I don't really think the designs are that different?

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Toad84, Jan 26, 2020.

  1. Bee Camaro

    Bee Camaro Well-Known Member

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    It's such a shame that they didn't. I'd imagine their personalities would be just as wacky as their designs.

    I pointed out some exaggeration here.

    And you're making the transformations in AoE sound a hell of a lot worse than they actually were.

    But it wasn't a whole show based around them.....
    And it didn't have the shows Optimus being a "munky" instead of a "trukk".

    Of course I have. I own one.
    It didn't cross my mind, as not many people seem to like the four legged version.

    My mistake then.

    I couldn't have put it better myself.
     
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  2. AutobotStrider

    AutobotStrider Well-Known Member

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    Ah can't reply, it might get deleted lol.
     
  3. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP AKA Beve Stuscemi

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    Well, considering we never even saw Hound, Drift or Crosshairs transform into their automobile modes, I can’t imagine it getting much worse than that.

    I mean, watch Lockdown transform. Now I disagree with AB that Lockdown is a bad design personally, but just watch that transformation. Everything gets sucked in and tucked away, no piece of the alt mode persists onto the robot mode. Even the colour changes. Same thing with Optimus, every part of the truck just vanishes, not a single identifiable piece remaining unobscured and visible to the audience. Same thing with the Dinobots, and Grimlock in particular. Dude has two pieces of identifiable alt mode, his T. Rex heads. Guess what don’t actually show up in alt mode? When he transforms the smaller shoulder heads just flip out of view as a completely different T. Rex head emerges half-formed from within before finishing. The other a Dinobots are even worse, (Strafe rolls into a ball then just explodes. Shit right out of Beast Machines) and let's not even mention the Transformium characters.

    The-only character with a a decent transformation is Bumblebee in his classic body, because that robot mode is still designed to look like it transforms, but even when he “upgrades” his transformation becomes the same impossible crap as before. Even Optimus’ Marmon form cheats horrifically. Not a single transformation in AOE looks visually impressive or even part ways plausible. The movie TFs have always had completely impossible transformations, but a tonne of effort was put in by the animators, character designers, and even Bay’s directing to make them seem real, to really make us believe that truck turned into that robot. With AOE they just gave up, and everyone just morphs in an instant with no parts visibly transition from one place to another. It’s so unbelievably cheap and unsatisfying to watch.


    I don’t disagree, and I consider myself quite open minded. If I wasn’t, I’d have never gotten into the Michael Bay movies to begin with. I love change, and my biggest criticism of modern Transformers is how little change and how little pushing the boundaries it does, forcing me to revisit old lines I never completed simply because they are, by contrast, so different to today. (In fact the only modern line I still collect is Studio Series and the BW MPs, don’t get much more different than that)

    My problem is Age of Extinction does not belong among the alumni of greats you mentioned. Each one of those series, Beast Wars, Beast Machines, and Animated, proved influential in the brand’s development. They were not simply different, they were game changing. Beast Wars and Animated don’t really require much explanation for why they stand the tests of time, but even Beast Machines had positive ramifications over time. It was, ultimately, the only Transformers cartoon to completely eschew its nature as a toy commercial in favour of telling a good story. (In fact it almost spitefully acted as such a poor vessel for product that none of its characters matched their available toys, any many did not even receive toys) It was dark, emotional, and attempted to evolve the Transformers method in a way that feels utterly quaint in its subtlety and restraint given the modern low-brow faux biblical implications of shit like “the 13” and Primus. Short of failing to accurately visualize those concepts (even the show’s creators would’ve liked to represent a techno-organic Cyberton as more than just a palette-swap with a few trees here and there) it honestly has one of the most cohesive and intelligent stories Transformers has ever told.

    Age of Extinction, by contrast, is a terrible, terrible movie. It fails in nearly every regard as both a storytelling medium, a product vehicle, a lore-building tool, and as a representation for what Transformers is and can be. Every facet of that movie is a mis-step or wasted opportunity, and it so badly establishes a greater lore the very next film all but ignores everything it setup. The story is pedantically simple and nonsensical, attempted to be dark and realistic but lacking any of the thought or logic the scenario demands. No character acts logically, no sequence of events plays out in a satisfying or meaningful way. On a technical and thematic level the movie is an abject failure, and it did nothing to grow or improve the franchise. Every plot or lore aspect it created was forgotten or retconned, and it is almost entirely possible to skip it whilst watching the first five movies due to just how little it establishes. (You’d only be left wondering who Cade is, where these Autobots came from, and why Optimus is in space. But AOE so badly established these anyway it’s not like you’re missing any pertinent information. Even Megatron’s revival isn’t necessary since he’s not even Megatron in AOE, nor does he look or act the same way) The way AOE just starts with so little (actual) explanation of events, and the way TLK picks up in the fallout of DOTM’s conclusion, you’re left with few more questions starting straight from TLK than you are at the end of AOE.
     
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  4. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout A face you can trust! Really!

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    The whole point of AOE designs is to take AWAY from the idea these robots turn into vehicles.

    Crosshairs? Worst case of canon "shove most of it on the back" since Rhinox, which is hillarious given Sideswipe was a Corvette and did a FAR better job of alt. Mode integration with his design.

    Hound? As SPLIT mentioned, his kibble isn't even accurate to the vehicle he's supposed to become. And this I will admit is purely my opinion but those arms just...what exactly was the intention there? They look so out of place compared to the rest of the design.

    Drift? A Japanese themed robot that turns into a non-Japanese car AND A HELICOPTER SOMEHOW. Dropkick is a perfect example of how you do a car/helicopter triple changer right and not just arbitrarily say "oh, all you need to suggest a helicopter mode is the swords probably becoming the main rotors for this mode that never needed to exist in the first place because it sure as hell got forgotten in the sequel!"

    Call of the Primatives

    No, but he legit turned into an alligator at one point for some reason.

    Is it really that hard to have a discussion about the merits of brand identity with regards to the actual product having recognizable brand identity, without having to go into attacks on other people?

