How it was possible that the Bayverse movies were so box office successful

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by JD The Last Autobot, May 4, 2019.

  1. ObakaChanTachi

    ObakaChanTachi Available by prescription only

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    It’s not just the cast, people lost faith in Transformers and got tired of seeing the same garbage over and over again. DOTM while not a massive improvement was miles better than ROTF and laid a excellent foundation for rebuilding Transformer’s reputation. Of which AOE pissed all over. TLK just added the fuel to the fire.
     
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  2. WarLordFoxxy

    WarLordFoxxy Well-Known Member

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    If it weren't for Michael Bay's specific take on Transformers, many blockbuster CGI movies that are popular today wouldn't even exist. Prime example, Iron Man. The first MCU film, Iron Man, was largely influenced by TF2007. Maybe even the whole MCU wouldn't exist if Iron Man wasn't influenced by TF2007. :) 
     
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  3. JD The Last Autobot

    JD The Last Autobot Well-Known Member

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    I was naive believing it was going to be as big as star wars some day when I saw TF3. +

    If bee AOE had been at least decent another story would be.
     
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  4. Cryptwire

    Cryptwire Cybertronian Engineer/Sniper

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    This is spot on.

    By the time AoE rolled in, Starscream is already dead. Soundwave is dead. Shockwave is dead. All of these high-ranking Cons are dead in this universe.

    And those are the villains that are fan favorites.

    By the time TLK comes in, Ironhide is dead. ratchet is dead. Pretty much the other main characters from the 2007 movie were already dead at that point, I guess with the exception of Barricade.

    Hell, we don’t even know what happened to barricade until he shows up on DoTM for a brief minute to be shot at by a HUMAN SNIPER (because the Decepticons, an army that beat the Autobots on Cybertron in a global civil war, cannot field kick ass snipers of their own for counter-sniper operations) and everyone thought he was dead the way he went down. Only to find out he survived in TLK but for most of the movie until the end, he’s missing in action again!!!

    But to me, the biggest factor that had my interest in the bayverse waning was it killed off the major autobots and cons in the most pathetic manner. Starscream in particular.

    It’s still a billion dollar franchise. The thing with Transformers, though, is it could’ve been what MCU is now and it could’ve been a candidate at the highest grossing box office list.

    All that was squandered because there’s been no strategic planning. You look at the MCU, WB’s Monsterverse, and detective pikachu, you’ll see the planning and respect to the source material.

    Detective pikachu director had to collaborate with the Pokémon company and studied different animals for two years to see their behavior and how they can be translated into live action. Hell, bulbasaur movements are based off a bulldog. They’re building the world in a coherent way.

    Now look at Transformers: 2007 Cybertron looked a certain way; then by DoTM, it’s this honey comb planet about the size of Saturn, then by TLK, Cybertron is as big as the moon... there’s no coherence. People can see no thought or care went into making it.

    Now the special effects team is different. They were amazing and should’ve at least gotten an award. They did great work. The design choices were entirely the decision of bay and because he’s the one who expresses and describes to ILM what he wanted to see and ILM just carry them out.

    Now Look at paramount and how they’re now handling Sonic. It’s pretty much how they were handling the design choices for the 2007 live action movie and now they’re getting burned for it. But it’s not the fault of the special effects team.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2019
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  5. PlanckEpoch

    PlanckEpoch Just a regular old plumbus

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    Cast alone is really just scratching the surface. I think a lot of it came down to just fatigue. The problem with mindless action flicks is that at some point they literally blur together and feel same-y. That's the problem with the Bay movies...they were high on action and eye candy but lacking everywhere else. Look at what critics are saying about Bumblebee, for instance. Look at what PEOPLE outside of the fandom are saying about it. It's fresh and good in comparison because Bumblebee focuses on STORY first, rather than pack the movie with action after action. That's substance. Substance in a movie is what will keep people coming in to a franchise. If the moviegoer literally has nothing to care about, then after a certain point they just stop coming to watch your movie.

    Look at the MCU. A series of solo movies that BUILD CHARACTER and establish conflicts and personality traits that will play a part in the team up movie, Avengers. By the time Avengers rolled around, we cared about Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, Thor. We cared and we understood their motivations. We watched each character grow. We watched how Tony Stark went from being a weapons dealer to someone who cared, who cared so much he'd make an attempt at sacrifice in Avengers. We saw in Iron Man 2 how the Mandarin made him think about his excess and come to grips about the things he really cared about. We see that care when he, in a way, mentors Peter Parker in Civil War and Homecoming. We see this care for human life again in Civil War, when the fault of Supers causing an international incident, which motivates him to commit to his ideals in the civil war, asking Rogers and his faction to step down and comply.

