Ian Failes article on how ILM's transformations have improved over time

Discussion in 'Transformers News and Rumors' started by Moy, Jan 7, 2019.

  1. Jazz of Staniz

    Jazz of Staniz Currently in one piece

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2018
    Posts:
    563
    Trophy Points:
    172
    Likes:
    +1,183
    You can tell that last part to the rest of the G1 people who refuse to accept change. You’re putting words in my mouth as well. I have said repeatedly that I’m a fan of G1 and Bayverse; I actually like G1 a lot. But you don’t hear Bay fans saying that newer designs are terrible because they don’t look like Bay movies.

    I like most of the BB designs on their own, what I don’t like is what they stand for: pandering to an older audience and throwing most ambition out the window. All characters should have traits they keep; Jazz should be cool and wear a visor, Megatron should have an arm cannon, Optimus should be a red and blue truck with his helmet and mask, etc. but that doesn’t mean they have to be what is in essence just G1 with more complexity. We should pick and choose designs that worked and add influence from those designs into modern ones. For example, give Ironhide cannons and make him a pickup truck (Bay), but give him a good deal of red (G1) as well and maybe some big lights (Energon), then give him his own new flair. This way, all of his incarnations get some reference but it’s not all based on the distant past. This should especially be considered for Megatron in the future because, with the sheer amount of variability in design that he’s had, there is so much more to reference than just the G1 design. Maybe give Optimus some yellow touches on his head to reference the UT and TFA.

    My point is that not everything has to be designed with influence given entirely to G1, and Bayverse shouldn’t get hate for doing something new. Both should be appreciated but neither should be considered better than the other.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  2. MattDallas

    MattDallas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2012
    Posts:
    902
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    172
    Likes:
    +1,389
    Facebook:
    I'm not a fan, BUT in defence of the Bay Transformations:

    I always thought the transformations in the films were far fetched & over detailed, but when you think about what they can do with a Masterpiece toy now (say V2 Megatron) and then apply that to something the same size on a 'real' transformer (say a wing mirror) - then apply that all over the car and then take into the fact that one is just a toy and the other is part of a highly advanced alien organism and you realise how complicated they could be in real life.

    But at the end of the day, I personally still like to see what's going where simple style.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Bathawk

    Bathawk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2008
    Posts:
    515
    Trophy Points:
    162
    Likes:
    +48
    The pic for this articlefeminds of the "change-change-finish" steps seen on G1 toys boxart
     
  4. rapid_fire

    rapid_fire TFW2005 Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Posts:
    6,155
    Trophy Points:
    367
    Likes:
    +3,902
    I don't think they have improved over time. The first two movie transformations still blow me away.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  5. Skyquake21

    Skyquake21 Dinobot Wrangler

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2015
    Posts:
    304
    Trophy Points:
    142
    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    Likes:
    +576
    At least with these simplified transformations, we can use them more often. The last two films cut corners more than anything with transformations, Optimus Primes design was so humanoid that they only showed him transform from the waist up, and that is all we got. Drift, crosshairs, and hound had nothing transformation wise other than Drift\'s helicopter mode for the extent of AOE. With Bee movie, u can have a general idea of how they transform by watching them, in the center of the shot without shaky motion blur. Not to bash Bay like a broken record, but its nice to see cinematography thats not a camera being thrown across a treadmill. 
     
    • Like Like x 4
  6. Dragga

    Dragga Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2016
    Posts:
    184
    Trophy Points:
    122
    Likes:
    +443
    It's actually frustrating how blindly attacked the Bay movies have been, and how everyone is constantly acting in this "TOLD YOU THEY WERE FAILURES" despite four out of five being massive successes (Dark of the Moon and Age of Extinction are, last I checked, still among the top 25 highest-grossing films of all time) and The Last Knight being the first one to end up failing expectations at the box office (and even then, it still made plenty of profit overall). The films brought a lot of new life to a franchise that was beginning to fade outside of the circle of devoted old school fans and frankly helped turn the franchise back into a household name. It's constantly obnoxious to see them constantly ragged on as if none of that matters. Even if you don\'t like them, they clearly succeeded and being "big, dumb action flicks" is right in the spirit of the original cartoon.