    I mean, the AoE designs simply did not give a damn about the fact these are alien ROBOTS any more than absolutely necessary. It's entirely possible to have a robot look like a stereotype human soldier without sacrificing kibble shape or inhuman anatomy. Look at the NEST Bludgeon voyager, he turns into a skeletal samurai just like the original pretender shell BUT this armor is made from tank panels, the sword hilt is the gun barrel, and he has tank treads hanging off everywhere.

    Or, DOTM Sentinel Prime - he's an excellent example of a transformer knight done properly. Big shoulder armor, sword-and-board weapons, he's even got a cape! But he doesn't sacrifice looking like an alien machine made of firetruck parts.
     
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  5. QLRformer

    QLRformer Seeker

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    The difference is sort of like if the bots had clothing and skin added to them. The trilogy designs have them look like they could actually move their limbs around and twist/contort them, while the kibble could fold over them in a satisfactory (not perfect) way. The designs for AOE onwards and the Bee film look like they decided to implement a nanotech that makes all the parts just melt away and jello-form at will.
     
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  6. Galvatross

    Galvatross Shrek = sOGREat! Veteran

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    Let me just say I agree with everything here, but...

    I would say that Age of Extinction is, like the Bayformers films in general, not this great, flawless, cinematic masterpiece...but it's much better than given credit for what it's trying to be: a fourth over-the-top live action Transformers movie in a series of over-the-top summer blockbusters. It certainly wasn't worse than the earlier films in terms of story, character, dialogue, etc. The concepts and characters weren't any more fleshed out in the other movies. It's silly that many fans pretend there's this huge gulf in quality between the first three films on one hand and AoE on the other, when I would say that AoE was not a dip in quality whatsoever; I would say it was actually an improvement in some ways. Not by a huge margin, but it does some things better than any of the other movies, and most of the other aspects are of the same quality as its predecessors.

    Now this is a point I couldn't disagree more on. What is it based on?

    One, how is AoE a poor representation of what Transformers is?

    The Transformers are alien robots from Cybertron who think and feel? Check. If anything, the voice directing and acting and new designs in AoE eally underscore the "thinking and feeling" more than in its predecessors.

    Autobots and Decepticons in a war? Check. If anything, having Lockdown as opposed to a Decepticon as the main antagonist really brings a new facet to the Autobot-Decepticon war, as his worldview regarding the war as well as other species in the universe is one we had not seen before in the movies.

    Optimus Prime and Megatron/Galvatron as leaders of respective factions? Check. This has never been universal, as there have been many other leaders in both factions, but those are the most iconic.

    Over-the-top action sequences and humor? Check. Just like all of the other films.

    Transformations? Check. If anything, Transformium is the best explanation in the brand's history as to what Transformers are made of, and it actually helps explain some aspects of alt mode scanning and transformation that would otherwise be more problematic.

    Second, what should Transformers be? Ask a dozen fans, and you might get a dozen different answers. Transformers is quite broad I feel, and AoE is no less an example of what Transformers can be than any other cartoon, comic, or film.

    I would say that while not every creative decision in AoE was great, I think it had a lot more decisions that were hits than misses. And far from being a worst case scenario, I think it was closer to being a best case, and I think it was better than an imaginary fan-pleasing fourth live action movie.

    Optimus Prime losing faith in humanity is a great route to go. The Autobots being an autonomous group of misfits who don't all like humans or each other is more interesting than the Autobots being members of N.E.S.T. Transformium and human-made Transformers. I think most of the film's creative decisions were more interesting than what came before...or after.

    I don't hate to say this, but since when has ANY Transformers story not had its share of nonsensical elements? Which of the other movies doesn't have nonsensical plot points and scenarios? 2007? RotF? I can't think of any. This is talking robots from Cybertron waging a war on Earth who can transform into basically anything they want. The most nonsensical things in AoE aren't any more nonsensical than the most nonsensical things in the other movies.

    If anything, I think AoE's story and universe are about as logical as I would expect a Transformers movie to be post-DotM, because it actually does follow DotM in a logical manner.

    I would say the robots and humans in AoE are characters whose traits make logical sense in the context of the post-DotM world the movie depicts. Nor did the characters in the other Bay movies act more logically.

    "Satisfying" is an entirely subjective way of describing a movie. I thought it was "satisfying" for what it was trying to be. It's just that what it was trying to be didn't fit the expectations of the fandom.

    Again, where is this great depth of theme Age of Extinction lacks compared to the other Transformers films?

    In fact, this is another example of something I would lean more toward the opposite. While not an all-time cinematic masterpiece, I find it to be the most thematically fascinating and richest of the Transformers films. Por ejemplo...

    Themes in the Transformers Films

    And that post doesn't even take into consideration of the "You gotta look at the junk and see the treasure" point that fits the films' robot and human protagonists.

    Except it did? Age of Extinction is the sequel in which the Bayverse grows the most. Literally no other of the sequels expand the universe of the Bay movies and concept of transformation as much as AoE.

    Plus, I think there were some things done better in AoE than in the other films.

    And how is that Age of Extinction's fault exactly? If a sequel does not follow up on something introduced in a predecessor, how is that the fault of the predecessor?

    But I'm glad you mentioned that, because one of the reasons I think it got such a bandwagon of hate was because The Last Knight ignored or minimized much of its lore. Had The Last Knight focused more on being a sequel to Age of Extinction rather than being a cinematic universe and making the Earth Unicron, I think the fandom would likely have a better opinion of AoE as well as TLK.

    Why should he? First trilogy Megatron was a Decepticon warlord declining in power. In AoE, he uses his position of weakness as a strength in an attempt to regain power. In AoE, he's reduced to being a decapitated head, and he uses the attempts of humans at building their own Transformers to gain a new body and new troops, and he uses the deception to get Prime captured and get the humans to pursue and attain the Seed.

