Ian Failes article on how ILM's transformations have improved over time

Discussion in 'Transformers News and Rumors' started by Moy, Jan 7, 2019.

  1. Haywired

    Haywired Hakunamatatacon

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2014
    Posts:
    8,404
    Trophy Points:
    247
    Likes:
    +10,968
    I do wonder how much of TravisBee still having this transformation scheme is dictated by the animation rig dating back to the old concept... AKA - it was faster/cheaper to change the dressing than to come with a completely new skeleton and to redo a lot of scenes.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Jazz of Staniz

    Jazz of Staniz Currently in one piece

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2018
    Posts:
    563
    Trophy Points:
    172
    Likes:
    +1,183
    Calling me a snob isn't helping your argument at all. Anyway, you're missing my point. I like the G1 designs. I've said multiple times. You're suggesting that I don't want designs to have G1 influence, and that in itself is not true. I believe every character should give design reference to their most popular or best look, and that means some will look more G1 than others, who should take other design liberties. While Wheeljack should definitely look more G1, Ironhide should only reference it slightly and take more cues from Bayverse. Each character should have its own thing going for it, not all of them being old or all of them being radically new. The problem is that it either seems to be all new or all old (with minor new touches). Saying that the characters have never looked like they did in the BB movie before is just false because they have looked like that many times with very slight differences. As I said before, each new continuity should have its own new designs that reference the past in small ways. That's why I think BB's Cybertron designs are too G1. Not because I dislike G1 or want it to be stopped from being referenced, but because it is solely referenced with no other source material than occasional extra parts. We need less G1 in that this is a franchise that until recently had always had something completely new to offer with every new incarnation, and now it seems that it has turned far too G1, ignoring the ambition that it previously had as well as all of its history other than G1. But apparently wanting more variation in source material than just G1 is being a snob.
     
  3. Dragga

    Dragga Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2016
    Posts:
    184
    Trophy Points:
    122
    Likes:
    +443
    A bias against designs that stand out like a sore thumb, maybe. Faithful to G1 or not, the Cybertron designs are simply too cartoony in my eyes to look right treated as live-action. In the comparison you give, Bee explicitly shows a lot more of a layering effect to the alt mode parts to create a more complex "working" design while still being streamlined from the previous film's aesthetic via more use of solid armor panels from the alt mode. Soundwave there is extremely cartoony and blocky, and clashes even when compared to the new Seeker designer as I also mentioned as being a better example of following the design cues of the movieverse while capturing more of the G1 look. I also mentioned that Bee's roundness tends to look a little off but it's minor in comparison to the man of blocks, and the faces on the Cybertron designs are honestly creepy due to more of that trying to stick so close to a cartoon design.

    To use a comparison I've brought up before in these threads, it hits a similar Roger Rabbit effect for me that the upcoming Detective Pikachu does. As a fan of Pokemon, I'm extremely disappointed that they stuck so close to the game art while slapping on realistic textures. If you want a cartoony aesthetic, just make a cartoon. When it's supposed to be in the "real world" you have to balance the designs more towards believe-ability, even in something this fantasy-driven. I've pointed to how the MCU adapted designs that were faithful but still work, especially if you look at the original, classic Iron Man designs that looked more like spandex to the film's use of a much more believable armor even if it still has to rely on "Rule of Cool" to function. The Cybertronian scene and characters stand out because they don't even match the aesthetic of the featured protagonist and antagonists. Even the Seekers show off a better understanding of blending the elements. The Imaginarium Optimus Prime statue shows off more of a design that works in the context of bringing the G1 design to life in a "realistic" manner vs what looks more like it's trying too hard to be a cartoon.

    Also, to note, G1 Bumblebee and G1 Soundwave both look derived from the same artistic direction. They're differences are purely based on their alt modes, as Soundwave's tape deck results in much less kibble being incorporated into his look and making him look slightly cleaner. They're still drawn in a way that matches the overall aesthetic and art style of the very world and rest of the cast.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. MINDVVIPE

    MINDVVIPE "The powers of darkness..."

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2011
    Posts:
    3,025
    Trophy Points:
    262
    Likes:
    +9,870
    I think it's ridiculous how much you assess from such little that is actually shown in the movie. What is too G1 exactly? The war on cybertron? Bee looking like a sci fi yellow car with a fairly generic yet unfamiliar robot mode? Soundwave being kinda blocky and having ravage in his chest? Wheeljack having ears that light up? Seekers bring kinda tetra jet looking? Does that really bother you that much that you say its TOO G1?
    These are the more iconic looks of these characters. This isn't the armada storyline. Hell it's supposed to be the bay storyline and that's probably why the cons later in the movie are fairly complex and jagged. Are they boring coz they are nothing new and look too much like the bay designs?

