Discussion in 'Transformers News and Rumors' started by SilverOptimus, Mar 23, 2018.
John Cena says a lot of things.
I'm happy to see a good discussion going on instead of bashing each other. Both sides brining in facts and figures supporting their arguments. Both sides listening to the other party. I'm having a great time reading this thread. Keep it up.
Not sure I follow, but why do you think 86 movie is a Starwars copy, I'm fans of both and never correlated the two?
If we start by certain characters then let's see....
You have Hot Rod, who feels like a personification of Luke Skywalker. A guy who doesn't realize his destiny until he receives the Matrix.
You have Springer and Arcee, who are both like Han and Leia. Except they're nowhere near as important to the story as Han and Leia are to theirs.
You have Unicron, the main antagonist who's introduced as a Death Star figure tearing down planets. And the thing they have to blow up.
You have Galvatron who feels like he's Darth Vader under the control from the benevolent master.
Even Optimus feels like he's Obi-Wan's ghost while Kup feels like he's feeling in the old hermit Obi-Wan.
There's one thing for sure... I don't know who's filling in the R2D2 and C-3PO role. Maybe Blurr is? The Dinobots (maybe they were Chewbacca)? Wheelie?
Then in regards to the story....
The Decepticons attack the Autobot space shuttle early on. Hmmm... Pretty similar to how the Empire attacked the Rebels early on in A New Hope.
The Autobot City attack could be paralleled with the attack on Hoth in Empire Strikes Back.
When they arrive on the Quentisson planet, it feels like that scene in Return of the Jedi where they attempted to kill the heroes by throwing them into the Sarlaac Pit.
When they arrive on Junkion, it feels like meeting the Ewoks.
And the obvious one being the assault of Unicron with Rodimus Prime hearing Optimus's words. "Use the Force..." I mean.... "Arise, Rodimus Prime." But it's okay... Maybe this was a surprise twist to make us feel that Ultra Magnus was supposed to be leader.
And it ends with a celebration like the A New Hope...
And certain sound effects that occur sound like they came from Star Wars.
In all fairness though, Star Wars isn't the most original thing either as it was inspired by Akira Kurosawa's Hidden Fortress.
The first live action Transformers film has a rating of higher than 55%.
And the user reviews aren't an important measure at all. You'd have to poll the entire world that saw the films to get a fairly accurate count. Again, when you have groups that intentionally target a particular movie or director and there's no real way of proving it was seen so the vote actually counts, then it doesn't make a bit of difference.
And I'm saying this for other movies too, not just Transformers. Remember, the animated film almost killed the franchise with Optimus dying and whatnot, parents taking their kids out of the theater, starting a letter-writing campaign, etc.
My point is, I still don't care what people think. People seem to adore Guardians of the Galaxy but I found it to be just okay. Different strokes for different folks.
The new management hasn't seemed very willing to pump much money into promoting movies made by the old management so we might not see a lot of promotion for Bumblebee either. It could be almost at the release date before we get anything more substantial than interviews with the cast. I'm honestly starting to wonder if we will even get a teaser trailer during the summer months.
A very good analysis overall, although I give the 1986 movie major props in terms of its context within the G1 cartoon continuity, as it really shook up the universe and character roster.
And I agree with Mnemonic Syntax in that RT scores and critical opinions, which are often very subjective (critics often disagree with each other, let alone fans and general audience members), should not be the criteria by which we base our enjoyment of Transformers movies of all things.
Paradox was planned as going to Netflix farther back than you think. It wasn't "no faith" it was a concept pivot to further test Netflix responses and surprise audiences as streaming platforms and movie content to them is becoming a bigger thing. That was entirely planned that way and wasn't anything about "new paramount leadership." The person that made that call and pushed it as that instead was entirely based on the ARG hype to then surprise launch through Netflix. "New Paramount leadership" had no impact at all on that other than "hey that could work!" So they did it that way.
Annihilation was expected to do roughly the same kind of numbers as Passengers. It wasn't expected to break the box office so there was no need to waste the marketing budget on something that wasn't expected to become a box office sensation. Not because it was bad or anything, but because it wasn't a merchandising kind of movie. It was a classic scifi concept throwback film. A more thinking piece and artful film. Those don't tend to do well at the box office period. They aren't exactly "take your family to go see" kinds of movies. Annihilation was also one of those Netflix test style ones, as the market is looking into more avenues of quicker home enjoyment of theater movies. Same as how a few years ago they were testing PPV releases of theater runs before the movie goes to theaters. So a marketing push wasn't needed as much as it would find its audience still in other ways.
