I don't really think the designs are that different?

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Toad84, Jan 26, 2020.

  1. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout A face you can trust! Really!

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    lol is it that hard to grasp the colossal change in direction after DOTM which, in short, was "who cares so long as it does well in China?" The designs are just a visual aspect of the absolute no shits anybody with the film gave after 2011.
     
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  2. Galvatross

    Galvatross Shrek yourself before you check yourself! Veteran

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    Oh, please, stop acting as if your narrative is fact already! Just because you didn't like how the designs were post-DotM, it doesn't mean that they "didn't care." If they didn't care, they probably wouldn't have gone into the effort of making so many new designs to begin with! Not to mention the fact fans wanted designs that were less in the way of grey scrap metal and less insectoid, and that's what both the human-like, visually expressive Autobot designs are like as well as the colorful and more solid KSI Transformers. Nor do I think there was any less care put into other aspects of AoE; that's just fans, including those of the earlier films, salty about the film not being the imaginary Transformers film they wanted, and their favorite characters from DotM not getting the happy ending fans wished for them.


    I think you just hate AoE and TLK to such a ridiculous degree, and your hatred existed before either film was even released in theaters, that you don't like the idea of anyone else liking them, or even aspects of them. Furthermore, you act as if they aren't real Transformers films just because you don't like them, and that the robots within those films aren't real Transformers, because you don't like their designs.

    Guess what? I don't care for either RiD, or the Unicron Trilogy, or Cyberverse, or the Machinima series, but I don't claim that people who like those series, "don't care about the franchise." I don't think my preferences are "better" or "worse" than those of other fans. If other fans see something in RiD or Cyberverse that I don't, I think that's great!

    Yes, I love the movies along with many of the cartoons and comics! Yes, I love Age of Extinction and think it's much better in terms of narrative, theme, character, and designs than given credit. Not everyone has to agree with me. The people who don't like the movies are just as much fans as those who do...BUT at the same time, people who like what you don't are just as much fans and have valid reasons for liking what they do. Likewise, the robot designs you dislike are just as much Transformers designs as the ones you do. Ditto to designs I may dislike, or who anyone else in the fandom dislikes.

    Finally, nothing in the brand...no show or movie or comic or robot design...is worth getting legitimately angry about. I don't like much rap or hip hop music, but to quote one of the good rap songs, albeit edited to fit Transformers: Felt's "The Biggest Lie."

    "The problem with Transformers? Nothing at all. It's a toy brand, it changes, and it ranges, it evolves. It ain't always for the better, but be patient with it y'all. For Prime's time will come and one will be all!"

    Even the stuff that I don't think is that good in Transformers (Machinima, Unicron Trilogy, RiD, etc.) is still not a problem to me, because Transformers a diverse, ever-evolving toy brand. Even if there were never another film, show, comic, or toy line I liked again (small chance, but hypothetically speaking), I'd be content; the stuff that already exists is something for me to enjoy, and the other stuff brings joy to other, usually newer, fans. Hasbro doesn't owe me anything. Paramount doesn't owe me anything. Bay, Knight, and anyone else involved in making the films owe me nothing.

    Like AoE and/or TLK as movies, as well as their designs. Or don't like them. But let's please stop with the needless attitude from you and others that what you don't like isn't "real" Transformers, and that robot designs need to be approved by members of the fandom with similar opinions to be "real" Transformers.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2020
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  3. cybeast

    cybeast Well-Known Member

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    Does the Submarine ever transform? No.
    Does it called a Transformers in the movie? Yes.

    He may be capable of transforming, but we never see it or even hear his voice...
     
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  4. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout A face you can trust! Really!

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    You wanna run those toy sales numbers by me again?

    Because I'm pretty sure AoE sold like ass while the current G1 revival stuff is doing gangbusters.

    Maybe it has something to do with the fact the designs actually look like aesthetically pleasing robots and not just slap-dash metal humans wearing car parts.

    Wrong again. AoE I was willing to give a chance, because I actually thought the first three films were okay (granted ROTF is maybe 30 minutes long for me since I generally just skip to all the robot fight scenes and anything involving Simmons because I like Simmons) so more of the same, right?