    The franchise did both new and old things in the different stories being told and in series long degrees, yet your complaining about what is mostly about 4 mins in a movie based on a G1 character that even comes from a continuity that has had the same general style over 5 movies. Where was the creativity in those then?
     
    • Like Like x 3
  5. Rob

    Rob Prowl Fan

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Posts:
    5,743
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    337
    Likes:
    +4,726
    When I hear “too G1” I am starting to hear “too Transformers”
     
    • Like Like x 7
  6. Jazz of Staniz

    Jazz of Staniz Currently in one piece

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2018
    Posts:
    563
    Trophy Points:
    172
    Likes:
    +1,183
    You continue to miss the point of what I'm saying. I'm saying more that the aim of the designs, if we are going to reference the past, it should include more than just G1. You used Soundwave as an example. Believe it or not I’m actually a big fan of his new design. Sure, a couple more panels here and there would be nice but overall it’s really a good design. What I’m sick of is hearing so many people say “ahhhh yes THIS is Soundwave, not that Bayverse crap!” It’s stuff like that which makes me go off on this kind of rant because why can’t I like both versions of Soundwave? Now as I said before I like the “new” Soundwave designs, but yes, I think he is too G1, but in the sense that he references nothing but G1. For example, maybe he could have some big speakers on him to reference TFA and Bayverse and maybe a line that moves across his eyes to reference TFP, alngside that head design, those colors, and that shape which, yes, are completely G1. I like his G1 design, as I do Starscream's, but maybe I also like their other looks, is that really so improbable? Starscream, while I like how he looks, could maybe use some big shoulder cannons like he had in Armada as a reference and maybe he could have some silver and some blue on his helmet to reference TFP, Galaxy Force, and FOC. Maybe Shockwave could have a red eye, a bigger cannon, and a tank alt mode to reference TFP, Bayverse, and TFA. Bumblebee's design is fine, it mixes a few designs, and Wheeljack's look is fine, but it wouldn't hurt maybe to give him a face underneath the mask with some mini robot glasses to reference TFP and Bayverse in small ways. Maybe he could also carry grenades and a sword. But what also matters is how the personality fits the character design. Wheeljack is sciencey, so maybe he should be a tow truck on Earth rather than a sports car. Same thing with Jazz in the future; a racecar doesn't fit his personality, so he should maybe be a classic stylish car, being all white with some white wall tires to top it off. He would still have a visor and be white to reference G1, he would be a classic car to reference TFA, and maybe his helmet could be more like it was in Bayverse.

    Again, I'm not saying that having G1 influence is bad at all, in fact, I like it. What I'm saying, again, is that with so much variety in the designs of the past, we should reference more than just G1 and Bayverse.

    This is intended to be a new future for the franchise, so obviously it should change style, but asking why Bayverse designs never changed is besides the point because they are intended to fit together... and they did change styles in movie 4. You ask if the style of Bayverse is getting old by my logic, but that's not what I'm arguing at all; you're mixing up style and design. The style (the general aesthetics of the robots in general) is fine; it never bothered me in any continuity. Being jagged or blocky is a style choice, not a design choice. And generally speaking, none of them lean towards one style more than the other, it's a more sleek take on the Bay look. It's the designs that need work, what the basic look of a character is. Again, I'm not saying boo to G1, just more credit to other continuities. You said this isn't the Armada storyline, of course it isn't, but that doesn't mean that it can't have design references to Armada because it isn't the G1 storyline either but it has serious G1 influence.

    Look, what I'm saying is not "NO G1 BAD!!" as you have suggested that I am. I'm saying that we shouldn't exclusively reference the G1-esque designs, we can reference other important pieces of Transformers history alongside G1. Now why is it exactly that you are so against that?
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
  7. rapid_fire

    rapid_fire TFW2005 Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Posts:
    6,155
    Trophy Points:
    367
    Likes:
    +3,902
    G1 would never cheat with transformations!

