if you copy a transformer's mind, doesn't that mean that copy isn't the real transformer?

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by Iruini, Oct 27, 2019.

  1. Iruini

    Iruini Some shitposter

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2019
    Posts:
    2,510
    Trophy Points:
    202
    Likes:
    +6,470
    In the marvel comics the 85 cars: skids, smokescreen, tracks, grapple and hoist, had their minds copied so optimus could have backup if he needed it. In g1 the combaticons were stripped down to their personality components and were put in new bodies. But in both cases...doesn't this mean these groups of transformers are clones/not the real versions of these characters? I mean in both sparks weren't a thing yet. But isn't a personality competent a separate thing from a brain? Is there a separate group of 85 guys running around/or being dead while the copies exist in the marvel comic? does this matter and I'm just overthinking things. you decide I guess
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. imfallenangel

    imfallenangel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Posts:
    2,573
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    Likes:
    +9,473
    The word "copie" should answer your question.

    This is part of the stuff that I tend to set aside as they just don't work.

    Either they are just programmed personalities or they are unique cores, they can't be both.

    Personally, I go with unduplicable cores otherwise what would stop them from making a thousand duplicates of the best "warriors" or such... I believe that their shapes are defined by their cores.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  3. Macross7

    Macross7 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Posts:
    11,911
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    312
    Likes:
    +5,173
    For the 85 cars, they are not the originals since their minds were copied.

    The combaticons are the same people since their minds were removed from their old bodies and put into new ones.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2017
    Posts:
    4,863
    Trophy Points:
    217
    Likes:
    +3,185

    I could see your thinking here but you seem to be assuming that the cases are similar....but they aren’t

    1)As you pointed out, in the G1 comics some of the 85 character line had their minds copied 4million years ago Incase’s prime needed them as some point

    1-A)Also in the comics the same was done to Optimus himself, when he Allowed himself to be killed a human used a floppy disk to back up Optimus prime’s program and it was the later Put into a new body

    In the G1 cartoon, the combaticons brans/ personality components were removed from their original bodies then later placed in new bodies

    These cases are not really the same because there was no “Duplicating” of Personality files in the case of the combaticons

    Now it seems that what was done in the Marvel comics was basically akin to copying Files/programs on your computer and moving them to another location so that you now have two versions of the same file


    I am no computer expert, No I really don’t know if there is any form of a difference between the original file on your computer and the one you copied as a second file

    In the case of Optimus prime, his original body was destroyed and the copy the file was implanted into a new body so at least in his case they would still only be one of him

    But my question was always what happened to the original characters that donated their copies and would become some of the 85 characters

    When they copied their minds were there original body is destroyed or did they continue living their lives on Cybertron for the 4 million years that the copies were in storage on the ark
     
  5. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Blue=Sarcasm; Purple=Snarkcasm

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2013
    Posts:
    3,186
    Trophy Points:
    232
    Location:
    Skiddy Town, N.Y.
    Likes:
    +4,318
    They always wrote Transformers in a way that implied 'sparks' before BW came up with the name.

    'Personality components', 'brain modules', 'laser cores', 'latent personality engrams' the fact that a sacred implement was needed to program 'new personalities' in both the comic and cartoon, Optimus Prime's being 'backed up' on a floppy disc, the 85 cars 'in storage', etc all point to Transformers having a sort of 'digital soul' or 'lifeforce' or else what stops them from copying the same personality into a unified, obedient army?

    Marvel G1 called the Matrix a 'Genetic Creation Matrix' solidifying that Transformers were truly LIVING beings that WE believe resemble automatons.

    So 'sparks' just brought it all under one umbrella, so effectively it is THE standard in every subsequent timeline.

    I find the topic of the 85 cars to be uncertain. The story leaves open the possibility for 'originals' on Cybertron but in every other instance of these things happening it doesn't seem like it should be that easy.

    So I lean towards the 'one and only Hoist in cold storage' answer.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  6. imfallenangel

    imfallenangel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Posts:
    2,573
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    Likes:
    +9,473
    Yup.. there's degradation. Every time you copy a file, you loose something (unless you have 100% perfect equipment, which is near impossible and more theoretical than reality).