    No. I get characters who totally could have gotten developed murdered the fuck off because of some outrageous bullshit where the films literally couldn't come up with anything to actually limit the Autobots beyond 'humans betray them again'. YOU apparently think the human condition is terminal and we're all a bunch of goddamn assholes such that the films make sense on that, but after three films where the biggest actual threat to the Autobots has been the humans...AoE just doubles down by removing the Decepticons from the equation entirely.

    Lockdown also is a massive joke, because he is just laughably inferior to the guy he's based on. The original Lockdown showed up once per season, so he only appeared THREE TIMES in Animated...but he was the single most influential character BECAUSE of who he was and what he did. AoE Lockdown is the hired goon mouthpiece for a completely different group that got no development beyond a non-trademarkable name. That and I think his design is bland as shit for a robot, let alone a Transformer.

    Oh, and Prime is apparently a knight now and that's super important. On the level of him being a Prime, which that in of itself no longer fucking matters somehow? Excuse me?

    Finally, I think Mark Whalberg is a terrible actor so you know what? Maybe I was a little biased against the film initially. But Cade just was intolerable. TLK just underscores that point.

    Now, when TLK started getting teased? I though they might actually have fixed shit. They even brought back Lennox, who honestly I thought they should have gone with as a father instead of having to invent Cade "Asshole" Yeager, since Lennox actually existed within the universe with a daughter AND had a tight connection with the Autobots. His actor also probably would have cost a lot less than "Only here for the name on the poster" Whalberg.

    And yet when other people shit on other things...where are you? You white knight the ever living crap out of the films, especially AoE, but I don't see you going around telling people to respect other franchises like you virtually demand people to do with the films over the past six years.

    You say not everyone has to agree with you...and yet here we are, once again, in a text wall war, where you are straight up trying to refute every single point anybody makes on why the films - and particularly AoE - suck. Have you ever thought of just...not? Just let people say bad things about the film without getting involved?

    Yeaaaaahhhhhh...no. There are things that very, VERY much deserve the hate.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Yeah, how'd that work when the films were around for ten plus years? Longer than any single flagship incarnation of the brand before or since? G1 itself only lasted for SEVEN years!

    Furthermore, when that general idea of 'moving on' was brought up, do you know who bitched and moaned the loudest about that? THE DIE HARD BAYVERSE FANS.

    It's really kind of ironic that you are basically preaching about 'change and evolution' in the franchise...while at the same time you dig your heels in supporting what generally has become regarded as the prime example of the complete opposite.

    And yet you'll complain about how much you hate the fandom like you expect THEM to owe you something!

    The chances of that happening are about as likely as you dropping your Shrek obsession permamently.

    We both know that ain't happening.
     
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  5. AutobotAvalanche

    AutobotAvalanche Number One in Boogieland Moderator

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    Alright, I think we're moving away from the discussion about Bay vs. Knight designs and more into general Bay conversation again... Please move it to a more appropriate thread, or use PM/profile posts if you can't steer back on course. Thanks.
     
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  6. Galvatross

    Galvatross Shrek yourself before you check yourself! Veteran

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    And I'm going to say this right now: Who cares? The submarine not transforming was the least of The Last Knight's issues. It's not like it was likely going to be some named character, or at least not a name many fans would care for. It's a single submarine.

    I guarantee you all six live action films have had vehicles that were meant to be Transformers and were filmed as such, but ended up with their transformations and/or robots getting cut. For whatever reason, probably because they needed a submarine to get to the underwater ship, they still had to include something about it being a Transformer just to explain the escape. I'm not saying it's ideal. I just think that's more result of changes in production than transformation not being important.

    Ironically, while TLK didn't do well movie-wise, from what I read it did fairly well in toy sales. And you can't project your own personal preferences on millions of general audience consumer. Neither can I.



    I'm like a teacher. I know the students better than the parents and students do. I remember your posting behavior back then, because I have a really good long term memory. You once said Revenge of the Fallen was one of the worst decisions in the history of the franchise. This was before AoE. You also were saying how AoE wasn't going to be good well before it came out.