    RAGE!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Music

    Music Primetimus Prime

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2014
    Posts:
    4,975
    News Credits:
    19
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Likes:
    +15,313
    YouTube (Old):
    Okay, it seems like your argument is that the characters don't match the designs and expectations you got from previous movies. That I do agree with, yes, the designs are different but see, I see that as a good thing. These designs retain a reasonable degree of complexity and happen to look more like the source material. The only reason you think they are too "cartoony" is that the only place you've seen this look, particularly Soundwave, is in other cartoon-related to media. It helps that you see Soundwave in an all CGI environment without the help of human interaction to sell you the realism factor. You've accustomed yourself to attach Soundwave with his blocky chest and shoulder canon to the cartoon, otherwise, they are not anymore cartoony than let's say designs from Pacific Rim or other films that feature mech. For example, Chappie in the film with the same title has a similar blocky design aesthetic. I don't see how Knightverse Soundwave is any less realistic than the hypercomplex Bayverse Soundwave. Simple does not automatically mean cartoony. Countless mechs are like that throughout Hollywood—I don't see how it's all of a sudden an issue when Transformers does the same thing.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  9. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2009
    Posts:
    5,855
    News Credits:
    99
    Trophy Points:
    297
    Location:
    Istanbul, Turkey
    Likes:
    +6,512
    Instagram:
    I don't agree in the slightest. It's not some trick of the eye situation. The best example of the best of both worlds are the Seekers. They perfectly capture the look of G1 characters and of bayverse. Same could've been done with Soundwave and Shockwave as well without sacrificing anything but they didn't. I don't have a problem with Prime as well, he looks great. But the others are awfully simple and mostly made of onepiece panels on each area. Their WFC counterparts look more sleek and detailed without messing with the source material.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Dragga

    Dragga Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2016
    Posts:
    184
    Trophy Points:
    122
    Likes:
    +443
    You're ignoring that the scenes do have context that I have pointed to. They don't match the designs of the previous, no, but Soundwave, Shockwave, Arcee, Brawn, and what I've seen of Wheeljack don't even match the designs of the Seeker or Bumblebee in those same shots. Those characters serve as the context as Blitzwing and BB get Earth forms to show they carry the aesthetic regardless of form taken and serve as a measuring point for the other designs. Arcee is also extremely blatant as her facial style is radically different even from Cliffjumper and Brawn shown in the same promotional still. Also, Chappie is not designed to shift between modes. The simple, blocky designs sported by a lot of the G1 heavy bots on Cybertron do not look like they are capable of transformation without a lot more of a cartoon "cheating" you'd expect of the original cartoon, and I cannot agree with that in the context of a live action adaptation. Once again, in contrast, BB (and by extension, Cliffjumper) and the Seekers show a lot more of a panel-shifted look to their armor plating that would convey that more parts and mass are there to move between forms rather than simple flat and boxy designs that look more like a Generations toy with extremely realistic textures super-imposed.

    I like character design, and one of the elements I really enjoyed about the franchise was seeing how designs could vary and still work. But these designs simply do not feel like any concern was put into the medium they'd be presented in for the sake of pandering to the "G1 or bust" crowds. Hell, even liking the Bay films for what they are, I admit that smoothing them a bit and adding more touches of legacy to their namesakes wouldn't hurt, but I never wanted the films to take such a slavish approach to design. I was thinking that with TF: Prime having shown a successful streamlining of that movieverse look, we'd see more design cues pulled from what it achieved. I'll even point to the TF: Universe game's concept art for Optimus as something I'd have liked to see influence the movie more.

    And if it helps my point, while I enjoyed Age of Extinction, I felt the designs in that also went too far in stylizing the robots to the point where their level of complexity still didn't properly align with them being able to transform, resulting in a weird visual turn off, so to speak. Like, Prime's knightly design, in a vacuum, gelled with my aesthetic preferences (I'm a sucker for robotic knights, so this applies to the Knights of Iacon and TLK Megatron too) it resulted in a robot mode that never once convinced me it was designed as a Transformer, so I couldn't get into it as much as one (even if the voyager Megatron more or less made me eat my words). Bumblebee's Cybertron designs result in a similar feeling as the AoE/TLK designs for me, in that they sacrificed the "real world" vibe for style and suffer immensely for it, and the upcoming Optimus toy that was leaked cements it more because he still looks like he belongs in perhaps the High Moon games or even the pages of the IDW comics, not a live-action adaptation.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. Music

    Music Primetimus Prime

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2014
    Posts:
    4,975
    News Credits:
    19
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Likes:
    +15,313
    YouTube (Old):
    Fair enough. The Seekers are slightly more complex, but I don't think Soundwave is as simple as you make him out to be. Hell, it's more complex than the WFC designs which you mentioned were somehow better. The WFC designs have pretty much the same aesthetic as what you see in the film, but the film-side of things being a bit more detailed. I'm confused about what you meant by that because from what I see, the Knightverse designs are more detailed.