    I haven't gone to watch Bumblebee, so I will not attempt to claim the film is bad by any stretch, but the choice of pandering so heavily to G1 hurts its aesthetic and artistic merits to me. Especially when these G1-styled characters don't even look like they belong on the same screen as some of the other, more realistically styled Cybertronians. Optimus's design doesn't look like it should be in the same work as any of the forms Bumblebee is seen in. Soundwave and Shockwave look grossly out of place when compared to the Seeker designs like "Blitzwing" or Shatter and Dropkick. It's interesting to see them attempt to streamline the Bay-era designs, but they pushed too far in the other direction for those designs. I'd like to see Optimus get a design more in line with Bumblebee's. The layering of alt mode parts does so much better to convey a Transformer in the real world than adhering so adamantly to G1 styling. I also agree with Jazz of Staniz that simply mimicking G1 takes away the appeal that every continuity can be its own thing rather than yet another by the book "Here's G1 again".

    And before the "Let us have this" comments, those who liked the Bay films got constant flak for it, with few in my personal experiences being content to let those who enjoy them just enjoy. It's hypocritical to spend a decade or more refusing to let others enjoy something then use that defense now for "the G1 movie we've been asking for". Most aren't even trying to claim this film is bad, just that the art direction reeks of pandering in a time where G1 has become the standard across multiple fronts with few other facets of the franchise being allowed back in.

    If they continue, I hope they better mix in the future, especially with animation techniques improving over the years to allow for more flair and life to the visuals. Bee still strikes me as somewhat off, but it's in a very minor way due to the curving of his alt mode parts in the VW body. I do like the idea of streamlining the Bay-era designs, kinda like TF: Prime did, but I hope we actually get more designs that still feel like Bumblebee and "Blitzwing" rather than what they shoved into the Cybertron scene. And at least light up the eyes more on those designs. Arcee looks like she's wearing an oversized porcelain mask, and the pin prick eye lights just look like the characters had their actual optics plucked out prior.
     
    • Like Like x 7
  7. Smasher

    Smasher HUNKY BEATS

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2004
    Posts:
    13,591
    News Credits:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    362
    Likes:
    +1,160
    This! Exactly this!

    That's what I immensely enjoyed about Bumblebee was the amount of on screen transformations.
    They even incorporated transformations into the fight sequences.

    The past two Bay films didn't even try to show proper transformations.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  8. jru42287

    jru42287 Ass Möde is a way of life.

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Posts:
    15,112
    News Credits:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    337
    Likes:
    +16,190
    Just in AoE, or in the entire 5-film series? I think the effects from '07 through DotM actually hold up incredibly well still. Seems like the ones in AoE and TLK took a step backwards and look awful to me.

    I could not possibly agree more.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  9. Music

    Music Primetimus Prime

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2014
    Posts:
    4,975
    News Credits:
    19
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Likes:
    +15,313
    YouTube (Old):
    A few people are saying that Cybertron designs don't work because they look out of place, but I honestly see how that's the case. If you compare movie Bee to Soundwave, they're both blocky and have the same exact amount of complexity. How can they not exist in the same universe? The only difference is that Bee has rounder parts, but the same exact same thing can be said about G1 Bumblebee compared to G1 Soundwave. If you compared let's say Bayverse Bee to Knightverse Soundwave, then I can see how they could clash, but that's why they took steps to simply Bumblebee as they did with the rest of the Bots on Cybertron. You can argue that the ones that do clash are Dropkick and Shatter who are more on the Bayverse side, which I can agree, but it seems like they are the anomaly, not the norm. Though, I find it funny that the ones that look out of place in your opinion just coincidently happen to be the Bots that are more faithful to G1. I'm sensing a little bias playing with your judgment.


    Bumblebee Soundwave.jpg
     
    • Like Like x 3
  10. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2009
    Posts:
    5,855
    News Credits:
    99
    Trophy Points:
    297
    Location:
    Istanbul, Turkey
    Likes:
    +6,512
    Instagram:
    AOE. TLK is not terrible but still not on par with the original trilogy.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. jru42287

    jru42287 Ass Möde is a way of life.

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Posts:
    15,112
    News Credits:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    337
    Likes:
    +16,190
    There were a few scenes in TLK that I felt looked "unfinished." The most notable was the scene of Daytrader putting down Starscream's head. Continuity errors aside, it just looked terrible.
     