    And that's the other problem with the hatred AoE receives (Not the constructive criticism, but the vitriolic, hyperbolic anger of some vocal fans). It's completely knee-jerk and bandwagon-ish and based on fan expectations and desires and NOT on what the movie is actually trying to do.

    People should be free to dislike AoE or any of the movies, just as people should be free like them. That said, whether one likes them or dislike AoE, there's a big difference between not liking it on one hand and the whole knee-jerk, bandwagon-ish fan attitude that likes to pretend AoE somehow was a film that could do no right and that ruined everything. Especially since many of the things people complained about in AoE were present in the other movies as well...and often in greater amounts, too.

    AoE isn't worse than what came before. It's just that it didn't fit the comfortable, nostalgic vision of fans for a fourth Transformers movie and took both pre-existing and Bay fans out of their comfort zones. Boo freaking hoo. And unfortunately, TLK ignored many of its threads and concepts. Transformers 5 could have, and should have, been the best movie in the franchise. Instead, the production ignored the gold mine of ideas from AoE and ended up making a film that pleased much fewer people worldwide. And if fans and critics alike had not reacted in such a negative, knee-jerk manner to the mere existence of AoE and its creative decisions, and instead had noted the "treasure" along with the "junk," then perhaps we would not have had a Transformers that was as scattershot as TLK.
     
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  7. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout A face you can trust! Really!

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    Dude, as SPLIT pointed out, none of the three new Autobots actually transform on screen. You're just told those guys can transform.

    NOTHING in AoE treats Transformation as a core factor in anything in its dumbass plot which is entirely built around the entirely asinine plot about Evil Frasier building the most pointless robots in history that if anything, the movies have proven are completely worthless against existing human weapon technology and the arctic. I mean, what advantage does making knock off Transformers even give, when you just turn them into stupid shit with no battlefield function like a semi-cab or a one-of-a-kind-prototype track car? And they'll just die pathetically anyway when a military force simply rolls out bigger weapons, if ROTF proved anything with that bombing run that took out like, 75% of the Decepticons. Additionally, AoE doesn't even address a problem so massive it was litterally the crux of ROTF itself - namely, you need Energon to power the Cybertronians. How the actual hell does KSI even power their transformium constructs? Funny how AoE doesn't mention that rather important-to-the-setting detail!

    And then Lockdown just further proves how inconsequential transformation is within AoE. His entire purpose is nothing more than to be the excuse to kill off 95% of the surviving cast easily, the reason the "ancient primes" just so happen to be around at all because they are so hilariously unrelated to the actual plot despite being all over the marketing material, and supposedly to dump exposition about what the fuck literally anything in the movie was about.

    Which comes down to "these assholes from space made metal from organics to make Cybertron and they want optimus back". You are not told why, you are not told who these assholes are, you are not told anything. Oh, and the fact they want Optimus just further makes everything more confusing because if they needed a Prime, they could have just picked up Sentinel who was entombed on the moon since like, 1969 when the Ark crashed there.

    Or, y'know, the "ancient primes" Lockdown had on his ship the entire goddamn time.

    We are not told why Optimus is specifically the one Lockdown wants, other than 'clear the chessboard' which means absolutely goddamn nothing. He also suddenly is now a knight in addition to being The (not so after all) Last Prime. Why is this so important?

    If you haven't noticed, the question "why" seems to pop up an awful lot in trying to define what the actual fuck was going on in AoE, both in terms of why it severely contradicted the previous three film which at least tried to have continuity with one another, and in terms of even explaining its own plot. And this is the core of why AoE is a bad film: shit just happens for no reason. You can't actually explain what the Creators wanted with Optimus, you can't explain why the Creators ever made Cybertron/Transformers in the first place, you can't explain what legitamate advantage the KSI bots would have had that made the whole operation even viable in the first place. And the film tries to hide all of that under a laticework of utter bullshit in an attempt to appear complex when really, it's just a bunch of ideas that don't really work. It's the same thought process that ultimately produced TLK: it was shit that looked cool and the idea of actually providing narrative support for all of it was ignored.

    Just for comparison, I saw Hobbs and Shaw recently and despite that plot being stupid to the point of self-awareness (which is why it's great), you never had to actually guess why anything was even happening. Idris Elba's character even outright just explains that the bad guys are actually trying to save the human race by forcing human evolution, and to do that they decided killing off all the weak humans through a super virus was the best way to do it.

    Bam. No stupid side details, no lengthy backstory bullshit having to explain anything, and yet it's actually clear and understandable. Not like AoE, which boils down to just "Because Creators!" without ever explaining why they ever did anything.

    And that is why the AoE designs, with Prime in particular, are shit. They are evident of the greater complete lack of care when it came to developing the film, because let's face it - AoE was just a shitty soft reboot Paramount wanted to use to break into the Chinese box office and more humanoid designs were way cheaper to develop than actual mechanical feeling robots. THAT is the true plot of AoE.
     
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  8. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP AKA Beve Stuscemi

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    The problem is more on a technical level. Presentation-wise, AOE is just a fucking headache. (not as bad as TLK, but it's really obvious how things started to fall apart post-DOTM) The actual scenes, dialogue, and pacing are just horrible, and between the new designs, the cinematography, and the colour palette of the film, it's just ugly to look at.

    Because it is terrible at selling the concept of Transformers. Everything is so terrible, so botched in execution it would honestly make any casual moviegoer who's never heard of the brand wonder just how the hell it got so popular.

    Debatable, given how they apparently can't think beyond the next ten seconds of their lives, and don't feel anything but rage, spite and an impulse to kill. I liek to think even the worst TF shows tend to have a bit more nuance to the characters besides "aggressive killing machines."

    No, not check. So not check. There's no Decepticons in AOE, just a Decepticon, and he has barely any presence or purpose in the film. The rest are generic drones with no will or sentience, they neither think nor feel.

    If you seriously have to use this to bolster AOE's credibility, you're pretty screwed argument-wise.

    No, not check. The action isn't "over-the-top," it's just messy and boring to watch. The humour also isn't funny, unless you think talking about statutory rape laws is funny.

