Ok, weird question. How tall should the Combiners be?

I ask because we've seen their size and height change over the years, something even within the series, and I'm wondering how tall do you prefer them. Not talking about resizing powers or animation mistakes or artistic liberties. I mean, do you like the Combiners maybe 3 to 4 times bigger then Optimus Prime and Megatron or do they need to tower over buildings like King Kong and Godzilla? Maybe that's a bit extreme but you get the idea.

I remember seeing Menasor in a UK TF issue and he wasn't that big but still big enough to be a threat. I did like that one image when Dreamwave was doing TF comics and Predaking was bigger than Superion and Defensor. And speaking of DW, if I remember correctly, they had Devastator and Superion super sized. And Devastator was massive in Transformers Devastation!

For me, a Combiner team doesn't have to increase in size when they combine, not by a lot anyway. I like the idea of various sizes, like how they were with some of the toys. So tall do you like your Combiners?

 

For me, as close as they can be in regards to their alt modes. Concentrating on the toys, I go with:

So most of my combiners are different sizes. I went with what is available that fits a proper scale as much as possible.

This results is many being titan class (like CW Devastator (or Jinbao) as construction vehicles are much larger than cars), and this fits perfectly with Omega Supreme (Siege titan), same with Superion (JJ-02) with the jets at Voyager size, Volcanicus also huge as the Dinobots need to be much larger than cars (G-Creation), Abominus should have it's members larger than deluxes (so the OSKO), Predaking needs to be crazy frightening (Jinbao) as fierce predators should be, with Menasor (CW) being the small one as it is cars after all. So a few others follow this approach.

It really adds a wicked dynamic and a more complex take on the concept and the impact it has as it changes their strength and capacity and aren't just boring equalized confrontations.

 

I would make Monstructor at or just under the size of Supreme (especially if you take his TFWiki description at face value), and the TFWiki image of his appearance in Regeneration One shows him at around Supreme's size.

 

I believe they should contrast to their components' alt modes.

Realistically, Menasor is one of the shortest if you look at his components. Motormaster (cab being 22 feet long and trailer being 53 feet long) is likely 40 feet tall with his alt mode in mind. His brothers are about fourteen feet tall each. Add fourteen feet to Motormaster’s 40 or so foot tall height and that means Menasor would likely at max be sixty feet tall?

Silverbolt's 202 foot long Concorde should make Superion one of the tallest, without even looking at how the rest of his team range from fifty to sixty foot long alt modes. With some size compression in regards, Superion is huge.

Devastator should be as well, due to the overall size and heft of construction vehicles his six components make up.

Defensor is likely shorter as well, with having a car and motorcycle as his legs, but he has a large torso component, so has added height there.

I'm a stickler for writing the Cybertronians sizes based around their alt mode and that translates to the combiners as well.

 

The one thing that I tend to consider is that the bigger they are, the slower they can move, with mass and all logical aspect thrown in. So more power usage, while strength and armour ends up needing to be increased to handle the extra mass, etc. on top of the type of robot/alt mode.

A big impact between a combiner and an actual Titan is while the Titan will be larger, the built design of the articulation and weight distribution is radically different as combiners has to take into account the assembly itself of the connection points and that the articulation is usually linked to the smaller individuals constructs.

 

I've considered this as well. On the one hand, it'd be good if the combiner scaled to their alt-modes, so something with Menasor being only about two to three times the height of Optimus Prime, for example. But on the other, in that case why bother with the combination? Wouldn't a super mode like Star Saber or Armada Optimus be more efficient, then?

I remember that something that comes up quite a bit in discussions about Transformers vs humans is the idea that due to having to rely on converted fuels, Transformers are often not operating at their peak strength. I also recall something similar in IDW, where one reason Megatron adopted his gun mode was because Ore-13 actually gave him the energy to mass-shift (implying that otherwise it was so energy intensive that by the time we encounter the Transformers, it just isn't viable anymore). So I'd personally make use of that idea.

What I mean is that if the combiner team is at full strength, then as part of the combination process they actually undergo mass-shifting to grow maybe 5 times bigger than an average Transformers (be this a Datsun-type like Prowl and Bluestreak, or a Seeker-type like Starscream). In addition, as part of the combination the smaller members shift to match the other limbs. I might make this some sort of "X factor" as to why not every Transformer can be part of a combiner, sort of how you could put another person's organs inside someone, but there's always the risk of rejection.

 

As tall as the toys are compared to other toys, because mass shifting is stupid.

 

I will never see "mass shifting" as anything else that's based on fictional magic. It's a fictional plot device with no logic outside of making things fit for whatever reasons that a lazy writer will do. I can easily go with a factual take that Blastoff isn't a full size shuttle but just a smallish mimic and that removes the conflict of his size easily.

But as you place a combiner next to any other figure, even if it's barely double the size, the impact of it is still fair to consider it like a child against an adult, the difference in strength and the height is fairly unbalanced. Even a weak adult can grab a child and sit him down without effort.

