How much did each Bayverse film actually cost?

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by JohnStartop, Feb 8, 2019.

  1. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Ding dong THE BAYVERSE IS DEAD!

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    ...uh, it wasn't unheard of, because AoE was only the 14th film to make over a billion dollars.

    Oh, and then the following year there was Fast 7 and Minions which blew Transformers out of the water at the box office. Sentient corn puffs made more money than AoE, and it would be a much different story if Minions had come out a few months earlier so it was in the same fiscal year as AoE.
     
  2. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP AKA Beve Stuscemi

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    Too much.
     
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  3. Nathanoraptor

    Nathanoraptor Well-Known Member

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    Part of the reason TLK bombed was that it was overbudgeted. Combined with the quality of the competition (Spiderman: Homecoming and Wonder Woman), it was doomed from the beginning.
     
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  4. Galvatross

    Galvatross Swamp Lord Shrek-traoridinairre! Veteran

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    I'm inclined to agree with Nathanoraptor. We don't know how a different Transformers 5 would have done in terms of box office, and I think some of the specific creative decisions in TLK didn't help.

    That said, I DON'T think it was a good idea for The Last Knight to act as a springboard for a cinematic universe when AoE already had a few threads going. You didn't need to shoehorn Unicron, Witwiccans, Cybertron coming to Earth a second time, Suicide Squad Decepticons, and a rehash Cemetery Wind with TRF when you already had Creators and Prime's search for them, Galvatron vowing to meet Prime again, Dinobots on Earth, and Autobots being asked to protect the Yeagers. The latter was all you needed for a solid Transformers 5.

    Would a Transformers 5 that acted more like a sequel and less like a cinematic universe springboard made as much as DotM or AoE? Maybe not, but it's certainly a strong possibility it would have made more money than The Last Knight. At the very least, it probably would have been more palatable to the international audiences that showed up for DotM and AoE in droves, so I don't think it would have done as poorly as The Last Knight.

    It's also silly comparing films like Minions and the Bay Transformers films in terms of box office; these two different films aren't usually competing against each other in terms of targeted audience.
     
  5. Nathanoraptor

    Nathanoraptor Well-Known Member

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    It was the only billion-dollar grosser that year and the highest grossing film of 2014. That's a success in my book.
     
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  6. Galvatross

    Galvatross Swamp Lord Shrek-traoridinairre! Veteran

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    Exactly. People are perfectly entitled to not like the Transformers movies, but to claim that any of the first four Transformers movies were not financially successful is fans being delusional and/or dishonest.
     
  7. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Ding dong THE BAYVERSE IS DEAD!

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    During a down year when it didn't have anything to really compete with, either. All that does is point out that had there been one film of that kind of blockbuster caliber during that year, AoE would not be clinging to accolades it won simply because there were no other contenders in that competition.

    I've never said AoE wasn't a success - I've always said that AoE was a success built on such flimsy and risky business practices that it should not have been tried again. Except TLK did exactly that on even RISKIER terms by basically not having the Chinese government (who owns the Chinese film industry) essentially advertise the film for Paramount and give a higher percentage per ticket sold than the usual western fare does.

    The films were doomed, it was just a matter of when the house of cards would crumble - to believe otherwise is to ignore the fact that market appeal of the bayverse was unsustainable. After all, how easily it is forgotten the controversy over whether or not AoE even made $100 million opening weekend or not - it would have been quite embarrassing if it hadn't in the end, wouldn't it? We should consider ourselves fortunate, then, that TLK did so abysmally that it forced Hasbro and Paramount's hand and we got Bumblebee being an actually decent film that better represents Transformers. Ding dong, the bayverse is dead.
     
  8. JohnStartop

    JohnStartop There can only be one.

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    I think relative to what they spend, even after subsidies, and including marketing, many analysts said AOE was a disappointment.
     
  9. Galvatross

    Galvatross Swamp Lord Shrek-traoridinairre! Veteran

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    The thing is, ANY movie can be a disappointment depending on what your expectations are.

    That said, a fourth film in a series making $1.1 billion dollars worldwide, breaking China records at the time, and without Shia and Megan Fox, the stars of the earlier films American millennials usually associate with the films? That sounds pretty damn good to me.

    If anything, I think Age of Extinction did about as good as it could have realistically, both narratively and financially, given the cards it was dealt. Shia had left after 3, Megan was fired after 2, and alllll of the main Decepticons and many of the notable Autobots from the first three films were dead by DotM's ending.

    With those facts established, where is this imaginary fourth film that would have done better box office wise? Another film with the Autobots and N.E.S.T. hunting and fighting more random Decepticons from outer space? Fans often hated the first three A LOT, and that would have been even more repetitive.

    Reboot? That would mean establishing brand new humans WITHOUT the luxury of still having the Bayverse versions of Optimus, Bumblebee, Megatron, and Ratchet like AoE. And again, a reboot would have been extremely repetitive in all likelihood, because it would have been Autobots arriving on Earth again, Autobots befriending humans again, and probably the same old 1984-inspired cast at that.

