Discussion in 'Transformers 3rd Party Discussion' started by Cheem The Rup, Jul 11, 2017.
or even better less
I might buy 2 at that price
If "white goose" will be the name on the box, well... it's bought just for that.
I mean, I love Quakeblast in itself, but its bio ("his more powerful") it's a gem, I'll never get rid of that box.
I'd have no choice at $80 shipped.
If this is $8 or less I'm in
No, everything 3P is INFRINGING Takara's IPs. But not all infringement is a KO. I'm going to use music as an analogy to explain the differences, based on the product's relationship with 1) the original creator 2) fans of the original creator 3) the 'creativity' of whomever is altering or reproducing the original product.
Let's start with making a completely new, original song out of an old song. Artists like Kanye West, Jay-Z or Kendrick Lamar will take parts of existing songs, loop them --sometimes after completely re-arranging the sounds-- and then write original lyrics. Now legally, using uncleared samples IS infringement, even if you write completely new lyrics and flip the sample so hard that the original song isn't even recognizable anymore... but very few people would accuse you of copying someone else's song. Even if the original creator sues you, most consumers would immediately recognize that yours is actually a new song. That's similar to a completely original 3P interpretation of an existing character. Think Maketoys Cross Dimension Striker Manus and Rioter Despotron... they're obviously "optimus" and "megatron" because they reference the key design cues of the characters (colors, heads/helmets, general chest and leg shapes, iconic weapons) but no Optimus or Megatron has ever existed in that specific form before, in any medium. MakeToys literally made a brand new Optimus and Megatron. All they really "stole" was the general idea.
Then there are cover songs, where you do the actual, original song with the original lyrics, but you're actually playing and singing it from scratch. This to me is analogous to 3P MP or IDW-verse figures, where they are physically embodying an existing design but in a transformative way. The recontextualization of the song adds an element of 'newness' to it and breathes new life and meaning into the original work... Think Jimi Hendrix "All Along the Watchtower", Whitney Houston "I Will Always Love You," or Johnny Cash "Hurt"... it's literally the same song that Bob Dylan, Dolly Parton, and NIN did, respectively, but we see those songs as legitimately being Jimi, Whitney, and Johnny's versions. Nobody ever says Johnny Cash 'stole' the song, they say he OWNED the song. Often the actual creators of the song give props to the new version; Dylan, Parton, and Renzor ALL have said on record that they prefer the remakes to their originals. Likewise, I think Alex Milne is pretty delighted to see his 2-d design fully realized in three dimensions with MMC Kultur. He made a sweet design but he couldn't have actually made it into a TOY like that.
Even a far less successful cover, like The Weeknd "Dirty Diana" (The Weeknd sounds like a K-mart Blue Lite Special version of Michael Jackson... it didn't compare favorably IMO), isn't viewed as THEFT because the 'new' person is still actually performing the song themselves. It's more like "is this actually an improvement? Does this need to exist?" People judge cover songs on the merits of their new rendition, not (generally) the mere fact that they're not original, and that's kind of how 3P MP/IDW toys are judged as well.
A specific subset of 3P offerings are analogous to 'bootleg recordings' of live shows or albums of unreleased material: it doesn't belong to the folks putting it out, it's an original work by the original artist, but there's also no commercially available 'official' product of it, so actual fans of the artists have demand for and appreciate this kind of thing even if the artists themselves don't. (think Grateful Dead/Phish concert tapes, or the numerous unofficial post-mortem 2Pac albums). I would actually view Fantoys Phoenix in this light... Hasbro drew Skyfire in its cartoons but has NEVER actually released a toy that embodied that design. If you're a Has/Tak purist and you want a rendition of G1 Skyfire in both modes, you're SOL. Impossible Toys Quintessons and other "official" characters that never had official toys fall under this specific subset as well. The forthcoming KO of BWII Unicron is an even better example, since it's going to be a commercially released version of a product that was _actually created in 3D by Takara_... but never brought to market.