    I'm not saying I know what you're like as a person in real life better than you do. I certainly do not. I'm just saying I remember you once had a very different attitude toward RotF, and that you were negative about Transformers 4 before it came out. Maybe you don't remember some of your posts back then? Which is fine, as views can change over time. I'm certain some of my views about the brand were different back then, too. In fact, I know some of them were, namely about Seasons 3 and 4 of the original cartoon, which I now enjoy a lot more.


    Elements within humanity absolutely are at that level. If humans are capable of doing similar things to our own species and other species here in Earth, they are capable of hunting Transformers, which are a technologically advanced alien race capable of warfare, with Lockdown and melting them down to turn the resulting metal into new robots that they control. The very history of the human species is trying to maintain the illusion of control, which is what Cemetery Wind's and KSI's efforts are. They merely think they're in control, but they're not.

    And one of the other themes of AoE is, "You gotta look at the junk and see the treasure." Because you have to look at the ugliness that can be humanity and see the good elements within the human species. It's something that the Autobots and human protagonists alike share, because on the surface they can be cynical, misanthropic, or selfish in the particular case of Crosshairs, but on the inside they aren't all bad. They all have their own good qualities within them.


    Except they weren't? They often acted in ways that allowed the Decepticons to get their way, but they were never the biggest threats. The biggest threats in all of the films have always been Cybertronian, with some humans aiding and abetting here and there.

    And even if they were the biggest threat, doesn't that mean the other films are guilty, too?


    But it doesn't? Megatron is behind the entire KSI thread. It doesn't eliminate the Decepticons from the equation. It evolves them.


    And to me, Lockdown is the most interesting antagonist in the movies, edging out both Sentinel and Megatron, although I really like the other two as well. I think all three of them are very interesting characters. He sees a bigger picture than anyone else we meet, and he rejects the notion of factions, and he views the Autobot-Decepticon war as a blight on the universe. He doesn't seem to like much of anyone or anything; he dislikes the Transformer factions, his human allies, his own crew, the species he encounters around the cosmos, and the planet of Earth. He's not fond of humans...but he's not out to destroy humanity either. The only thing in the universe he likes, the only thing he mentions that he enjoys, is his job. And to me, all of these things make him an excellent adaptation of the Animated character.


    In this thread (and in many other threads, too), you actually started a response to me, and I responded back. Here's the proof.

    This is my initial post in this thread:

    I don't really think the designs are that different?

    You then respond with this:

    I don't really think the designs are that different?

    So it was you who actually started the arguments with me in this thread. Which is fine, but then don't act as if I shouldn't try to refute points when you were the one who initially responded to me.

    I am happy to have respectful discussions with you. I'm fine with you disagreeing with me, but a lot of the time you seem to get needlessly angry. And maybe my posts sound needlessly angry back, but for better or for worse sometimes we all, or most of us at least, react strongly to strong actions.


    And to me, even the worst things about the brand don't deserve anything more than a, "Meh," or "Whatever." Including the examples you posted.


    Except the later movies get ripped apart primarily because of the changes they made from the earlier movies, and that they weren't similar enough to the earlier movies. The opposite is more rarely argued.


    I don't expect jack from the fandom.

    That said, as a fan, we are here, because we love something about the brand. So maybe we should focus more on what we love, or at the very least look at the junk and see the treasure with what we don't like?

    EDIT: I just saw the mod's post. Let's get back on topic. I agree they aren't as different as believed.
     
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  7. Zemah

    Zemah All-round Transformers Fan

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    Thank you! I couldn't have said it better myself. I truly believe that the excellent response from Galvatross, as in the first quote, is something everyone in this thread should not only read but also understand. Everyone in this forum should absorb that mindset.

    As for the topic at hand; I agree that the designs aren't that different. They look G1 but feel like Bayverse, which is a perfect combination in my opinion. Not that I disliked the Bayverse designs, but the new designs are much more clean.
     
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  8. Galvatross

    Galvatross Shrek yourself before you check yourself! Veteran

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    You're welcome, and thanks!