    Half the main cast literally never transform on screen.

    No, it doesn't, it's what I like to call "give-up-ium." It's not an explanation, it's an excuse to not give an explanation.

    This is a flat-out lie. Nobody acts logical. Especially in the times this movie came out, the idea that humanity would be xenophobically united against the aliens, regardless of factions, when the Autobots are the only reason humanity is still around is lunacy. There would be countless special interest groups, media events and online movements about "defending the robots' rights." Just look at what is championed in modern politics (not comparing anything here, just so we're clear, I know the "P" word scares people) and then tell me with a straight face racism (because that's what it is, an alien race being subjugated by hate and prejudice) perpetrated by the government would ever fly. I don't care how many people died in Chicago, humans are not that stupid. They just aren't, and we have evidence that they aren't. Horrible acts are committed by people all the time, and no where does the media or the government declare war against nationalities overall. That's just not how society works.

    Now I know what you're gonna say, "well AOE makes it ambiguous if the US President is even aware of Cemetary Wind's actions." That just makes it worse. No way would a government organization with that funding and autonomy not have someone checking on them. And even if CW did manage to somehow wage war on aliens without a single fucking person ever noticing they were killing Earth's heroes, there's one more problem: the UN.

    Optimus is an idiot. At no point does he think to just drive up to the Whitehouse, or make a public statement after the attacks on Autobots begin, or make a beeline for a foreign embassy to make his plight known. Instead he tells them to go into hiding? So he wants them to be hunted down and picked off one by one? With their communicative abilities, upon seeing Autobots attacked by human military, this is what Optimus should've done:

    "People of Earth, I am Optimus Prime, leader of the Autobots. It is with great disdain that I must inform you of a terrible injustice: my people are being slaughtered, and your Government is responsible. I have personally witnessed my own kind murdered without mercy, gunned down as though we were prey by predators. We risked our lives in service of your world, and have saved it from evil time and again, and this is how we are repaid? I cannot believe in my spark that this is humanity's wish. I know for a fact humanity would not be so hateful, so blinded by rage, because these killings are perpetuated by lies. The ones being slaughtered are my fellow Autobots, not Decepticons. You have been murdering your own protectors. I send this message to any nation out there willing to see reason. You have suffered greatly at the hands of your fellow man, blinded by what you see as difference, and yet you eventually come to see how wrong such hateful views are. I know you will see this is wrong as well, humans are a compassionate species, I have witnessed that time and again. Do not let my people suffer at the hands of a few individuals, help us find sanctuary."

    But no, Optimus is a dummy who's about as diplomatic as a microwave.

    Transformers has inconsistent elements, but those elements are not usually the whole story.

    Because he's fucking Megatron? Why the hell put him in the movie if he's not going to look, act, or be in any way similar to his previous iterations? Why is he even Megatron again? Why was TLK even made if it has no story?

    I'm at work so this is the most I can talk about for another hour or so, but these are the main points I wanted to talk about, mostly the Optimus being a fucking gormless turd and getting all his men killed by incompetence.
     
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  9. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout A face you can trust! Really!

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    I've said this countless times so it's refreshing to see that I'm not actually the only one who understands that Prime and the Autobots simply driving to the UN and making a case for his people, citing the fact they saved humanity's ass three times after humanity sold them the fuck out TWICE, would completely end the plot of the film.

    Another thing I like in how outrageously unrealistic it is, is the idea that Chicago remains a complete wasteland despite being a crucial financial and trade center for the entire US Economy. Companies would fucking love to sink money into a leveled Chicago and rebuild it from the ground up - you know, literally the plot of Robocop in OCP wanting to essentially rebuild Detroit into Delta City by first making it a complete shithole so they can legally buy the entire city for pennies. The US Military would have all the alien shit excavated and probably hauled off to Area 51 for examination.
     
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  10. zark225

    zark225 The Day Fukr

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    Well Drift does transform in AOE. It’s into his helicopter form but it still counts and it happens twice. It does suck that Hound and Crosshairs never got onscreen transformations in AOE though.
     
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  11. Not Blitzwing

    Not Blitzwing Member

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    Excellent posts as always.
     
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  12. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP AKA Beve Stuscemi

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    It's like Michael Bay put literally the bare minimum thought into it just so that he could make the movie as quickly as possible.

    AOE is such a "just get it over with" movie I'm surprised it even got made. I actually would've really liked a more political movie where Prime has to try and find political refuge, like instead of this stupid nebulous plot with Lockdown and Galvatron, make the plot him trying to get to the UN/foreign embassy with his Autobots whilst trying to void Lockdown and CW hunting them, both sides having to stay low-key, the Autobots coming across humans who support them and humans that hate them. That could be really interesting.

    But no, Michael Bay either can't or won't put that much thought and effort into depicting the Transformers as characters. The whole bullshit of "oh Optimus lost faith in humanity and he got it back" is such a basic bitch plot. People laud that as some kind of "character arc" but it isn't. Optimus hates humans (for stupid reasons) then one pep talk from Cade and then it's magically "resolved." It's almost as insultingly basic and unsatisfying as Joshua massacring, mutilating and mulching living, sapient beings to make product, and one: somehow manages to argue his actions successfully to Optimus Prime, and two: gets off with nary a slap on the wrist. This is not a plot, this is stupidity.

    A plot would be Optimus struggling to maintain his faith in humanity, and entering a sort of self-reflective hesitation about his choices. Because AOE chose to start us in the middle of Optimus' arc, the impetus for his loss of faith is told, not shown. Because of that we don't see him transition to this broken state, which makes his arc even weaker than it was. Plus all the Autobots are one-note, violent jackasses who follow Optimus blindly, almost zealously. In the scenario I describe above, with them on the run seeking refuge from the UN or other governments, you could have Optimus' own troops begin to question his authority. Create conflict beyond just guns and murder, create interpersonal dilemmas, this is like writing 101. How are we supposed to identify the Transformers as "thinking and feeling" machines if they just run on automatic at all times?