    Bumblebee Soundwave and WFC Soundwave.jpg

    I think people are put off by the large flat chest area, but that's just an element that's carried over from the source material.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. marktron

    marktron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2016
    Posts:
    151
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    82
    Location:
    world´s citizen
    Likes:
    +77
    BAYB ERSE..HYPEREALLISTIC-COMPLEX-OMNI-MULTI-DEGREE (more than meet the eye)....  KNIGHTVERSE: 1 STEEP CHANGERS (perfect for who is complex to think in mechatronics and can´t transform  the 1 steep changers)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. BoneheadsOfVoodooIsland

    BoneheadsOfVoodooIsland Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2018
    Posts:
    569
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Likes:
    +2,072
    Our top scientists are hard at work trying to decipher what the fuck you just said.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  14. AOEGalvatronRox

    AOEGalvatronRox Collector

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2014
    Posts:
    2,441
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Likes:
    +8,492
    44CA0E15-66AE-481E-AA9B-A2B19D274E7F.jpeg
    Here’s a live view of one of our top scientists trying to decipher this word salad.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  15. BoneheadsOfVoodooIsland

    BoneheadsOfVoodooIsland Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2018
    Posts:
    569
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Likes:
    +2,072
    I like salad.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. MINDVVIPE

    MINDVVIPE "The powers of darkness..."

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2011
    Posts:
    3,025
    Trophy Points:
    262
    Likes:
    +9,870
    Perfect example. The movie designs are not simple and are complex enough that they look like a variation of IDW easy.

    I can't wait for the all Cybertron movie. It will be like watching a fully cinematic and hyper detailed version of the WFC games. And I'll say once again that this is the first time we are actually seeing transformers look like their iconic selves on the big screen ever. Finally!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. TheSoundwave

    TheSoundwave Bounty Hunter

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2013
    Posts:
    7,140
    News Credits:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    247
    Location:
    Jabba's Palace
    Likes:
    +12,668
    I did notice that Bumblebee's transformation is a bit cheaty, but I think it might be a bit more obvious here than it was in the Bay movies because the designs are simpler, our eyes follow certain parts easier. As long as they do a decent job hiding it, I don't mind. I just want fun and clever transformations, which we got. It would be a nightmare for the designers to incorporate every vehicle part into the robot, and it might end up feeling too technical and reduce the personality of the designs.

    One thing I noticed on my second viewing: Shatter's robot mode engine (the part sandwiched between the headlights) is a fake. It's actually quite obvious if you watch for it, because it's much bigger than the actual vehicle mode engine, and it has red on it (I think both engines are actually seen at the same time, for a brief moment). It's the kind of thing 99% of viewers won't even notice, but I purposely watched for it because I figured they'd pull something sneaky, lol. Honestly, I enjoy little touches like that.
     
  18. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Lean Mean Angry Machine

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Posts:
    40,692
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    417
    Location:
    [REDACTED]
    Likes:
    +28,487
    Well, the simple answer is that they didn't Transform. It's obvious from The Fallen's design that he really wasn't designed to turn into anything - both by the weird 'waist' connectors on his arms as well as how absolutely trash his Voyager is with the 'Cybertronian Destroyer' mode which is a giant plastic turd. His Legends is actually kind of good, but when you're that small, you can pass anything off well enough.

    More the writers having no idea how to handle the transformers, but Bay doesn't escape blame. Why the fuck do we care about this knight bullshit and all these suspiciously similar-to-human nonsense factors? Why do they ALL have to mirror human concepts? They're aliens who are already based on human concepts, just use that to illustrate a different alien culture.
     
  19. marktron

    marktron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2016
    Posts:
    151
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    82
    Location:
    world´s citizen
    Likes:
    +77
    no me voy a poner a explicarte un modelo jacobiano de transformación de grados de libertad mecatrónica ni lo voy a traducir a tu triste dialecto
     
  20. marktron

    marktron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2016
    Posts:
    151
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    82
    Location:
    world´s citizen
    Likes:
    +77
    que te digo, no es mi culpa que no hayas estudiado ingeniería y tanto palabras, terminología, reducción de siglas y que no tengas la capacidad de procesamiento de eventos simultáneos en un intervalo de tiempo definido por estudiar licenciatura e derecho.