1. Of note - we are in the process of upgrading the site to use HTTPS / SSL. In that time, you may be logged in/out depending on what area of the site you are looking at. If you want to be logged into the forums, please log in via https://www.tfw2005.com/boards/login/. If you do that, you will not be logged in while looking at the front page. We hope to have this fixed within the next 24 hours or so.
    Dismiss Notice

Japanese G1 animes

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by Nelomaxwell, Dec 25, 2018.

  1. FAKER II

    FAKER II Cheap Repaint

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2011
    Posts:
    1,517
    Trophy Points:
    197
    Likes:
    +880
    I’m a little unclear on what constitutes a bad dub. If the script is incoherent or the voice acting is bad then I could understand. But it sounds to me as though “bad” means any deviation whatsoever from the original script. I personally think it’s fine to alter things slightly if there is a cultural thing that doesn’t translate well. I also don’t mind if vulgar language is toned down. I can think of instances where I would prefer changes. I would love for an English dub of Masterforce to make Ginrai’s transtector into the actual Optimus Prime. I think some creative writing could make it work.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Indie Musician, Scumbag Jesus

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2013
    Posts:
    1,985
    Trophy Points:
    207
    Location:
    Schenectady, NY
    Likes:
    +1,640
    You just described the definition of a bad dub. Ginrai's transector can't be Optimus Prime. Wanna throwaway line about "this was his back up" or "we modeled the leader after one of our greatest leaders" fine. But for the transector to BE optimus prime would just be terrible. Because then Optimus Prime would get rebuilt into victory leo and take orders from Star Saber.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. FAKER II

    FAKER II Cheap Repaint

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2011
    Posts:
    1,517
    Trophy Points:
    197
    Likes:
    +880
    I get it. You can’t see how it could work. You just simply lack creativity.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2017
    Posts:
    971
    Trophy Points:
    142
    Likes:
    +415
    In not sure I can agree with all that

    The transectors eventually became “fully” alive right?

    The way I see it then, the human Ginri was a way to return life to the (new) body for Optimus Prime, a bit of a twist from how Marvel handlers what happened to Optimus in its final issues

    As to the change into Victory Leo, i always felt that was a reformatting akin to Bombshell/Thundercracker into Cyclonus/Scourge

    Optimus died ,again, and from his remains s new Autobot was created
     
    • Like Like x 3
  5. Wh33l JcK

    Wh33l JcK Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2014
    Posts:
    4,127
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Likes:
    +1,814
    I bought the Japanese trilogy. I don't mind reading the subtitles, but I would love a dubbed versions. I hate missing action while reading the bottom of the screen.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime The first Decepticon the Fallen Megatronus Prime

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2010
    Posts:
    8,219
    Trophy Points:
    247
    Location:
    The State of insanity.
    Likes:
    +1,885
    The way I see it is that Power Master Optimus Prime was designed to resemble a famous Autobot so the Human just adopted his name. It may have gained sentience but would still be a different Optimus Prime. Similar to Optimus Primal being a different character who resembles and shares the name but is established as a different character.

    As for Ginrai/Victory Leo or Optimus Prime/Leobreaker... maybe he just decides it's no longer appropriate to use that name since he no longer looks like Optimus and people keep mistaking him for the other Optimus so he changes his name.

    And yeah that is a bad dub considering all the changes to try to make the American names fit but considering Hasbro has to reuse names to keep the Trade Marks going there's no way they're going to do it without using their own Trade Marks.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. greboguru

    greboguru Psychedelic Brainchild

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    Posts:
    2,222
    Trophy Points:
    272
    Location:
    California, USA
    Likes:
    +1,502
    PfffffffffBAAAAAhahahaha! Oh my god... Stop stop, please you're killing me, I can't take it.
    Not regurgitating; it's true.
    Oh I'm sorry, do you KNOW ME? Do you know what I've watched and who I've talked to? No, you don't, so stop acting like you know my motivations. Odds are very high I've seen more anime (dubbed and subbed) than you, kid.
    Enjoy living in your self-righteous fantasy world then, I'm sure it's awesome there. And MAN do you have an axe to grind with 4Kids! What's your deal, do you work for their competitors or something? Are you a voice actah?
    Only the first half of that is actually at issue here. I'm not god and you're not shit. (There's no such thing as god, and shit can't type.) But I am right, and you are wrong.
    Good! Glad you're done. And hey, there's nothing holy about my words.
    BAHAHA! Omigod you're cracking me up AGAIN. "Snowflake"?!? Really?!? That's your closing attempt at a burn? Sad. You're just throwing out random terminology -- terminology that's not even applicable in this situation. Talk about desperate...

    Anyway, fun talking with you. Nothing personal against you, SaberPrime. I appreciate your enthusiasm and commitment.