    That's how AOE fails to represent the brand: Te Transformers do not act like real people. They act like tools, single-minded, built and focused solely on their task. They fight and kill and never question their programming, in this case Optimus' word, and Optimus in turn is guided merely by impulse. He responds like an animal, or a child. He's reactionary, and his considerations are short-term and self-destructive. Because he chose to hide he ironically got his Autobots killed, because he doesn't think. And his emotions are always erradic and unpredictable, because he doesn't truly feel. He merely does what the plot wants. So no, Galvatross, this:

    Is completely false. They do not think because they have no agency, and they do not feel because their emotions are superficial and never actually guide their actions. The Autobots in AOE are introduced as hateful, volatile goons ready to kill on site, frustrated and distrustful of humanity. Yet they instantly accept Cade and company on Optimus' word, who instantly trusts them because Cade showed him kindness, and despite this this overwhelming hate and anger towards humans (the point where they cheer when Optimus swears bloody vengeance on the human responsible) not a single one goes against Prime's orders to not kill in the laboratory and leave. Not a single one objects to being put in peril to continue to save the humans. (well, Crosshairs does, but then is forced at gunpoint by Hound under threat of death. How heroic)

    You've got these new Autobot characters tailor-made for inner conflict among the heroes, but they have no function within the plot ad no arc of their own. They don't do anything, they're just their for action scenes and bad dialogue. They're lifeless tools. That's not only a failure to represent the brand, it's failure to movie making.

    Ironically, you're absolutely right about that first part. They are alien robots, but not because they're from Cybertron.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
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  13. Galvatross

    Galvatross Shrek = sOGREat! Veteran

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    Again, it's like you don't even watch the movie. Crosshairs and Hound don't, but Drift does.

    Except Transformium is a Shrek-sploration of transformation. It's actually one of the few honest attempts at exploring what Transformers are made of in the brand's history, and for that alone it is admirable, let alone the fact that many issues related to scanning and alt mode adaptation are solved by the Shrek-xistence of Transformium in AoE. The changing of colors, for instance, the seamlessness of their adapted alt modes, as well as how Transformers are able to incorporate Earthly textures in their alt modes and adapt their internal robot engineering to their alternate modes. It's pretty damn Shrektastic if you actually open your mind and heart to its programmable, metallic love!

    1. The purpose of Transformium is that it is a programmable metal. You can program to both transform into whatever you want it to, AND you can give such machines instructions on what you want it to do in a way you can't do with real life terrestrial metals.

    2. One of the points of the KSI plot is that, the humans, in their hubris, merely thought they were making robots that were better. The KSI drones (other than Galvatron, who is autonomous anyway) being inferior to Cybertronians is kind of the fucking point! "I hate cheap knockoffs" indeed!

    Which literally doesn't happen in AoE, if any human military is what you're talking about.

    Because there is not a single instance in AoE where a Transformer was entirely killed by human weapons. Ratchet and probably the other dead Autobots were killed by the combined efforts of Lockdown and Cemetery Wind. The KSI drones are killed by either the Dinobots, Autobots, or Cade's alien gun. Lockdown was killed by Optimus Prime. It's actually the first live action film where NONE of the robots are killed entirely by human firearms.

    LoL what? He transforms just like most of the other Transformers. You have zero point here.

    Except it isn't.

    He also hunts and captures Prime, which is kind of an important part of the story. He also gives us a worldview we had not seen in the films before.

    First off, they're not "ancient Primes."

    Second, and more importantly, their function was the cavalry, and at that they were successful. There was never anything, NOTHING, in anything posted by Bay or Paramount or shown in the trailers to suggest that they were the main focus of the plot. If you thought the Dinobots were ever going to be the focus in terms of plot and character, that's on you.

    You have no idea what you're talking about, as always.

    Go back to the 2007 film. We're never told where the Allspark came from; who built it and brought it to Cybertron are never made clear. We don't know how it was brought to Earth or who brought it or jettisoned it from Cybertron. It just ….somehow...was lost and got to Earth. It brings machines to life.

    I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that either, but if anything, the Creators and the Seeds have more purpose, so it's kind of hypocritical to single out AoE in this regard.

    We know the Creators, with purpose mind you, cyberformed Earth and many other planets with Seeds sixty five million years ago to create transforming machines that they built to be slaves. We see them turning dinosaurs and other life into Transformium, and we see them harvesting Transformium as a psittacosaur looks on. We know Lockdown has one in the present day, and that Galvatron manipulated the humans into attaining it. We see Lockdown gift the humans the Seed.

    Consequently, we know the Seeds millions of years ago weren't McGuffins that randomly found their way on Earth. We know how they got to Earth, both in the past and in the present. Compare that to the Allspark...where it's entirely a mystery as to how it got to Earth.

    FFS, those are not "Ancient Primes." It's like the most delusional and vitriolic complainers don't even watch the movies they complain about.

    He's a bounty hunter, and Optimus Prime was who his employers wanted. It's not that hard to understand.

    Because you and many others have a closed mind that automatically had a knee-jerk reaction to the existence of a post-DotM film set in the Bay universe, and you only wanted a film that fit your narrow vision of what Transformers can and should be.

    Shrek-splained above, although I feel I am merely wasting my words on people who are too stubborn and close-minded to understand them.

    AoE was not a "soft reboot." It was merely a sequel with a mostly new cast and went in a new direction. That's it.



    And you see, I think the opposite. I prefer the bright color palette of AoE over the grey scenery of DotM. And I really like DotM, but I like AoE, because of how bright and colorful it is.

    I think the hatred comes more from the fact that it isn't familiar or comfortable for many fans, because the difference in quality of execution from, say, DotM to AoE is trivial or nonexistent. If it had been more comfortable and featured more familiar faces, many of the same people who rip it to shreds would be singing its praises, or at least like it more.