But at the same time, having a small combiner against a very tall "super mode" adds a dynamic, considering that "super modes" are very rare (Optimus and Ultra Magnus being the main two).

The whole magic power thing is another thing that just doesn't work.. more magic and nothing else. It's not putting rocket fuel in my car that it can magically fly... Put nuclear power in an excavator doesn't make the pistons of the arm suddenly able to lift a mountain. Parts are parts, they have a set limit of strength and capacity before they simply snap and break.

I understand that your view is based of fiction (and that's absolutely fine)... Just saying that mine isn't... I like the challenges that reality would bring as the fictional stuff ends up being nothing more than a bunch of plot devices, Deus ex machina, MacGuffins, etc. that gets usually a single use and then goes forgotten.

 

I like to use IDW logic and say that those with super modes are load bearers, and I like to add to that by saying load bearers happen when a bot who was meant to be massive was not provided with enough parts at construction, so they can wear armour that makes them at most their proper size.

 

It's similar to how I see it. The robot is extremely strong, and the super mode adds armour, flight, weapons.

(Using Siege UM as example) Ultra Magnus' pilons (shoulder towers) are shield generators, he's got loads of micro missiles launchers, and for the added weight, I can see some form of low density reverse gravity generators that makes the armor's weight much more manageable. Also using similar tech as for the combiners, each part uses a magnetic field that enhances mouvement and take part of the load off of the articulation. So others with super mode have the same tech built in.

I consider super modes and combiners to share a lot of this tech.

 

Ngl, I kinda hate how combiners mass shift, they should be as tall (from head to foot) as the member who forms the torso and head would be standing on the members who forms the legs.

 

For me, the reason I make a big deal about mass shifting is simply because otherwise, like I said earlier, why bother then? A combiner would then essentially be a bunch of guys stacking on each other while adding additional weak points like the combiner joints. In comparison, a super mode is way more efficient. You're not going to knock loose the arm of Star Saber or Ultra Magnus by striking their shoulder joints with enough force.

It's also partially inspired by that bit in Fall of Cybertron where the Combaticons combine. At the beginning of the sequence, the Combaticons are clearly roughly the same size as the generic Autobot soldiers, but after the combination a trio of soldiers react as though Bruticus is increasing in height. When the playable sequence begins, Bruticus is clearly several times the size of said soldiers. Off the top of my head, Jazz is roughly the same size as Bruticus' head. I can't imagine the Autobots being terrified of Bruticus were he only slightly taller. To use your child to adult comparison, sure, one child could be brought down by even a weak adult, but weren't combiners meant to be tide-turners that can swing an entire battle just by showing up? I can't believe that the Dinobots, for example, would have trouble with Devastator if he was merely twice their size. Against one or two Dinobots, sure, maybe, but not all five.

In regards to power, it isn't about "putting rocket fuel in my car", in my case I'd compare it to food of differing quality. Think of it like the difference between having a diet of fast food versus a properly nutritionally balanced diet. Yes, parts have a set limit, but what I (and I think what others who make that "Earth fuel vs Cybertronian fuel" comparison) argue is that when the Transformers are utilising Earth fuels (or fuels that aren't properly refine etc), they aren't operating anywhere near their actual physical limits.

For me, mass shifting is basically the equivalent of unstable molecules in Marvel Comics, the material they use to explain why super-powered characters can use their powers without affecting their costumes (e.g. why Invisible Woman doesn't have to strip herself naked every time she goes invisible, why Human Torch's clothes don't go up in flames when he activates his powers): it's just something in that fictional universe to streamline things for story reasons. It's not on the same level as, say, Beachcomber clambering onto the landing module of the moon landing as it departed the moon (something that probably would've had disastrous consequences for the astronauts inside because all their careful calculations would've gone out the window).

 

Personally I hate mass shifting, if you have the tech to do it, transforming or combining are basically pointless. If you can just become bigger why would you need the other guys? If you could shrink down car, keep it in your pocket, re size it, shrink yourself down and drive it, why would you transform?

Anyway how big should a combiner be? The size of its parts in robot mode transformed into there combiner component modes. Stronger and a little more durable than the sum of their parts but far from an unstoppable monster.

 

Well if you're going to like fictional capacities, then I wouldn't see why the articulation would be a weak point nor why something powerful enough could not rip anyone's arm off.

Combiners are about the combination having a massive impact. Think about it, someone with an arm the size of a person will absolutely be a massive difference. Imagine getting a punch from a hand that's the size of a BIG pumpkin made of metal.. that an instant death. A super mode is a powered armoured mode... Not as overpowered as the fiction that you're going with.

Again, my point was clear that I am leaving all the magic fictional stuff aside as I don't care for any of it, I'm looking at it in a real world scenario with advanced tech.