    Hey, wait. Did you once go by "Prime Saber" on Usenet way back in the day?
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  8. greboguru

    greboguru Psychedelic Brainchild

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    Posts:
    2,222
    Trophy Points:
    272
    Location:
    California, USA
    Likes:
    +1,502
    Agreeing with you here, FAKER II. I'd say those are exactly what make a dub bad.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Dolza_Khyron

    Dolza_Khyron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2002
    Posts:
    22,313
    Trophy Points:
    412
    Likes:
    +1,751
    Dubs were bad before 4kids, and they are certainly still bad afterwards. Don't get me wrong, I love dubs, but they are still very much awful dubs out there.

    To me, a "perfect" dub would be a dub that is as close as possible to the original version, without altering the animation itself, or the overall story, or characters. Keeping the names the same, is important. (Changing spelling is fine though.) It would also have to have voice acting that is as close to as possible, sounding like the original actors voices, just in English (or whatever language you want to dub it in. This doesn't just apply to anime. But, everything in general.)

    So a bad dub to me would be the opposite of that. It would be a dub where they didn't try at all, or very hard to keep to the original story, script, writing, and characters. Where they chop the animation itself. Where they hire voice actors based on cost alone. Or name value. A fantastic actor, isn't necessarily a great voice actor. And, a great voice actor, isn't necessarily a great actor. They are not the same. They are similar, but they differ enough, where I can say there are a lot of really good actors, who are shitty voice actors.

    That is a bad dub. Basically, not caring about the actual material. Not trying to preserve it as it was made. As it was intended, but changing it to something it wasn't. Like, you know, Robotech. Without a doubt, Robotech is a terrible, awful dub. Where they changed things to make their own show. Rather than trying to stick with things as they were intended. With that said, I still love Robotech as it is.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  10. MetalkingRazor

    MetalkingRazor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2019
    Posts:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    32
    Likes:
    +60
    When it comes to animes, I usually watch the dub more so, but I am not against watching the subs. Especially if I watch the sub and find out that there is something better in the subbed version than the English version.

    I don’t agree with the idea that all the dubs are bad and even if I changed my mind and said that I did, someone can enjoy a dub even if they acknowledge that it’s bad. But there’s some subjectivity because not everyone enjoys the same things. Case in point, I watched and finished through the Ghost Stories dub recently. I know the dub is hilariously awful, but I still enjoyed the show and some of the jokes were hilarious. But that’s my opinion. I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s someone that didn’t like it.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. Dolza_Khyron

    Dolza_Khyron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2002
    Posts:
    22,313
    Trophy Points:
    412
    Likes:
    +1,751
    Well, obviously, not all dubs are bad. But, most dubs aren't that great. (If we are counting anime not just from recent years, but ALL anime.) Some can do quite well with changing the material, like Ghost Stories did. And, having watched the subtitled version too, I would say the dub is WAY more entertaining than the Japanese version. But, I would still call it a bad dub. The reason for that, is because it does change the entire script. It does change the entire premise of the show, from a ghost hunting series, to a comedy. Again, just because it is a bad dub, doesn't mean we can not enjoy it.

    A good dub, or translation of any kind, tries very hard to be as close to the original material as possible. Movies and TV shows (Including anime) all have to do this in a way that is also entertaining. Sometimes the a direct translation isn't very interesting.

    But, that doesn't mean it has to be an exact translation, or an exact dub. It still needs to be entertaining after all. Sometimes the Japanese version isn't very interesting, like Ghost Stories. And then there are things that a dub could probably actually improve upon in some areas. Like anime based on western cultures. Like I was watching one about France, and someone was teaching the main character how to read. But, they were teaching them how to read in a way that was confusing at best.

    The character was saying the word in Japanese, then spelling it in English, while reading French words. A dub could fix that confusion. At least a little. Because right not, it makes it look like that character was learning how to read/spell everything wrong.

    So, not all changes from the original are bad. But, for the most part, the original should be preserved. The animation should not be altered in any way. (Which is a great thing that Ghost Stories did. Changed the story to a comedy, but didn't edit the animation, nor did they change any of the names.) Names should not be changed. This includes Japanese TF names. He isn't Optimus Prime, he is Convoy in this version. Or whatever series you are watching. Star Saber should not be renamed Optimus Prime, just because he is the leader. As an example.

    It doesn't need to be a perfect translation to be good, but it also needs to not alter anything from the original, as well. (With some exceptions, like what I have mentioned above. Like if it improves the entertainment value, or improves, or benefits the story in any way.)

    Changing a character's name from God Ginrai, to Optimus Prime, doesn't benefit the story in anyway. It just benefits Hasbro's toy market. There for, it should not be done.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. FAKER II

    FAKER II Cheap Repaint

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2011
    Posts:
    1,517
    Trophy Points:
    197
    Likes:
    +880
    I don't get this type of thinking. I can understand keeping the names of Japanese exclusive characters instead of making up new names for them. But how can you argue that Optimus Prime from Sunbow is a different character than Convoy from Toei's Headmasters?

    It benefits the story by removing the 2 biggest pink elephants in the room that exist in any Transformers cartoon: 1 - Why does Ginrai look just like Optimus Prime/Convoy for no reason? 2 - Why does nobody notice he looks like Optimus Prime/Convoy?