    Bullshit, as are most of the posts from you and Autobot Burnout. It's like you guys don't watch the movie. Do the KSI Transformers serve as troops for Galvatron? And Galvatron is "Megatron reincarnated?" Then that makes them Decepticons. Decepticons have used drones in their ranks since G1.

    Besides, Galvatron arguably drives more of the plot forward in AoE in an active manner than Megatron does in any of first three films. In 2007, Megatron is frozen most of the time and just a victim of fate. Not that there's anything wrong with that. In AoE, Megatron uses KSI's activities as an opportunity to manipulate the humans into making him a new body, getting him the Seed, and getting him new troops. Megatron fed the humans the basic science of Transformium, so they could build their own Transformers. He does this while they think he's just a decapitated, lifeless head, and he uses that as an opportunity to infect the Galvatron prototype. He then feigns being a drone and fights Prime, which allows the Autobot leader to get captured Lockdown, which in turn results in the Seed deal. Galvatron then gets sent to China and activates by himself and takes over the remaining KSI Transformers, and his troops almost ogre-whelm the Autobots and get Seed, were it not for the fact the remaining Autobots arrive on dragonesque, Dinobot Seeds, which decimate Galvatron's troop.

    So no, even if Lockdown is the main antagonist, Galvatron doesn't just barely register. He plays a HUGE role in driving the movie forward and setting events in motion.

    Listen here. I have used mountains of fucking evidence in support of my opinions. You don't have to agree, but please don't spout crap like, "You're screwed argument-wise."

    Let's just say the main cast is the five main Autobots, Lockdown, and Galvatron. Of those, five of those robots transform on screen. That doesn't even include the Dinobots and Ratchet, who all transform. So way to over-exaggerate to promote your bullshit.

    No, it doesn't, it's what I like to call "give-up-ium." It's not an explanation, it's an excuse to not give an explanation.[/QUOTE]

    If we are told Transformium is a programmable, molecularly unstable metal that can be programmed to both transform and be given instructions on what to do, and we see the Transformium move around and break up, and we see that the KSI Transformers transform when commanded, and we see they can program Transformium to move around in certain ways, and it can be programmed to change color, you can't just say bullshit like "It's an excuse not to give an explanation." They literally show Transformium doing these things!

    This is not an accusation you want to make. I am honest to a fault, and I am, in all likelihood, more honest than you and Autobot Burnout, although I will also presume innocence in this regard, in which case it seems you guys just don't know what you're talking about and don't have a very good memory regarding many things.

    You are completely wrong. Drop it.

    Except that's not what happened? Elements within humanity were xenophobic. A black ops, rogue CIA faction were the people who covertly hunted the Autobots and covertly made an alliance turned against the Transformers.

    And again, there are many instances of governments and nations being xenophobic, even in irrational circumstances, so there's plenty of real life precedence.

    Yes, they really, really are. Never underestimate the stupidity of some humans. Not all, but there are enough of them that don't think things through that it creates problems for most everyone else.

    You can't be serious. Hitler. The Young Turks. There are countless instances in human history of governments committing or allowing atrocities and promoting propaganda against specific demographics. If they can do it to other humans, they can do it to other species, including alien species with biology that don't resemble ours in any way, shape or form.

    FFS, it doesn't make it ambiguous. It makes it clear.

    LoL. You can't be serious. If you think that would definitively do jack squat, you are living in a fantasy world so fucking deep, you might as well be in a proverbial black hole.

    During recent decades, there have been genocides in Rwanda, Darfur, and under the reign of ISIS in Iraq and Syria. Uygurs, and large numbers of them, have been put in camps in China. There's North Korea. And so on. That doesn't even include the mutual conflicts around the world. The U.N. has not been effective at preventing genocides and similar atrocities, whatsoever.

    For fuck sake, he was in no condition to "drive to the White House." He barely escaped from Mexico City and barely made it to the movie theater in Texas. So congratulations on having zero point here.

    Optimus is also not an idiot. He's an alien being with mental capacities likely far beyond any human being alive.

    You have no idea what you're talking about regarding almost anything. He specifically told them "Cease all contact with humans." He never said to split up if they were together; there's ZERO indication they were already together when they were being hunted.

    In fact, the opposite happens. Optimus gets fixed by Cade. They escape the property and … gasp...meet up with the other free and surviving Autobots in the canyons of the Southwest.
    It's like you don't even watch the movie, and just repeat the same baseless, insipid statements of people who probably don't even watch the movies.

    Megatron's mind in a new body. A body that lacks a Spark. He was a little more crazed. He used deception to feign being a drone to try and get what he wanted. Those things should result in a robot acting a little differently.

    Which he does. The feigning being a drone, and Galvatron grabbing Prime's sword as the latter stabs him in his chest, and declaring that he has no fear as a result are all things a robot with Megatron's mind in a new, Sparkless body might do. And at the same time, he's still similar in many ways to Megatron. His desire to destroy humanity and gain new troops is perfectly consistent with the Megatron we see in the previous films.


    They were ambushed one-by-one. If you get ambushed, you are probably not aware it's going to happen beforehand.

    I think he puts more thought and effort than just about any ideas. I also think he understands Transformers more than a large majority of the fandom.

    It wasn't just the pep talk; it was something that had been building since early in the movie. At first, Optimus, having awakened in Cade's barn after having been previously ambushed, threatened Cade and company. Cade introduces himself and explains how he helped him. Optimus is still distressed over what has been happening. He wants to reach his Autobots, so they can repair them. Optimus is in no condition to get far at all, so Cade repairs him. Optimus even asks why Cade is willing to help him. From there, their adventure continues

    But they don't? The AoE Autobots did not all just get along. Quite the opposite. In fact, their disagreements and drama were actually due to their differences.

    Why should they? Why should alien robots from another planet act just like real people? Thank you for describing a good aspect about the movies: that the Transformers, even the ones who look human, still don't act 100% like real people. And yet, they still are similar enough to people to have some human qualities. That's not a bad thing. That's a good thing. Their worldviews, when revealed, are those of alien beings, as they should be.