  12. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Lean Mean Angry Machine

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Posts:
    40,691
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    417
    Location:
    [REDACTED]
    Likes:
    +28,485
    Bay films only really used transformation as a means for faster transport and little else. There are one or two exceptions but the biggest problem I had with the bay films is how a race of robots to whom shapeshifting is second nature barely used it for more unconventional uses. Saying this was due to expensive cgi only goes so far when you have screen wasting garbage like lockdown's gravity ship.

    But at the same time the previous films never quite got past them simply being alien robots period, if the idea of putting big robots in the past was ever taken seriously. What would robots in ancient Rome or Japan turn into? All they did in the middle ages was turn into dragons, because that's all they realistically could be. Real heavy machinery which would be more appropriate doesn't come around until the industrial revolution.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  13. BB Shockwave

    BB Shockwave Behold, Gagatron!

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2003
    Posts:
    9,674
    News Credits:
    55
    Trophy Points:
    337
    Location:
    Budapest
    Likes:
    +8,342
    Ebay:
    Oh I know that trick, it is called CHEATING. It ain\'t new either, ILM used it in 2007 and ever since too. I was pretty disappointed that despite the new designs being more straight bulky and blocky, the transformations were still the nonsense panel-swirlings of Bayformers. Why can\'t they just transform properly like the toys, without any fake chestplates and stuff appearing from nowhere? Given how ridiculously complex some of the toys are, it could be easily translated to CGI. 
     
    • Like Like x 3
  14. BB Shockwave

    BB Shockwave Behold, Gagatron!

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2003
    Posts:
    9,674
    News Credits:
    55
    Trophy Points:
    337
    Location:
    Budapest
    Likes:
    +8,342
    Ebay:
    For me it was the opposite... when we had extremely good blocky G1 designs like Optimus, Wheeljack, Arcee, Cliffjumper, Brawn... then seeing the more panel-y Bayformers style of Bee, Shatter and Dropkick next to them felt off. Especially with the faces. After seeing how they can do a proper human-like robot face on Cliffjumper that is expressive and looks nice, it hurt that Shatter just had a weird bear-trap thing for a mouth and Bee still has the stupid bottle cap mouthplate.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Music

    Music Primetimus Prime

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2014
    Posts:
    4,975
    News Credits:
    19
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Likes:
    +15,313
    YouTube (Old):
    I would not say Bee is anymore panel-y than Prime and Knight did his best to make Bee's face better by simplifying it and making his mouth moreplate look like an oval speaker, but I can understand your sentiments towards Shatter. She definitely had more of the Bayverse aesthetic and I have a feeling because she was designed very early on.
    I guess that won't matter much in the sequel now that she's gone. ;) 
     
  16. dragon

    dragon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2006
    Posts:
    2,874
    News Credits:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    307
    Likes:
    +598
    Welcome to my world I have been saying for years narrow minded people can accept changes to comics and cartoons but never in movies talking to those people is talking to brick wall those are people who don’t talk to new fans to know what new fans like


    As I have been saying for years most people can accept changes in comics and cartoons but never in movies not everything have to be g1

    Beast wars have fake chest plates , robots in disguise prime as fire truck have chest plate, you can accept changes in comics and cartoons but never in movies let’s not get going in comics how many bots in comics transform have fake chest plates lost count same can be said in transformers prime and animated

    Where shockwave human face , soundwave human what are they giant alien robots never had contact with humans until earth you complain about bumblebee looking more robotic and alone what about others I don’t have faceplate for mouth, my face is not lightbulb emotionless expressionless for face do you have lightbulb for face , does your mouth have face plate like prime and soundwave cut g1 shit out you can accept changes in cartoons and comics but in movies where was your complaint about prime being fire truck in cartoons, where was your complaint about prowl being police motorcycle ninja, your complaint about shockwave being double agent one with lightbulb in transformers animated series, your complaint about omega surpreame being ark, in energon being train combine with prime where was your stupid pointless g1 complaints about them then where not everything needs be g1 you can accept changes in transformers cartoons and comics you dam well can accept some changes in movies what type of fan is called one sided all time that can accept changes of classic characters look and personalities in cartoons but never in movies.,