    In a perfect world, one of 2 things would have happened: 1 - Masterforce would have been written so that Ginrai's transtector was Optimus Prime/Convoy. 2 - They would have changed the colors to further seperate him from Optimus Prime/Convoy. In Transformers, different color equals different character. (Starscream, Thundercracker, Skywarp)
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  13. Dolza_Khyron

    Dolza_Khyron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2002
    Posts:
    22,313
    Trophy Points:
    412
    Likes:
    +1,751
    I really don't know enough about the animes to actually know what you are talking about here. lol Sorry.

    So, I will take your word for it, that it will improve the overall narrative.

    With everything else mentioned, I am unsure if it can be done without changing the animation itself. If it can be done, and it must be done, I'd be okay with it. But, only if it is able to be done without, ONLY without changing the animation itself. The animation itself needs to be preserved. But, only if it would benefit the narrative.

    But, I think for the most part the Japanese names should be used. Because this is the Japanese version of these characters. And these are the names they chose for them. So, it is what they should use.
     
  14. greboguru

    greboguru Psychedelic Brainchild

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    Posts:
    2,222
    Trophy Points:
    272
    Location:
    California, USA
    Likes:
    +1,502
    Well at least this has been retconned in as canon. It is a shame it's not reflected in the show, though.
     
  15. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Posts:
    25,564
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    372
    Likes:
    +3,330
    Unless you want to count it as part of a bad script, I'd also say a bad dub is also one that misses the intent of the original, or that doesn't understand the content of what it's localizing.

    There's definitely exceptions where the dub/translation goes out if it's way to take a different direction than the source material (I'm looking at you, samurai pizza cats, you wonderful monstrosity), but if a dub doesn't understand the work it's adapting, you can end up with a dub that is decently performed, and competently written, but which has missed the intention (and the impact) of the original work. There's also a lot of cultural stuff that might not 'translate' from one language to another, and that can ruin stuff for the audience if it's actually important to the work.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  16. Dolza_Khyron

    Dolza_Khyron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2002
    Posts:
    22,313
    Trophy Points:
    412
    Likes:
    +1,751
    Yes, I agree here. It is very important to keep the intent of the original. Which is one of the reasons why I'm very strong on the idea of names not being changed. And, like you said, there very much are exceptions.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. MetalkingRazor

    MetalkingRazor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2019
    Posts:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    32
    Likes:
    +60
    @Dolza_Khyron , I agree with your response to me earlier when it comes to dubs and whether to change Ginrai’s name. I was just disagreeing with the opinion greboguru said about all the dubs are bad. Of course not all dubs are bad, but not all of them are good. Just saying that even IF I did agree with him that all dubs are bad, it wouldn’t always still change people’s enjoyment of the dub. Wasn’t sure if I made it clear or not.

    From what I read and saw of clips comparing both versions, the story for Ghost Stories was mostly kept the same. The actors were allowed to go nuts on what to say in the dub. Which I do appreciate.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Dolza_Khyron

    Dolza_Khyron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2002
    Posts:
    22,313
    Trophy Points:
    412
    Likes:
    +1,751
    Oh yea, it is lying to say all dubs are bad. Most dubs are not good. Just like most anime, is not good. Just like most of everything isn't "good". Things don't get called masterpieces, if they were all masterpieces. Otherwise that title would be meaningless.

    Changing things here and there is okay. Including names, if necessary. But, it would be a better dub to keep those names the same. Not entirely opposed to changing the names. I just think something like Masterforce would be better off leaving the names the same. If they changed the name of God Ginrai to Optimus Prime, I would be okay with that. It would be up to the rest of the dub to keep it from being a bad dub. If that was the case.

    As for Ghost Stories, that is an example of making a show better than it was intended to do. Which I too appreciate. But, I appreciate it even more, when ADV also put the original Japanese audio + subtitles on it, for those who wish for it to be there. They didn't pull a Sailor Moon, and chop things up, thus making it necessary to sell separate versions of that show on two separate collections when it went to DVD.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
    • Like Like x 2
  19. Markdelg

    Markdelg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2011
    Posts:
    1,773
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    197
    Likes:
    +790
    The reason why Ginrai looks like Optimus Prime, and nobody notices that he looks like Optimus Prime, is because Masterforce was originally envisioned as a reboot. So there was no Optimus Prime for Ginrai to resemble, or for others to notice.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Dolza_Khyron

    Dolza_Khyron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2002
    Posts:
    22,313
    Trophy Points:
    412
    Likes:
    +1,751
    The reason why he looks like Optimus/convoy, really doesn't matter. He looks the way he does, because. Don't forget this is the planet of all those seeker repaints. Perhaps he looks like Optimus Prime, but Optimus Prime looks like a 1000 different robots, all the same color and everything?

    But it really doesn't matter. Because Optimus Prime was not the name given to the character. God Ginrai was.
     
    • Like Like x 1