    And while it's off topic, I want to share something I have personally seen. In the not too distant past, I was in the ancient city of Jericho in the West Bank. Driving the opposite direction from where I'm going, I see a sedan with Palestinian license plates, and this car had multiple bumper stickers on its windows...and seemingly all of them dealt with Transformers. I recall some insignia, but what I definitely remember was a large bumper sticker saying "Transformers: Armada." I have zero connection to Armada, but I was happy to see that someone in this ancient city in the Middle East, which is in a very desolate desert and hundreds of feet below sea level, found something or multiple things in the Transformers brand they enjoyed. How awesome it is that people all over the world can find enjoyment from toys and cartoons and movies within the Transformers brand! This fan in Jericho, whoever they are, may not prefer the same cartoons as I do, but I think it's awesome they do like what they do!

    Now back to the thread topic, there are is a Bayverse design that I think is actually quite similar in some ways to Shatter and especially Dropkick, and it's one of my favorites from the Bay movies: TLK Barricade. Like Dropkick, he's rounded and blue and very solid, although he's closer to being grey than Dropkick. And like Shatter and Dropkick, he's more visually expressive than the original Barricade design in 2007.
     
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  9. 96megatron

    96megatron Well-Known Member

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    Me too. I can't wait to display Studio Series Bumblebee Movie Blitzwing, other seekers, with SS 2007 Starscream, SS Nitro Zeus. Also I want to stand him next to SS Brawl. I really want to see Blitzwing and Brawl together as the heavies of their respective movies, who get killed by Bumblebee. Although Brawl died due to being worn out by other Autobots, while Blitzwing died due to stupidity(in my opinion).
    And Studio Series Bumblebee 2 Earth Mode Brawn, with SS 2007 Ironhide, and SS AOE or TLK Hound. Maybe SS Bumblebee 2 Earth Mode Ironhide if he has a pickup truck alt mode, instead of a van, like his TF Universe Aligned Continuity and TF Animated Season 4 truck mode, and his bay cannons.
     
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  10. John TheDestroyer

    John TheDestroyer Yoinkus

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    But which is which:eek: 
     
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  11. Dotmshockwave

    Dotmshockwave Decepticon Assassin

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    They are both good designs in their own right. Bay's version was just shafted, by, well, obviously the fact it was in a Bay film. I seriously wish we could have someone competently make a movie with Bay's designs (one could argue like the 07 film did), but i do not see that happening unfortunately.
     
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  12. Moy

    Moy Constructicons!

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    The truth is Bay was never hired to create a transformers that would have a deep story. As an action director he delivered what paramount wanted. And what he's best at. An action packed and visually stunning movie. If his designs were given to another director, like Travis Knight for instance, yeah, the storyline would've been much better.

    But Paramount's priorities were much different 10 years ago.
     
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  13. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout A face you can trust! Really!

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    Which in turn circles back to the importance of the designs having stuff where you can tell what they turn into as far as robot mode goes. You can easily tell at a glance what they become.

    It also does make them far more visually interesting. Seeing recognizable vehicle parts being arranged in a very not-vehicular way certainly sells the idea of transforming robot as opposed to generic metalic humanoids with no real recognizable vehicle part shapes whatsoever.
     
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  14. Moy

    Moy Constructicons!

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    For me there's a limit to how much freedom is given in efforts to create new designs.
    [​IMG]
    The knights for instance were not very interesting to look at. And took away what made Transformers work in the last knight.

    Optimus for my taste could've had more vehicle kibble. Nizzi's concept was what I had in mind.
    [​IMG]
    Bulldog on the other hand was on the right track. But it neither transformed nor given a larger role. (Backstory of him and jetfire perhaps) His face is the one thing I didn't approve.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    I gave Lockdown a pass because they at least made some effort in showing off some vehicle parts. But it was a last minute change. And also because Lockdown belonged to a new species of alien robot species.

    The transformations got more fluid after TF3. Something that was missing from the films.

    Fortunately with Bumblebee the transformations were back. And ironically most of Bay's inspired designs too.
    [​IMG]
     
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  15. sladeprime

    sladeprime Check the earth. It might be Unicron.

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    Yeah Bulldog's body is fine
     
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