    Say what you want about the Marvel movies vs. the Transformers movies. There's a reason why the MCU is beloved and well received, even the worst movies. There's a reason why the Transformers movies are a laughing stock within the world at large. Every little thing about the MCU is crafted to make you care. If not care, then follow along and feel invested when a character grows. Transformers just throws a dozen alien robots in your face, does nothing to make you care about anything.

    Just let me finish this up with a story. I went to see Age of Extinction first time with a group of locals. I remember after the movie, we talked about the scenes and we got onto the subject of Ratchet. I basically said that, I felt absolutely nothing when Ratchet died, because I didn't know a damn thing about him. The only thing you knew about Ratchet was that he was the team doctor and medic. Not that he ever even really did any of those things. I didn't feel any sadness or loss because Ratchet was a complete, and utter stranger to me. The same thing happened to Ironhide. We're told Ironhide is a friend and Optimus' oldest soldier. But we never see them chit chat, we never see them fist bump or DO anything that indicates that they were friends. I also felt nothing when Sentinel killed him.

    When in the aftermath of The Snap, when we see our heroes disintegrating, I'm sure I'm not alone when I felt something when I saw some of these guys go. Bucky, the Guardians of the Galaxy, Peter Parker. Some of these newer, but some of them have been our traveling companions on a cinematic journey that has spanned a decade. By the time we see these people die before and after The Snap, we've already seen them in 2 or three movies, and we watched them grow. I've read some posts in the past saying how people see the Transformers movie franchise as better than the MCU. I'll be brutally honest and say that I don't think you're watching the same movies I am. There's a reason why the MCU has become an ICON in pop culture, and will continue to be talked about for generations to come, while the Transformers franchise is still on a life-line.
     
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  6. TheSoundwave

    TheSoundwave The Fox

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    I think the main influence Transformers had on Iron Man was the technical effects of the armor. The overall story and structure of Iron Man is very different than Transformers. I'm sure the MCU would still exist without TFs, it might just have less gadgets.
     
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  7. peteynorth

    peteynorth TFW2005 Supporter

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    One reason and one reason only: ILM

    Seriously, what else are people going to point to? The writing??? The direction??? The acting??? The overarching storyline???

    Naw, everything else was utter dogshit, but ILM did a fantastic job.
     
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  8. Rodimus Prime

    Rodimus Prime Sola Gratia, Sola Fide TFW2005 Supporter

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  9. AutobotAvalanche

    AutobotAvalanche Number One in Boogieland Moderator

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    Iron Man came out in 2008. It was well along in production in 2007 when Transformers came out. I doubt it had any real influence.
     
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  10. TheSoundwave

    TheSoundwave The Fox

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    I think the filmmakers actually stated that Transformers was an influence for the armor. But it think it was more of a "proof of concept" thing. According to the Wikipedia page for Iron Man, ILM was hired after Jon Favreau saw Transformers (among other movies). It's possible he saw an early cut, since Marvel was under Paramount at the time. It also says the marketing campeighn was based on Transformers'. But yeah, the MCU would have happened without it.
     
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  11. hthrun

    hthrun Show accuracy's overrated

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    Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but wouldn't being miles better be a massive improvement?
     
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  12. MV95

    MV95 @marlinfan1995 Veteran

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    Adding to the various comments about Iron Man/Transformers. I think the only thing was that ILM working on Transformers gave them the confidence to do Iron Man’s CG.

    Although on a related note, I specifically remember Joss Whedon saying the goal for the final battle in The Avengers was to match the action of Dark of the Moon.
     
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  13. Cryptwire

    Cryptwire Cybertronian Engineer/Sniper

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    This needs to be emphasized. And the key to any reboot being successful.

    Which is why I keep saying the Transformers live action franchise is yet to realize its full, maximum critical and box office potential.

    I look st other franchises, particularly Terminator... that’s gone after missing the mark after Terminator 3.

    But Transformers hasn’t reached its “golden age” yet, so to speak.

    It will when it is handed to able and passionate people that will have respect for the fans, characters and source material.

    There’s still a lot of love and goodwill for Transformers. Given distance and getting the right people handle it this time and tap into that interest again and employing an effective marketing campaign (viral and conventional), the live action franchise will kick ass again.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2019
  14. Gordon_4

    Gordon_4 The Big Engine

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    Hang on, didn’t The Avengers come out in 2012, and Dark of the Moon in 2013? Or were they the same year. I mean either way Avengers had the better action of the two but it was a fairly narrow contest as Dark of the Moon was no slouch in that area.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2019
  15. Sablebot

    Sablebot Autobot Media Scientist

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    I disagree- actually the spark that lit the CGI flame was 25 years prior, with TRON (1982), and to some extent the original WestWorld film (1973)that enabled the explosion of CGI in movies, as well as the creation of studios such as Pixar & Dreamworks:

    From 'TRON' to 'TRON: Legacy': A Brief History of CGI in the Movies

    https://m.ranker.com/list/movies-made-before-cgi/anncasano;

    TRON (1982) - The Sanity Clause

    In Tron We Trust | Disney Insider

    As well as ILM in the 80s, and many more sources. . .
     