    When you copy a file, you might not notice, but it's actually a two-step procedure. 1) the file is copied over, 2) a verification occurs before it "releases" the file as being copied. But the reality is that it's never an actual 100% perfect copy.

    Copy a file again and again, in time the random bits that gets lost will add up and you end up with a file that will corrupt. This can take a LOT of copying, but it's will eventually happen.

    When you open a file in a program and save it as new, you are creating a new version, so it'll be more stable, but it you overwrite one, you can end up with the similar type of corruption.

    Generation loss - Wikipedia

    And when it's a compressed item such as a picture, it's even worse.

    So taking all this in consideration, we are talking about a "mind", which is a very complex thing. The memories, the though pasterns, etc. which would take a huge amount of memory to backup such a thing, and NOT a freaking 1.44MB diskette like they did in the comic, that was just terrible, and being a comic, they could have used a fictional storage unit.

    One human brain, as reference/example, is considered to be able to hold anywhere from 1 to almost 3 PetaBytes, which is large enough to hold the entire internet, or at least a huge chunk of it.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-the-memory-capacity/
    How Many Megabytes of Data Can the Human Brain Hold?

    All you need is a slight corruption and like a bunch of dominoes, the whole thing can collapse.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Macross7

    Macross7 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Posts:
    11,911
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    312
    Likes:
    +5,173
    To be fair this was 1986 & most people did not really understand computers the way modern people do. They were not widespread & most people's knowledge of computers came from movies/tv. Probably the same with comic writers/artists. Go watch some 80's movies and shows and try not to laugh at what the computers could do in them.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Applejacktimus

    Applejacktimus Likes Alpha Bravo

    Joined:
    May 28, 2012
    Posts:
    5,784
    Trophy Points:
    247
    Likes:
    +14,227
    I have never liked the idea of Transformers being able to back up their minds to escape death in the first place. Interesting idea to build an original story around, but makes Transformers too immortal for my preference.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Windsweeper II

    Windsweeper II Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2015
    Posts:
    18,306
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    302
    Likes:
    +18,853
    I think in both cases they are the same people only the different gradation mentioned above would be akin to losing some brain cells due to heavy drinking or the like.
    But they would still be the same TF's.
     
  10. NeilJam

    NeilJam Resident Audiophile

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2005
    Posts:
    2,447
    News Credits:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    312
    Likes:
    +1,080

    A TF doing this could make for an interesting story though. Show how the degradation caused by the copying process effects their mental state.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  11. halo4361

    halo4361 Float like a butterfly, sting like a manta ray

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2014
    Posts:
    637
    Trophy Points:
    172
    Location:
    Big Money Salvia City
    Likes:
    +869
    I figure that they're kinda like save files in a game. Either that, or it's sorta like a copy of the information stored in the transformer's mind, not the mind itself. If they can revive the transformer, they just upload the information and everything's hunky dory. I'm pretty sure there's no evidence whatsoever for either of those theories, but I figure it's worth at least mentioning.
     
  12. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2017
    Posts:
    4,863
    Trophy Points:
    217
    Likes:
    +3,185
    OK thank you very much I always assumed as much but wasn’t sure

    But let me propose to you a line of thinking, everything you post it may be 100% correct based on our current level of technology

    But isn’t it conceivable that one day, and who knows it might be 1 million years from now, but again is it a conceivable that one day we would be able to copy such a file in a way that is 100% as “perfect” as the original one was

    Not that I’m suggesting the original was perfect but that there could be a possibility one day may be able to make a 100% perfect copy of the original.....With absolutely no degradation?

    And if that is or is not possible for us isn’t it conceivable that it could be possible for a race whose entire existence is dependent on computer technology?Wouldn’t it be logical to assume that’s such a race would be far more capable of creating perfect copies than we ever could?
     
