Just because you disagree with the concept, you're coming up with scenarios that would definitely go wrong, but a creative writer could work their way around all of them.

    I just want anyone reading your explanation to know that you just repeated the same thing in technical terms without actual insight like the writing for The Big Bang Theory.

    "Bazinga!"
    [Cue laugh sign]

    *runs for 12 seasons and a spinoff*

    You actually mentioned a workaround to that earlier. What if it propelled itself through air like in the cartoon. Not a floating gun, but something that could be conjured like Thor's hammer, but only if Megatron agrees to pair with the gunman?

    I know it's slightly different in the American cartoon, but Targetmasters usually share a will with the partner, but Megatron has a will of his own regardless of the partner.

    There are many different versions of the Targetmasters, so I don't get why you're so offended that I didn't read the comics. The degree of free will is irrelevant. Targetmasters are partners. Megatron isn't.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2019
  11. MattDallas

    MattDallas Well-Known Member

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    I'd like them to do the mass shifting but limit it only to special individuals with that special power (Megatron, Soundwave and the tapes). And use this as a disguise like in the Marvel comics. I've never been a fan of Megatron being wielded by another Transformer.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2019
  12. primal789

    primal789 Prime

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    Yes although I'm thinking it was just an odd idea that they had fun with(we all know the 80's).In reality it would be really dumb...not only that he is a gun that shrinks but even more if he can do all that you would think he would be able to push his own trigger at least.
     
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  13. BelnadesPistol

    BelnadesPistol Banned

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    Still better than the toys from the Unicron trilogy or the original BW line
     
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  14. AutobotAvalanche

    AutobotAvalanche Number One in Boogieland Moderator

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    As you might say...
     
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  15. BelnadesPistol

    BelnadesPistol Banned

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    Good point
     
  16. Novaburnhilde

    Novaburnhilde Αἰών

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    Sure, I don't see why it couldn't.
     
  17. Bee Camaro

    Bee Camaro Well-Known Member

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    I can't stand the mass shifting myself. I much prefer that the Cybertronians have alt modes that match the size of their robot modes. Mass shifting also makes it harder to create scale-accurate figures.

    Now for Megatrons alt mode... Him being a gun and having to be wielded by someone else is pathetic for the leader of the Decepticons.
    Him being a tank or a jet would be preferred. Or even both in one, like his RotF version.


    Where exactly does Hot Rods wheels go? I've been wondering about this for several G1 designs.
     
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  18. MattDallas

    MattDallas Well-Known Member

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    All this nonsense about Megatron's gun mode being useless: It's meant to be a disguise! And it's a brilliant one. He has his robot mode for fighting.
    It's like saying all the Autobot car modes are useless because they can't fire anything.
    In the beginning, the alt modes were just for disguise. It was a silly cartoon idea that had Megatron being welded as a weapon and somehow that's all people remember.
     
  19. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Droppin' Space Colonies

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    What's the point of turning into a human sized gun on Cybertron, though? The same problem largely is also faced by Shockwave who is straight up a massive combiner sized gun. What purpose do they serve in the natural habitat of the cybertronians instead of having to hide from humans?

    Sure, Soundwave turned into a light post, but people have mocked that for ages and as evidenced by both the War for/Fall of Cybertron and Siege, he has more conventional mobility oriented alt. Modes now for cybertronian form.
     
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  20. BelnadesPistol

    BelnadesPistol Banned

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    "They're in their hinges, don't ask stupid questions"
    Geewunners
     
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