    If he was entirely guided by impulse, he wouldn't indicate to Hound at KSI not to kill Joshua, and he wouldn't have warmed up to Cade.


    "Doesn't think" possibly describes some of the posts in this thread I'm responding to.

    Excuse me, but what? Do you realize that emotions usually are erratic and unpredictable? That's why we shouldn't make judgments on "feelings," but on facts.

    Which sounds to me like "thinking and feeling beings."

    And why should they not be? Look at all of the things humanity has done both in the movies and in real life. That's not a species I would trust.

    Most of them respect Optimus Prime. It's no different than other movies where military or security forces think someone is a threat, and then a leader tells them to hold their fire.

    Because Hound, even though he likes to kill things, still respects Optimus. I think it's admirable that Prime shows some restraint, and that Hound actually listens despite his own preferences.

    Hound enjoyed being battle and enjoyed fighting, and at that point in the movie he was defending the Yeagers, who were allies, even if he still didn't really like all humans. He still wasn't too fond of Joshua Joyce, for instance. Drift was an honorable warrior archetype. Being a warrior implies war and fighting.

    Which is one of many instances that shows that the AoE Autobots are not just these "assholes," but distinct from each other in personality.

    Excuse me, but where the heck are these great depictions of the Autobots that do so much more in the other movies? Who are these great Autobots who were so much more fleshed out and did so much more? The 2007 Autobots? The Twins? Sideswipe? Dino? I can't think of any. None.

    If anything, the supporting in Autobots in AoE have more to them as characters than the earlier supporting Autobots.

    You also realize that action is doing something? Because Drift and Bumblebee together rescue Cade. Bumblebee sneaks into KSI and knocks down the Stinger prototype. The Autobots get aboard Lockdown's ship to rescue Optimus and Tessa. Crosshairs rescues Bumblebee after the latter saves the Yeagers, and he teaches them how to fire the OAC's guns.

    I think the AoE Autobots are full of life and personality. "Lifeless tools" better describes some members of this fandom.

    What does this even mean without further context?
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2020
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  14. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout A face you can trust! Really!

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    And that changes anything...how? If anything, that just makes the film even dumber because now you're saying the film didn't even bother giving transformation to everybody new, just Drift for whatever reason.

    The first film at least had the decency to give us the arrival sequence where everybody transformed.

    No, dude, it's stupid as fuck. I mean, "Transformium" isn't even a scientific sounding term, it sounds like something a five year old would use to describe play-doh. If it was an actual, serious attempt at describing the material, it would be something involving latin words.

    Hell, they should have just straight up used the word "Unobtainium" because that term was coined specifically for shit like Transformium.

    And is that actually in official material or did you just make that shit up on the spot? It's been six years since I saw Age of Excrement, but I'm thinking the latter.

    Okay, how? Do they just plug in USB cables and download instructions like you would update iTunes on your smartphone? Because the way electronics work is that they leave the factory with software that enables them to interact with other components and to recognize installing new software, like how you would first have to install an operating system externally in order to get anywhere.

    The problem with simply waving away how the hell they manipulate Transformium is that its just "programable material" is that they don't explain how exactly they program it. Are you a computer programmer? Because I am, and in order to create shit that computers can read, you need an understanding of the programming language (Java, C#, COBOL, stuff like that) or even machine level languages like Assembler for an even more rudimentary, direct instruction manipulation.

    As the first film clearly laid out, the kind of code the Transformers use borders on quantum mechanics given what the government hacker girl was saying. Or, in other words, literally everybody working at KSI would have had to have brains on the level of Steven Fucking Hawking to comprehend quantum physics.

    That doesn't answer the question, though.

    Why would anybody intelligent look at a robot that's been defeated by extreme temperatures, conventional human weaponry, and generally requires alien, near non-existent energy sources to power...and think sinking the money into something so goddamn dumb is better then just investing in, I dunno, a rocket launcher and some heat seeking missiles?

    I mean, the A-10 Warthog is pretty much a unholy terror of ground warfare with missiles, the GAU-8 Avenger gattling gun, and its pretty much goddamn near indestructible.

    And a new one of those? Probably a hell of a lot cheaper than that Stinger and his useless supercar mode.

    You mean AoE didn't do something that would hilariously shut down the plot before they got to the big shootout at the end? What a surprise!

    Did you even SEE the previous three films? Because now you legitimately refuse to acknowledge AoE is in continuity with films that clearly showed human weapons being enough to kill Cybertronians.

    I wasn't talking about Lockdown's transformation, I was talking about how his entire purpose in the film is completely unrelated to the concept. He's not even there about shit involving the civil war!

    A world view that literally nobody gave a damn about because who cares? He's a massive hypocrite because as a bounty hunter, the war should be GOOD for business (which is the exact view point the previous two Lockdowns had in Animated and IDW G1). And it isn't like there are a whole lot of alien races - humans, Cybertronians, "Creators"...that's it. And he's the villain anyway helping perpetuate the conflict he supposedly hates since it's his fault the Decepticons are still around by giving Transformium to KSI.

    Okay, fine, I checked - they aren't primes, they're "legendary warriors".

    So legendary nobody fucking heard of them, apparently.

    We have a film, about metal made from dinosaurs, but that's not at all related to the robots made from that metal who turn into dinosaurs.

    Like, what's the point of having two, completely unrelated aspects of the film involving dinosaurs?

    The supplementary material showed it was launched from Cybertron by Bumblebee as a last ditch maneuver to keep it out of Megatron's hands.

    More purpose? To do what?

    ...so they're the Quintessons straight up and ceiling them "Creators" was a cheap move to try and be mysterious when in reality everybody figured that shit out before the film even was released?

    Supplementary material had the AllSpark end up heading to Earth because it locked onto the location of the Solar Harvester (read: the recharging port of the AllSpark).

    That's just answering a question with a question, because it just makes the question what did they want with him?

    You wanna run that by me again?

    And yet you've done this same schtick for the past six years, saying the same exact stuff, expecting a different result.