  13. Bountyhunter3232

    Bountyhunter3232 King Of Bounty Hunters

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2018
    Posts:
    472
    Trophy Points:
    132
    Location:
    Cheese land
    Likes:
    +1,379
    I'll put this in logic from the 6th day...if you intend on watching it don't click the spoiler as this spoils the end

    you've been warned SPOILERS INBOUND!
    So when the main bad guy was cloned as he was about to die both of him was alive...he talked to himself...so in other words it isn't the same guy but he acts the same and knows all the same stuff...it's mind numbing but you get my point
     
  14. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Blue=Sarcasm; Purple=Snarkcasm

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2013
    Posts:
    3,186
    Trophy Points:
    232
    Location:
    Skiddy Town, N.Y.
    Likes:
    +4,318
    I reckon in a 'sparkless' story, TF minds are complex and unique enough to be one-of-a-kind encrypted data that cannot be easily replicated like Blockchain programs and/or BitCoin.

    Maybe that's what drove the Megatrons crazy: the original Megatron and Straxus clone Megatron both used corrupted 'copies' of Megatron's 'blockchain engrams' that were originally singular and whole before the 'split'. Meanwhile, Straxus' entire intact personality engrams lied dormant in Megatron 2 until it decided to express itself dominantly, like a sapient computer virus.

    Annnd suddenly I like this story solution better than sparks.

    It would also make MORE sense for Optimus Prime's 'survival' on Ethan Zachary's disc and then later in Hi-Q's brain if his personality was a unique blockchain program with 'subconscious self-preservation protocols' and probably inform that the '85 car copies' were more like 'disc transfers and storage' since these hypothetical personality programs wouldn't copy easily or correctly.

    The Dinobots ALSO use that same crystal tech to transfer an injured Snarl's 'engrams' into an ACTUAL STEGOSAURUS for 'storage' in 2004 since his body was riddled with a robot disease of some kind. It's called 'Destiny of the Dinobots' and it's a way the comics explained away Snarl's absence from the movie in 2005/6.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
  15. imfallenangel

    imfallenangel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Posts:
    2,573
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    Likes:
    +9,473
    I was there watching all these such movies, and even then I would cringe every time as I understood technology even when young.

    Nah... there's no way to account of all possibilities that you can make a perfect copy, there's too many variables. Maybe darn close like 99.99999999999999999999%, but Murphy's law will still be effect. Considering the size of such a device would have to be, you're looking at atomic level precision, which it too volatile. Take an atomic clock for example.. the most precise time keeper we have, and the technology is fine, but the radiation of the material uses does degrade in time, and in an unpredictable way that it will end up being "off" at some point.

    It's just physics, everything wears down, so even if 100% perfect during the manufacturing process, but the time you're using it (memory module in this example), at an atomic level, the degradation has already started.
     
  16. Applejacktimus

    Applejacktimus Likes Alpha Bravo

    Joined:
    May 28, 2012
    Posts:
    5,784
    Trophy Points:
    247
    Likes:
    +14,227
    I've already stated how I feel about this:

     
  17. SouthtownKid

    SouthtownKid Headmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2011
    Posts:
    24,995
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    322
    Likes:
    +9,183
    You're not overthinking it. If anything, I'm constantly amazed by how few people do think about it, or how many hand wave away the implications of it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. G1Prowl

    G1Prowl Prick, apparently

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2008
    Posts:
    12,038
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    312
    Likes:
    +8,547
    I figure if it can work for Data in Star Trek: Nemesis, then it can work for TFs. I view the AI as similar, honestly.
     
  19. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2017
    Posts:
    4,863
    Trophy Points:
    217
    Likes:
    +3,185
    Well thanks for clearing that up
    Correct me if I’m wrong since it’s been sometime since I seen that film, but wasn’t data just trying to copy his subroutines into his dumber brother And not his entire personality mind?

    And wouldn’t that be more like giving his brother the tools he needed to function better?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. G1Prowl

    G1Prowl Prick, apparently

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2008
    Posts:
    12,038
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    312
    Likes:
    +8,547
    It was his entire memory, and Geordi questioned the ethics of it a bit.