    Get off your high chair look at movies in different you did it for and with cartoons with no dam problem didn’t you you do same with movies you g1 crap prime in bumblebee in truck mode in end movie look to Dam cartoony looking show me picture of red square semi truck driving on road that’s not realistic that’s cartoon in live action format stop being stuck up all time on movies how it’s g1 shit and accept some changes and look at good movies have done impossible that cartoons and comics could have never done made transformers popular all over again and took people who NEVER EVER Watch cartoons read comics and turned them into transformer fans and you should try talking to new transformer fans I know it will be painful for you but maybe you can learn from each other what you both like about transformers and don’t like will not kill you try it
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. AOEGalvatronRox

    AOEGalvatronRox Collector

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2014
    Posts:
    2,441
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Likes:
    +8,492
    With all due respect, just because the G1-inspired designs might not be someone’s cup of tea doesn’t mean they’re biased against G1 or something like that.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  18. Starscream Gaga

    Starscream Gaga Protoformed This Way

    Joined:
    May 19, 2011
    Posts:
    9,607
    News Credits:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    287
    Likes:
    +5,751
    Did you actually read the post I was quoting or what I said before you went straight into Defense mode? Just a question.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. MINDVVIPE

    MINDVVIPE "The powers of darkness..."

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2011
    Posts:
    3,025
    Trophy Points:
    262
    Likes:
    +9,870
    You said the designs were pandering to G1, so essentially you are saying it is TOO G1. You are complaining about the design not being unique or a deviation away from G1. I'm not putting words in your mouth; I get what you're saying. Then you go on to say one shouldn't be seen as better than the other when you just argued you don't want to see designs that tie closer to g1 (and honestly the majority of tf designs across the lore where clearly bayverse designs are one of the most extreme deviations from the characters general looks) and want to see more creativity.
    I have never seen any designs in the Bee movie that looked exactly like that before, and no one has EVER seen designs that are that much closer to the mass morjority of character designs that are similar to G1 in a live action movie before, which in and of itself is a new offering.

    You are saying you dont hear bay fans complaining about the designs not being like the bayverse in essence of being different than G1 but you are a bay fan complaining you are not getting designs that are crazy and new, and yet you also want references to all iterations of the character in the history of the lore.

    All of it sounds like a long winded way to complain that they look TOO G1 just to pander to fans. So I guess the CHUG line is mostly pandering eh? The WFC games are mostly pandering and IDW is mostly pandering too. Even animated, which you seem to like, is also mostly pandering. Tf prime is pandering with wheeljack, prime, and ratchet.

    You can have that argument all day long, but I honestly think its total nonsense. Just because characters look more similar to the mass majority of their past iterations is not pandering. Ever even consider for a second that the director enjoyed those designs and wanted to see that more than anything else? Is he pandering to himself?

    Don't be a snob if your going to try and show your open mindedness to new designs as I remind you once again, these design ARE entirely new creations we have never seen before. They just take visual cues from what the mass majority of TF lore shows these characters to generally look like.

    I also think it's really subjective on why style you think works and doesn't. I like a lot of different styles and have absolutely no problem with a more block soundwave and a more jagged drop kick. People are saying the G1 look hurt the movie? Then you could argue the more bayverse look hurt the movie since it is all subjective.

    Sounds dumb to think all those robots need to conform to a style anyway given that they are all aliens from a planet much larger than earth, and also this is fiction. Complaining designs are too G1 is total and utter nonsense.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
    • Like Like x 4
  20. Smasher

    Smasher HUNKY BEATS

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2004
    Posts:
    13,591
    News Credits:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    362
    Likes:
    +1,160
    I've thought of that, too.
    If the Transformers built the pyramids, what did they turn into back then?
    But it was never explored because they had to occupy the screen time was instead occupied with Devastator's balls.

    I don't think that Bay ever really knew what to do with the Transformers as characters.
    Even as late as The Last Knight.
    Cade was literally screaming at Forgettable Pretty Lady #3 that he wasn't driving Bumblebee as they were going to the submarine, the HMS Alliance.
    Then they get inside the submarine, randomly state that the sub is, in fact, a Transformer, but then realize the predicament that neither one of them knows how to pilot a submarine.
    So car Transformers drive themselves but nautical Transformers don't?
     
    • Like Like x 2