And again.. a strong adult even against teenagers could easily take a classroom's worth of kids down.. strength does increase exponentially with size... So 5 members (with one (the torso one) that is already a leader type) as one with have a combined power that will outdo 5 adversaries easily, I'd say that outside a truly powerful opponent and a lucky shoot, a combiner would be able to handle double or not triple his numbers. And again, as per my earlier post, I prefer combiners to follow their alt modes, so Devastator as per Superion, Volcanicus, Predaking and Bruticus, are titan combiners which is lower than actual Titans, but 2 or 3 of such Combiners would be able to take down an actual Titan. So if you have the Dinobots at their proper scale against Devastator, it would be a fairly equal battle, but if they combine to Volcanicus, Devastator is most certainly going to lose simply because of the difference between the Dinobots against the Constructicons is a fairly big one, even when the Constructicons are quite large to begin with. It's about a proper balance between what they are. If you're going with the crap cartoonish scale where they are all the same size (but that changes from one scene to another, even from one media to another), you will NEVER have any consistency or any parameters that can function.. who will win bears no other factor than what the writer wants to write for the plot.

Anything that makes them insanely huge is done because it's fiction and one scene can have any character to be 1,000 larger than the next scene, and this is done because there's a lack of coherence and they wanted to make it a big epic scene/moment... It kinda gets ridiculous to see so much inconsistencies and things done for simply the sake of being epic.

Ok, that is reasonable.

But I would still consider that like someone would clean dirty food before consumption, that they would have the capacity to ensure that they would refine anything to proper standard as I can't see them accepting to gum up their systems as per. It would be like trying to gas your car up with olive oil instead of proper octane gasoline... It's just not compatible.

Yeah I know all about the Marvel stuff since the 70s and there is an actual science here... The unstable molecules react to being in contact to the surface (skin) of the molecules that are changing in a radical fashion and reacts to it, mimicking it. So in part it has a quantum capacity to react as such, so mirrors the molecules that it's in contact with. Even the Pin particles stuff is about the space between atoms being manipulated... Sadly they screwed that up completely as they ignore the mass that would still be there, and the limit of how much expansion and compression that can happen (and other factors).

The Mass shifting is a fan made explanation/term to "explain" continuity errors and that the animators just didn't give a damn whatsoever about the robot's changing sizes. It's magical animation fiction that I wish would have never happened but we're stuck with it and those that cling to it...

As I said, it's fine if you prefer the fictional stuff, as this is nothing more than a conversation to discuss the differences in these different views and mine is about looking at it from a realistic possibility that physics can do, even with highly advance science. Heck, I consider Sparks to be sub-space pockets that are highly complex and the energy within can structure itself in patterns that mirrors synaptic constructs which reflect the way neurons functions, hence creating their personalities.

 

Crap, I keep forgetting that point!

And yes, ABSOLUTELY... Mass shifting means that you could pump any of them to Unicron size. No freaking reason with they can't, as accordingly of being fiction, all that's needed is that the writer decides to make it the plot. It defeats EVERY reason to have combiners, Titans, super modes, different sizes robots, etc.

 

I don't really have strong opinions on the matter (I like the combiner teams, but mainly because I like the individual characters), but I will say that having them be skyscraper-sized usually strikes me as a little bit silly. I don't mind them being big, but things like this are a little too much:




Dreamwave really loved its super-sized combiners for some reason.

Especially when they produced DULL SURPRISE!

 

I personally don't dislike the concept of mass shifting, so in my headcanon, it's applicable to the combiners. Blame the Enigma. Here are my heights:

Devastator: Each leg mass-shifts to be as big as Ultra Magnus, who’s around 2 heads taller than Optimus, and the torso is as big as him too, so he’s pretty large.
Superion: The limb-bots all double in size, so his legs are alone are twice Optimus’ height. His torso would be around as big as Magnus. This puts him at, say, a head or two shorter than Devy.
Menasor: Slightly shorter than Superion
Defensor: Same size as Menasor
Bruticus: Slightly taller than Superion
Computron: Same size as Superion
Abominus: Slightly shorter than Devastator (in between his and Superion’s heights)
Monstructor: Same size as Devastator
Road Caesar: One of the shortest combiners, standing at a head shorter than Star Saber, who is in turn a head shorter than Menasor. (For reference, I used Road Caesar’s height compared to Star Saber from the scale chart and HasLab Star Saber’s height compared to Legacy Menasor.)
Liokaiser: A head taller than Star Saber (same size as on the scale chart).
Landcross: Slightly shorter than Liokaiser
Dinoking: Slightly taller than Landcross, but slightly shorter than Liokaiser (in between their heights)

 

Variable.

Im a huge fan of as small as Tri Combiners as well as don’t see Mini cons as not combiners when they start becoming things like the Perceptor and stuff so.

That said most combiners are about 2x3 the times of Prime/Magnus to me.

 

This ^

 

I want them to be big, the idea is that one enter the battlefield, your only hope is to either have another combiner on your side or a small army to take on it. I'd say twice the height of Optimus Prime is the minimum to have them look like the average individual bot has no chance against them.
Having them gigantic, able to hold a regular bot in their hands, also works, but it can lead to so,e overlap with the citybots, unless you scale the latters to be as big compared to Optimus Prime as a human is to an ant...which incidentally I'm not against.