    ...that's the definition of a soft reboot.

    And it's funny how you're still going on and on about everything EXCEPT the designs in Age of Extinction, which supposedly is what this thread was originally about before you decided to go on yet another text wall rant about how AoE is somehow better simply because you say it's better and not, y'know, provably a half-assed piece of shit Paramount crapped out after three years to milk that Chinese movie market money.
     
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  15. zark225

    zark225 The Day Fukr

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    The hate on the name “Transformium” is dumb. The name is even called out:

    “Transformium. That’s what we’re calling it.”

    “Focus grouped, catchy, trademarked.”

    It’s supposed to be a silly corporate name. That’s been flying over people’s heads for almost 6 years.
     
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  16. Nathanoraptor

    Nathanoraptor Well-Known Member

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    The name "Transformium" sounds stupid because it is meant to be - it's a focus-grouped corporate name that KSI came up with. The only characters who use the name Transformium are Joyce and KSI - the people who came up with it. Neither the Autobots, Attinger or Lockdown ever call it that.
     
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  17. electronic456

    electronic456 Well-Known Member

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    12 pages in, I can't be bothered to discuss whatever the heck is going on anymore. Think maybe the thread deserves to be locked down because clearly I think everyone has a general idea on where everyone is coming from.

    To summarise:

    'Bumblebee's designs aren't that different from AOE.', Okay that's the thread topic.

    I personally agree and whether you prefer one over the other, that's fine. Just say what you need to say.

    However, when you start debating about preferences it's going to be risky. Arguing is an ugly and hard business by the way, I think everyone would agree here.

    And now I'm lost with what's happening...

    To quote a certain movie:
    “Everybody just yells and screams at each other. Nobody’s civil anymore. Nobody thinks what it’s like to be the other guy.”
     
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  18. Galvatross

    Galvatross Shrek = sOGREat! Veteran

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    Most new robots still got transformations. Lockdown, Drift, the four Dinobots, and the KSI robots.

    Now what I really want is a full transformation of the Stupid Drones!


    Unobtanium is no more scientific than Transformium. Neither is Cybertronium from G1 a better name. They're ALL silly names.

    In fact, a lot of elements, have "-ium" suffixes. Plutonium, Helium, and so on.

    I didn't make it up, but it's the truth based on what we see. When Joyce and company are giving the Transformium instructions, we see it change color as it "dances." That color change is a result of programming. We also see Bee change his colors in an instant. Given that both are made of the same, programmable metal, it's obvious Transformium and the way its molecules move enable it to reflect light in certain ways, and consequently change colors. It's not "making shit up on the spot." It's using dialogue and visuals from the movies to make an obvious conclusion.

    Yes, they use technology to give their robots commands. We see people using screens at KSI to instruct Transformium and robots. I wouldn't expect a Transformers movie...or any soft sci fi, big budget blockbuster franchise film...to go into the depths of computer programming. I honestly don't know what your expectations are here.

    Not to mention, AoE itself acknowledges the leap in technology Transformium and its uses by KSI represent.


    But it does? Not everything is about just military strength. Some times, it's about building a figurative robotic Swiss army knife that can do multiple tasks!

    And yeah, I'm sure Stinger was expensive, but so is a lot of new technology, so who cares?

    Not my point. My point was that isn't what happened in AoE.

    Except he was partially driven by cleaning up the mess left by the Autobot-Decepticon war?

    Because there are jobs that don't involve the war? it's a big freaking universe.

    "Every galaxy I've traveled, all you species are the same. You all think you're the center of the universe."

    Not to mention, there are many different aliens he has in ship, both as prisoners and as crew.

    Which he was completely unaware of. That's what makes Galvatron so cool. He plays just about everyone...including Lockdown!

    No, but they were a legend. Prime says, "The legend exists." He knew of them, but he wasn't certain they existed.

    If you're going to play that game, what's the point of having multiple, unrelated aspects regarding, humans, which are a single species lasting a few hundred thousand years? Dinosaurs included thousands and thousands of species that lasted from the Triassic, in the aftermath of the "Great Dying," to the end-Maastrichtian mass extinction, and into the modern era as birds. Dinosaurs were ubiquitous on Earth's land masses and still are ubiquitous. Consequently, it's quite likely to have two things related to dinosaurs that are otherwise unrelated!

    The average moviegoer would not know that at all.

    "Quintessons" is a name nobody not familiar with the brand would recognize. "Creators" instantly tells them their role and their purpose, regardless of pre-existing familiarity.

    And the average person watching the film knew that?

    If you think AoE should have had more comics associated with it, that is fair enough. But it didn't, and I'm only going by what's in the film itself.

    I don't expect to change minds. I just want to explain my reasoning and present an alternate, yet well supported, point of view that is my genuine opinion. You can keep your opinions, but it also seems like you get legitimately angry that others, like myself, might not share your opinions. I love AoE. I love the other films for the most part. I love G1. I love Beast Machines. I don't care about the UT, either RiD, or Prime, but if others like them and see things in them I don't, that's fine.

    If that's the case, then a lot more Transformers media would be "soft reboots."

    You have a very odd standard of proof. You can't "prove" that a movie is "good" or "bad." You can only have an opinion about whether it's good or bad, and then use evidence to support your opinion. I have a different opinion than yours. I use plenty of evidence to support my opinion. But you can't "prove" a movie is good or bad in the same sense you can prove more objective things.
     
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  19. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout A face you can trust! Really!

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    You mean something meant to sound stupid was lost in a film that's entirely full of actually stupid things?

    I mean, I can't possibly see how that could 'fly over people's heads' given THAT logic. [/sarcasm]
     
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  20. zark225

    zark225 The Day Fukr

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    You literally just argued the scientific inaccuracies of the name. Don’t come at us when this “stupid” movie apparently outsmarted you. I’ll give a slight pass since you said it’s been a few years since you’ve seen AOE but, again, it helps to know what you’re talking about.
     
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