Not exactly sure where you're pulling these falsehoods from.
Cause it sounds like you'd argue with the person that directly made those decisions if they were telling you why they made those decisions.
Sherlock Gnome on the other hand did have some trailers run, but it's also more geared to kids. Fans of Gnomeo and Juliet will go see it if they want to. But doing a late night talk show circuit on that one would be imbecilic to begin with. The target audience is kids, and kids don't watch late night talk shows or the morning talk shows either. It's doing about as much marketing as Gnomeo and Juliet did. And TBH, I don't think anyone expected that to become the hit that it did. But timing that during spring break was a mistake to begin with. It should have been a later summer one for either June or late August. Too many kid distractions right now and other more appealing films. Children's movies like that do better on the home media release generally. It doesn't have that same appeal as say Shrek, or Hotel Transylvania, or Pixar stuff. Personally I'm still baffled by how well Gnomeo and Juliet itself did.
I'll not be surprised if Super Cena pulled one of his ring moves in the film like his Attitude Adjustment/F.U. (Fireman's Carry/Body Drop)
But please, no Five Knuckle-Shuffles
"You Can't Se 'Bee!!!"
Reposting my analysis from a thread a few years ago...
Hot Rod is Luke Skywalker, a callow youth who discovers a power within him to defeat a great evil in the galaxy.
Galvatron is Darth Vader, a hate-filled fear-monger who sold his soul to a great evil who then rebuilt him from the broken remnants of his former self.
Unicron is Emperor Palpatine/the Death Star, an ancient, seemingly all-powerful evil that's destroyed by the power within Hot Rod/Luke Skywalker.
Springer is Han Solo, a cocky rogue who spits out wry one-liners.
Arcee is Princess Leia, the only female in the film. (And note that Arcee's head was modeled after Leia's cinnamon-bun hairdo from New Hope.)
Wreck-Gar is Chewbacca, a dangerous, enigmatic alien who's a fierce warrior for the good guys but speaks a language no one can understand.
Blurr is C-3PO, an alarmist worrywart whose "we're doomed!" attitude usually results in the other heroes tending to ignore him until they need him.
Cyclonus, Scourge and the Sweeps are the Stormtroopers, minions of Galvatron/Vader who don't say much, only occasionally hit what they're aiming for, and no matter how many of them get killed, there always seems to be more of them.
Kup and Ultra Magnus kind of split the Obi-Wan Kenobi role between them: an old, fatherly mentor figure who begins the journey with the young hero (Kup's role) but whose death/removal from leadership is necessary to clear the way for the hero to realize his potential (Ultra Magnus's role).
A bit of a stretch, but you could almost make the case that Wheelie is Yoda, a diminutive, solitary stranger who lives by himself on a weird, predator-filled planet and has a strange way of talking.
And for your "similar scenes," I submit:
The scene in which Hot Rod trains against the drone while Kup entertains the Dinobots is almost a note-for-note retelling of the scene in New Hope where Luke trains against the floating remote while Obi-Wan talks with Han.
I had to register to respond to these posts. This is completely ridiculous, lacking any critical thinking. If you take the broadest sweeping one sentence generalizations you can compare nearly any two pieces of media
Star Wars is just a rip off of Star Trek. They both even have Star in the title!
Han Solo is a rip off of Captain Kirk because they are both ladies men who are captains of space ships.
Obi Wan Kenobi is a rip off of Spock because they are both wise with mystical powers.
The Deathstar is a rip off of the Planet Killer from "The Doomsday Machine" because they are both massive weapons that destroy planets.
Should I go on?
And then you decide to combine characters? Come on. If you think about any of these for more than five seconds beyond the merest of surface details the comparisons completely fail. There are no direct comparisons, the plot structures don't match up.
No it's not. Other that the surface details of two characters with weapons on a space ship they aren't anything alike. Hot Rod is not training, he is sparring. What lessons is he learning? None. Who is teaching him? No one. Who is the "Han Solo" in this scene? Grimlock? Not a chance. And Kup is telling a war story, not trying to teach Hot Rod about some mystical energy field.
These posts are completely ridiculous. Anyone liking them should be embarrassed.
