How is that any different? Invisibility is an outcome, not a method. There are different ways to accomplish that, but the point is, if you're invisible... you're invisible. If two people both became actually invisible through different methods, one magical and one technological, would you say that one wasn't "really" invisible because their method of achieving that effect wasn't "legitimate"?

Ah, the glorious sound of someone who just doesn't get it. It never gets old.

 

Yep

 

Exactly

 

Is magic also considered telekinesis or moving something without touching it?

 

Not typically, but it's another example of something that's functionally indistinguishable from telekinesis when you see it in action. Which was the whole point of the previous poster... having molecular control, gravity powers, electromagnetic powers (in the right environment), 'earthbending' (in the right environment), technopathy (in the right environment), full-on telekinesis, levitation powers, invisible force field powers, quantum power, chaos magic... ultimately you're still "moving shit around with nothing but your thoughts" and from the outside looking in, it all appears the same.

Like, Sue Richards can functionally levitate objects by creating force fields beneath them and moving them around that way... so in theory, she could summon an easy chair, sit in it, and make it move through the air. Aang from Avatar could summon a bigass boulder, stand on it, and make it move through the air. Static Shock can summon a manhole cover, stand on it, and make that move through the air. And of course, Jean Grey could summon, let's say a square of linoleum (I'm feeling b-boyish right now), stand on it, and make it move through the air as well. How would you be able to tell who was using "real" telepathy?

Now, if we have some kind of equipment set up to detect, like, gravity waves or magnetism or whatever, that EXTRA information could help us clarify what specific kind of power we're looking at... or, if we can see that the individual can move certain categories of objects and not others... but just by looking at the power in action by itself, we'd have no way of telling. (and for several of those powers, like gravity, molecular control, magic, and telekenisis, there is no functional way to tell.)

 

To be fair, in context, there's a possible "functional way to tell" if you're a Transformer even if they're rarely discussed. In the Marvel comics, for example, Streetwise's profile indicates that standard TFs have the following senses: optic, audio, olfactory, tactile, short-range radio-wave transmission, electrical sensitivity, and magnetic sensitivity. As a result, "telekinesis", typically a psychokinetic power, would theoretically not trigger observations of electromagnetic power for a Transformer. Many other Transformers have an even greater passive sensor suite which would likely rule out many other things.

Finally, you could possibly assume that certain Transformers might be somewhat sensitive to other forces. For example, Megatron can allegedly link up to a black hole which suggests some gravetic sensitivity. Various space-based Transformers likely also have gravetic sensors to help them navigate and/or maneuver in both atmospheric and space conditions.

As a result, you can theorize that for a Transformer, "real telekinesis" or "real invisibility" either has to be based in a technique/technology that's so subtle or shielded that it doesn't trigger any of their wide suite of senses, or is in fact something more esoteric, like psychokinetic powers or magic (which in some systems isn't "moving stuff with your mind" so much as "entering into a deal with spirits/ambient interplanal energy/ demons/whatevers to get them to do stuff for you").

 

All good points. I was thinking about things mainly from our perspective of seeing those things, but you're right, TFs have extra senses that would allow them to tell the difference between electromagnetically-based manipulation and others. And that also holds true for what you were saying about TFs with gravimetric sensory suites, or specific reasons to be able to 'feel' certain kinds of things... ONLY THOSE TFs would be able to tell though, so really anything aside from electromagnetic-based means of achieving functional telekinesis would be inscrutable to the average TF. So my overall point still stands... gravity powers, magic, molecular manipulation, psychokenisis, technopathy, levitation, invisible force fields, etc. would all be functionally indistinguishable unless the observer had some kind of specific means of distinguishing between them... which hinges on the observer even having a REASON to do so in the first place.

And that loops us back around to "We don't know exactly how Starscream and The Fallen were doing all that seemingly telekinetic shit." It could have been any number of causes leading to similar effects. Hell, even the idea of 'magic' being distinct from 'technology' is itself an attenuated position... magic is basically what we call 'technology so advanced it's beyond the understanding of the witness'.

 

If “ask vector prime” was still up.

 

I dunno if I agree with you 100%, but I think we functionally agree which is pretty much good enough for the purposes of the discussion.

Another thing worth considering is this:

Even assuming every Transformer KNEW 100% the source of Starscream and/or the Fallen's ability to move shit around remotely, would it matter? As a practical matter, unless you have the proper tools or equipment on hand to countermand whatever they're doing, it's essentially a moot point. Doesn't matter if it's psychokinetic energy or a transparent pandimensional space maggot shoving things around - unless the protagonists have the tools to stop it, it may as well be telekinesis.

 

Starscream has telekinesis?

 

Chill

 

You chill

 

Thank you very much

It would likely be useless as I’m sure the answer would be pretty vague

Well it seems to matter the the member that started this topic.....

 

Windcharger's magnetism powers are a functional form of telekinesis (see Magneto vs. Phoenix fight) but as someone else pointed out, all TFs have a 'electromagnetic sensitivity' sense so they'd e able to tell it was magnetism and NOT real telekinesis. The only TK TFs we've seen are either gods or regular TFs using the gods' technologies.

 

So many transformers with special powers.

The gods are? Beside the fallen and unicron.

I wonder is ask vector prime still up?

 

The original Ark and Nemesis crew were basically the Justice League and Legion of Doom of Cybertron. There WERE a bunch of TFs that had flat-out superpowers (impenetrable forcefields, magneto's powers, turning invisible, teleportation, controlling other people, super strength, etc.)

 

Yes. When I first read the tech specs I thought of it as he corrupts the other robots sensors so they cannot detect him. I also thought it would only work for other robots - not humans.

 

Well then you have to consider by what manner does he corrupts those sensors

I could see it being very possible to “Corrupt” the senses of human beings

Sounds like many of the students at Xavier’s school for gifted students LOL

 

Human sensory apparatuses are still based on detection of electromagnetic waves and our nervous systems operate through bio-electrical currents. Our blood is based on (and smells like) iron. In many ways we are carbon-based, biological self-replicating micromachine colonies. The principles that allow a TF to corrupt the senses of other TFs are very likely to work against humans if they operate on the sensory input as opposed to the decoding of that input, which happens in the brain (it could still work even that way, but it's almost certain to work the first way)

 

Which transformers?