"Improved" KOs are kind of like DJ club mixes of songs. It takes the source material and seeks to optimize it without substantially changing its relationship to the audience in the way a cover song or a sample flip does. You want people to receive it as the original thing, but just react better to it. So to me this would be like Wei Jiang MPP10 or the upscaled Evasion Prime. This is a continuum too; the upscaled Evasion Prime uses the fundamental engineering of the smaller toy but has many significant, systematic mold and engineering differences to the extent that it can be seen as a "cover song", whereas MPP-10's are minimal by comparison (improved paint job, extended lower legs). A fan of the original music may find themselves appreciating this 'optimized' version on its own merits because it fills a specific need better... say, for example, you're dancing to some funk songs and the DJ extends the breakbeat. (this is literally how hiphop got started). Likewise, you may get the improved KO even if you already have the original because it's the "best version available on the market." (Even though I have an official MP-10, I also have regular sized AND upsized KOs as well because BOTH of the KOs look significantly better than the original)
Actual KOs are like bootleg records. It's "the" product. It's likely to be lower manufacturing quality but may be equal. There's no addition of creative energy on any level, no reimagination of the relationship between the product and the audience, and minimal effort. A fan of an artist or group doesn't appreciate this kind of bootleg UNLESS they literally can't afford or can't find the original product; even then, they'd prefer to be buying the real thing.
Holy crap that's bright.
I realized that the second after I hit reply.
Fuck it, neon text for everyone
Thank you, kind sir. Much obliged.
In any case, this thread rocks! lol
This is making insanely good sense to me
Dude, you're quoting a lot of hearsay/conjecture to someone new to the issue, which will just help perpetuate rumors. So many people missed the fact that a true and exact Quakewave knockoff did exist and that retailers have confirmed Cloud 9 never contacted them to sell Quakeblast. You can't blame FT for C9's absolute lack of marketing, but there are a ton of people willing to assume the worst just because it's FT.
Quote from an earlier post in this thread:
Wonder if this guy will be at tf con
All right guys quit the off topic posts and get back on topic. Again anyone violating this will be banned from the thread. Thanks.
Anyways. Wonder if they will downsize it or keep it the same size. No way this gets os.
Next job is tw constructor. Fixing those QC issues
I don't need this as I have ft10 already I wonder if they will knock off some xbt\kfc stuff and fix some of the QC and colour issue's at the same time.
I will concede that I was misinformed about the retailer situation and I'm sorry for misrepresenting the story. I should have clarified that the claims were "alleged" like I did with the MP36 pictures regardless.
@fpjones3 to be clear, I was wrong about FT threatening to pull their products. I stand corrected.
However, I will still contend that FT's reaction to Quakeblast was poorly handled. Dalianjj made it pretty clear that FT considered QB to be a 'copy' of their design and got incredibly defensive about the issue on the boards. It also seems a bit hypocritical to me that they'd be so against Quakeblast drawing heavily from Quakewave when FT Grinder draws heavily from the transformation of the official MP08 Grimlock.
I'm not saying any of this to shit on or demean FansToys. I think they make incredibly well-made products and conduct themselves well as a business with a few exceptional moments in which they, in my opinion, act inappropriately. I'm just trying to frame the reaction to this KO within the context of the feathers that FT has clearly ruffled in the 3P world.
Also, I'm not trying to say that this possible act of retribution is somehow justified. Honestly, I'll be really bummed if it turns out MT, DX9, or some other big 3P is behind this because that would be a super low blow and infighting is the last thing this very niche market needs.
I agree that they weren't taking the high road in some of their comments toward C9/QB. I get the feeling that there's some sort of deeper personal thing between the staff of the two companies, but I don't really care and we are consumers shouldn't really care. The superior product per each consumers needs should take precedence, the rest of this is drama that doesn't get us better toys. There's a strange fixation with some of us to take sides on issues besides the quality of the toys and customer service. Not like FT or TT or XTB, MMC etc etc etc will reward/punish us for defending/attacking any of them.
Like I said, just trying to frame the reaction. If I came across as trying to morally grandstand FT, my bad.
For the most part I do agree with you and I think it's silly to suggest that any 3P company is somehow more 'moral' or loyal to their fans than others when at the end of the day they're all in competition with each other for the same market (or several smaller and closely related markets for that matter). After all, competitive business is unquestionably the reason that the upcoming XTB Stunticons are forty bucks a pop. It inspires these companies to put their best effort into their products and drives down prices, both of which I'm 100% in favor of.
That said, maybe I'm letting myself get too emotional about it but I'd still prefer for these guys not to sabotage one another behind the scenes. Making a competitive product is one thing, but leaking photos and KOing figures from other companies feels really petty and counterproductive for such a small and niche market.
...I mean, all of that is of course ASSUMING that the rumors of high profile 3Ps being responsible for this KO are true. For all we know it could be an ex-employee(s) from one of those companies or someone else entirely.
Saw a post from Daimchoc saying KFT will also be KOing the KFC Cyclonus.
DaimChoc Reports - ダイムチョック・リポーツ
Edit: Apparently someone said it is not KO of KFC, but their own take.
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