    A Unicron film? That probably would have been a lot like TLK, in that you have larger-than-life entities involved and lots of regular-sized Transformers and humans running around vying for attention, meaning, like in TLK, people would have complained a lot about their favorite robots getting shafted in terms of screen time.

    AoE, while still sharing many aspects of the formulas of the earlier Bay films obviously, at the very least stepped into new territory in terms of character, story, and lore. The Shia and Megan Fox fans who wanted that first trilogy nostalgia and comfort zone, the previous Bayverse haters and critics who have knee jerk reactions to anything the Bay films do, the fans who wanted DotM to be a happy ending and for there to be no negative consequences or further story, the fans who just jump on bandwagons, and the hardcore Transformers fans who have completely unrealistic expectations for live action Transformers were NEVER going to give fourth and fifth films without Shia and Megan Fox and Starscream and Soundwave and Ironhide a chance. So with all the baggage from the previous films and all of the obligatory hatred leveled its way, I think AoE actually did excellent in terms of box office and an excellent job at being a fourth Michael Bay Transformers movie.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019 at 7:01 PM
  10. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Ding dong THE BAYVERSE IS DEAD!

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    And yet Bumblebee ended up being a reboot by reintroducing the Autobots to Earth and, shockingly, was almost universally well received, despite throwing out the majority of the bay shit.
     
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  11. electronic456

    electronic456 Well-Known Member

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    Oh, the irony...

    Maybe you did pay money to go see it.
     
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  12. Galvatross

    Galvatross Swamp Lord Shrek-traoridinairre! Veteran

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    Haven't you said you have no plans to see Bumblebee?
     
  13. JohnStartop

    JohnStartop There can only be one.

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    Again, it doesn't matter if it sounds good or feels good or seems good to us as individuals. It's not about whether or not the money was spent well. It's about where the money went.

    I asked because I don't have the answer.
     
  14. Galvatross

    Galvatross Swamp Lord Shrek-traoridinairre! Veteran

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    The thing is, most people DO base whether they think something is money well spent based on their own subjective opinions.

    Which is why I said 1) We can only go based on the production budgets we are given, which I don't need to list here given they've already been listed in this thread, and 2) The first four Bay films were undoubtedly, definitely, HUGELY profitable, regardless of whether one likes them or not. That second point is not even up for debate.
     
  15. JohnStartop

    JohnStartop There can only be one.

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    I don't know if you noticed, but whether or not Age of Extinction, the tipping point of the graph towards decline, is in itself part of said decline is irrelevant to this discussion.

    Yes, you can't base it on the overall quality of the film, but nobody was doing that. If you look at ILM effects jobs for films that reportedly cost about the same, they are inferior to the effects in Transformers. Now, somebody might disagree with that statement because a lot of the effects are messy, but that's purely from bad storyboarding/cinematography. The actual effects themselves are almost flawlessly textured and composed, and there are so many special effects shots even relative to other blockbusters. I seriously doubt that ILM one day decided they'd just do an amazing job for Transformers at the same cost as everyone else. They do what they're paid for. So how much do you speculate they cost relative to other films?

    That's just from a visual effects angle. They also have some increasing star power with each film. There are other angles to take as well.
     
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  16. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Ding dong THE BAYVERSE IS DEAD!

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    I had no plans to see it while it was in theatres because Paramount hasn't comitted to it being a reboot yet, so they don't get any of my money.

    It's fair game in my eyes once it becomes available either on DVD through the library system for borrowing or on Netflix.

    Plus, I caught some clips on youtube so I know enough to rank it far, far above Age of Excrement.
     
  17. Galvatross

    Galvatross Swamp Lord Shrek-traoridinairre! Veteran

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    What do you not understand about reported production budgets? We can only go based on the production budgets we are given: $150 million for 2007, $200 million for RotF, $195 million for DotM, $210 million for AoE, $217 or $260 million for TLK, $70/100/135 million for Bumblebee. Everything else is pure speculation, and there's zero way anyone here can say that the Bay movies had much higher budgets than reported officially. ESPECIALLY given that there is absolutely no way in Hell that there would have been five Bay films and a Bumblebee film had most of them not been insanely profitable.

    Yes, there are other ways films cost money to make, like marketing, but that's true for other big budget movies as well. The MCU films, X-Men films, Star Wars films, DC films, Hobbit films, Jurassic World films, Fast and Furious films, etc., are no different from the Transformers films in that regard, especially given that the likes of the Avengers films and Hobbit films, on average, cost more than the Transformers movies. To act as if the Transformers movie must be some special case in this way is beyond silly.

    That also doesn't take into account the fact that all of these big budget film series make plenty of money from toys and other merchandise.

    You had no desire to see it in theaters because it hasn't definitively stated to be a reboot, but you like what you have seen fair enough from YouTube clips, so you'll give it a shot in other media formats?

    Excuse me, but what? If you liked what you saw on YouTube fair enough, obviously whether or not Bumblebee is a reboot or not had little affect on whether you enjoyed the clips or not. So why let THAT keep you from watching it in theaters?
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019 at 1:36 PM
  18. Nathanoraptor

    Nathanoraptor Well-Known Member

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    This. It's honestly sad that @Autobot Burnout is making weak excuses to justify his hatred of of a film. If you don't like it, don't talk about it.