Chill dude.... Star Wars is pretty popular thing to point out for comparison.
So all in all, you're only suggesting to me...
The Transformers: The Movie copied Star Wars which copied Star Trek (more like The Hidden Fortress IMO). So they're passing tropes of one medium to another.
I have nothing to be embarrassed about and stand by my original thoughts.
P.S. I never suggested that it is bad to copy but merely that there are comparisons that I think can be made.
Welcome to the TFW2005 boards by the way.
Yeah, I'm not seeing it either. It never even occurred to me, and I was a huge Star Wars fan long before TFs - I've also accused (jokingly) that nearly every popular thing is a Star Wars ripoff (Harry Potter movies, the Bible, etc.)
Quite frankly, it's making a comparison in the most generic of ways, in a manner that you could compare nearly anything to anything.
No, that's not what I am saying.
This guy knows what's up. That is exactly what my examples were demonstrating.
It seems like at least Arrival numbers is where they would have pegged Annihilation. Arrival having a domestic run of $100 million off of a $47 million budget was a bit of good news for Paramount. Nothing that was going to top the yearly box office chart but something that didn't require a massive budget to turn a profit. I think the Arrival/Annihilation just works better because they have about the same budget and they both had to deal with it could be something that some ticket buyers might not get. Plus Passengers had a ton of marketing compared to the marketing for Arrival.
With the animated movies I kind of wonder if you have to sell the kids on the movie as much as sell the parents on the movie. I don't have kids and I don't have cable but it seems like I can't escape the advertising for something like Coco, the Despicable Me movies, or even the latest Hotel Transylvania movie. I had to dig into reviewers I'd never heard of on You Tube to find a review of Sherlock Gnomes it was flying so far under the radar.
Ron Friedman, is that you?
You know, I don't even think the 1986 movie is similar to Star Wars in every way. Obviously the 1986 film takes place in an already established fictional universe with some already established characters and some brand new ones, as opposed to A New Hope. Obviously the Death Star is a human construction with no intelligence, and Unicron is a super powerful being who can corrupt and reformat lesser beings. I just think it was a neat way of looking at the film, and there definitely are some comparisons to be made.
Frankly, I love the 1986 movie for what it did to G1. It totally turned things on their head, which was a good thing creatively speaking. Quintessons, Junkions, Unicron, Galvatron, Cyclonus, Rodimus. It paved the way for other brand reinventions, like Beast Wars. No longer was Transformers this narrow thing. It was now quite broad.
Non-response, is that you?
...except that's not what happened at all.
The movie was not exactly a success, alienated much of its audience by killing off childhood heroes (most critically of all Optimus), and marked a transition in the series from being in the relative present 1980s to some kind of spacefuture setting where they went planet hopping. This marked the beginning of the decline of G1, since after S3 which was relatively unpopular because many of the old characters were no longer around and Rodimus especially was an attempt at a self-doubting leader which didn't resonate with the kids as Optimus had. Even trying to resurrect Optimus at the end of the run didn't improve sales, and during the late 1980s you had all the "gimmick" lines like target/head/powermasters, the sparkbots/cons, duocons, micromasters, actionmasters, etc. all trying to find the magic trick to revive the line.
This was followed by the short lived Generation 2, which amounted to a 12-issue marvel run (which was truncated almost immediately), the infamous neon redecos, and some European exclusives. That failed to revive the line and there was one year in the early 1990s where no new Transformers product was on shelves.
Beast Wars immediately came after that and was handled by a different development team, to say nothing about the radical difference in the cartoon. Which was the reason, I believe, for the change to animal alt. modes because of the cutting-edge CGI at the time looking far better when used with organic and curved shapes as opposed to hard edge and blocky shapes (and you just need to see the brief bits of Starscream's original body when he possesses Waspinator to understand why).
So, the movie didn't really benefit the franchise at the time, unless you mean indirectly by triggering its slow death over the course of the next ten years and across both the end of G1 and the entirety of G2. Brand reinvention was only brought on out of desperation to make the Transformers franchise name profitable again, since it is documented that the only reason the leaders of the two BW factions were named after Megatron and Optimus...is because they were intended to be those original characters in new forms.
The reason why Star Wars was chosen for comparison was due to the fact the original trilogy is already out by the time the 1986 film was released.
Harry Potter wasn't on screen yet and as for... Uh... Religion. I'm not going into it.
Separate names with a comma.