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  16. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

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    We're all likely going to need to resort to some kind of speculation for this kind of discussion, as I'm pretty sure there's no survey or academic information on why large audiences liked these films... Up until they didn't like them much anymore.

    I would guess that the reason the first film was such a wild success was that it had a lot going for it: an established, popular brand with a built-in audience whose nostalgia was in line with a peak-disposable-income time of their life, a solid, unique concept that could appeal to new audiences, a large budget and strong marketing, top-of-the-line special effects, and at the end of the day, a bunch of things that hadn't really been seen on the big screen up to that point. That the performances were okay, that the story was somewhat bland, and that the overall execution had its issues weren't enough to douse the goodwill the film was able to develop with its audiences.

    When the second film came out, it built on some of the successes of the first film, fell short in a bunch of others, but it was still a big budget spectacle film, and audiences were still finding what they saw novel. The third film accomplished much the same, and closed off the 'arc' of Sam's story. There was a sense of closure.

    So even though the second and third film were very similar, they were still enough to satisfy audiences. When the fourth film came out, however, I think audiences expected more of a change or a leap forward as the story moved to new characters, and what they received was much the same. The novelty of seeing the transformers on screen was wearing off, the areas of weakness for the franchise weren't really improving, and what new ideas were put forward weren't really as captivating as in the previous films. Worse, it felt to a lot of people that the production staff were running out of steam and passion for the franchise (Bay himself had already tried to exit the franchise at this point), and while the franchise was stagnating, the industry was moving forward around it.

    So by the time the fifth film came out, part of the audience had run out of goodwill for the franchise and no longer had faith it would be worth their time, and another part was just sick of the franchise delivering the same thing time and again and wanted something new, which competition easily provided. Paramount was desperate for the film to be a financial success, but must have been aware of the fatigue the franchise was experiencing, even if they were reluctant to deviate strongly from the formula they saw as successful previously, and marketed the film less strongly, relying on it being a well-established name at that point. I think that audiences had just moved on, however, and there wasn't anything unique enough anymore to attract new audiences.
     
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  17. Ash from Carolina

    Ash from Carolina Junior Smeghead

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    I think it would be safe to blame Paramount. When you look at the overall releases by the studios Paramount has been more reluctant to change than any other studio. When Fox was still a studio they stumbled into how a rated R superhero movie could work with Deadpool so that gave them the courage to go risky with a rated R Logan. Warner Brothers thought making all their superheroes grim, dark, and gritty like Batman would work and when that plan failed we ended up with Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Shazam that are nothing like the Dark Knight movies. Universal was willing to scrap their Dark Universe plans when The Mummy disappointed at the box office. But Paramount just kept trying the same things over again with GI Joe, Ninja Turtles, and all their other potential endless franchise films.

    It's almost like Paramount was so paranoid they might run off some of the fans that were happy with as is that they refused to take the sort of risks they needed to when it came to keeping up with the other studios. Heck even Marvel/Disney has managed change because you can't keep something like MCU going and going without something different to bring people in.

    Almost funny that the series about robots that change into cars is the one film series that couldn't change.
     
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  18. JD The Last Autobot

    JD The Last Autobot Well-Known Member

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    @AshfromCarolina The problem is that until TLK the movies despite being hated by the critics did not show symptoms of exhaustion in the people Paramount just looked at the incredible numbers of DOTM and AOE and said if something is not broken to change it and after TLK change with BB due to the failure of this movie I hope you have learned the lesson.
     
  19. PlanckEpoch

    PlanckEpoch Just a regular old plumbus

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    Well, they did. Dark of the Moon made less at the domestic box office than ROTF did, and Age of Extinction made even less than DOTM did. It's a pretty clear sign that basically fewer and fewer people were going out to see Transformers. Age of Extinction made a boatload of money overseas, primarily in China where the movie pandered to, but the net result is that the movie still made less money than DOTM. Granted, not THAT much less, but the weak domestic take compared to each movie ahead of it is most certainly indication of franchise fatigue beginning to set in.
     
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  20. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Fresh Marvel G1 Fan

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    I really believe TF1 nd DOTM were Bay's best work, on Transformers and in his career. Theyre both bogged down by just a little too much human story vs tf story in the ratio. But they still have the best* human stories aside from BB and the Battle of Chicago is cinematically legendary.

    AOE is a great TF movie trapped inside of a bad, bad blockbuster. Still one of my favorites takes on Optimus Prime and a STELLAR performance from Peter Cullen. Contender for a career best. I like to watch AOE in halves, ending with Optimus Prime's capture after his initial exchange with Lockdown in the Temenos.

    Plus believe it or not in AOE and TLK the average moviegoer REALLY enjoyed Hound.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2019
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