    As you have said, there is no way on Earth the films would have kept on getting renewed if they had not been insanely profitable. And AOE was not "the beginning of the end", critically or commercially.

    AOE, I think, is somewhat underrated. It was an attempt to break the format, removing the elements of previous films that had been criticised in the past. The search for the McGuffin is not the driving force of the plot, the human characters are far more endearing and likeable and there was a darker, more serious tone, without any of the vulgar humour that had ruined ROTF.

    The Transformers also had more focus and characterisation; Hound, Crosshairs and Drift weren't forgettable or annoying, as previous characters had been (lookin' at you, Skids and Mudflap). The antagonists also had more personality and a genuine sense of menace.

    Fans, audiences and, to some extent, critics noticed this and stated that the numerous changes made for a slightly better movie than its predecessors (many critics gave AOE an average score; they were simply counted as negative by Rotten Tomatoes).

    The big reason TLK bombed was a number of stupid decisions made by Paramount during production, the biggest one of which was firing Ehren Kruger, the man who could have brought quality back to the franchise.

    His solo films (DOTM and AOE) had plots that were much better than given credit and quite solid by Transformers standards. If he'd been kept, Kruger might have actually made a solid Transformers 5, rather than the shitstorm we got instead.

    It's unpopular to admit it, but I think he and Bay understood the brand better than most of the fans.
     
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  19. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Ding dong THE BAYVERSE IS DEAD!

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    Because as a consumer I protest their decisions (or lack therof) by not giving them any of my money.

    No money isn't leaving my pocket that wasn't already if I wait for the film on netflix or get it at the library, or see clips on youtube.

    Paramount decides what the fuck they're doing for once? Then they might get my money. But until then, I ain't wasting my money on them. I was never against Bumblebee in the end - I'm against keeping the bayverse on life support.

    The 1st amendment begs to differ.

    That profit only came out of extremely risky industry manuvers...which were not repeated in any sense with TLK beyond the idiotic continuation of Chinese product placement.

    Which the Chinese audiences laughed their asses off at because they knew that stuff wasn't realistically going to be found in use in the western countries most of TLK takes place in.

    No, no it did not.

    Right. And what do you call The Seed, then?

    One of the most common criticisms I've seen of AoE is that the humans are almost universally detestable and awful. From what I recall they were all largely forgetable and contributed little worthwhile presence that previous characters hadn't already provided in previous films.

    Oh no, the Autobots are being betrayed by the humans...again...for the third fucking time.

    It literally isn't new territory, all the film did was start at the "humans betray the Autobots" part the previous two films had.

    No, it just lasted three hours because they didn't even try to edit it.

    And they still died like bitches in the end. Except Galvatron who was so fucking useless he went back to being Megatron in order to have any kind of relevancy for why he was even still alive at that point.

    Why people think AoE actually is an improvement is legitamately beyond me, but since people whose views normally align with mine have mentioned they don't hate AoE as irrationally as I do, I'll give you this one.

    Kruger couldn't have saved the franchise. Not on the level Knight already did with Bumblebee.

    Thank god we will never know.

    Because that's what this brand is all about - how much of humanity's ass the Autobots have kissed all through history.
     
  20. Galvatross

    Galvatross Swamp Lord Shrek-traoridinairre! Veteran

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    And that's your freedom, but at the same time, it seems odd to be so vindictive over a toy company and films meant to sell toys.

    And I'm not going to address all of your points, but the problem with your hatred of the films isn't that you dislike the films. It's that your statements are often miles off base...

    Except in the previous two films, the government didn't ally themselves with a Cybertronian bounty hunter, help hunt AND kill the Autobots, and melt down their bodies for their metal. They merely wanted the Autobots to leave Earth. That's kind of a big difference from the earlier films. There's a big difference between adversity and exile one hand and murder on the other.

    Not to mention human-made Transformers, Lockdown and his views on the factions and his ship of alien wonders, and Optimus Prime losing faith in humanity. These were all new ground for the live action movies. AoE tried new concepts and lore and directions, and whether one likes them or not, that is something to respect. For instance, I don't care for how the Iron Man 3 Mandarin thread is executed...but I also greatly respect Shane Black and Marvel for trying something new.

    Except many Transformers survived the events of the movie? And Galvatron arguably has a bigger role in AoE's plot than Megatron does in any of the first three movies; I think he does. He was far from useless. On the contrary, he manipulated the humans in the film, being responsible for the humans making their own Transformers to begin with. He feigned being a drone to get what he wanted - even Lockdown had no idea he was just giving the humans what Galvatron wanted - He's able to go toe-to-toe with Prime in an incredibly even fight, as the leaders of the Autobots and Decepticons should. Only the appearance of four gigantic Dinobots, one which has fiery breath, is able to make him flee.

    Of course, you don't have to like AoE or any Transformers movie, but a lot of the things fans say about it are dubious nonetheless.