Right. This. As someone who's female, I don't feel like someone who is "different than a male" or "different from the default." I just feel like myself. I am troubled that someone would suggest that female characters need an extra layer of scrutiny and justification compared to male characters, largely because there are plenty of people who take that point of view towards real women in real life.

 

So what you're basically saying is there is no admirable traits about being female or feminine to a genderless alien robot, that it would rather choose to be a refrigerator shape than be female...

I used to feel a lot like you about the situation and about how females are stereotypically portrayed with the same tired cliche tropes repeatedly. Yet I find your views to be counterproductive and sexist.

While you present decent points and logic to robotic beings and bring up the cliches of the media, you also are shaming femininity in the process. Your statements come off that being a feminine female is bad just because it is cliche and overused, and it's ok for them to be ANYTHING else other than that.

As I've continued to read through the back and forth debate, all the little smart remarks you made in your posts only ruined any decent points you were making. What good is a righteous cause when the person behind it has a horrible egotistic attitude? Instead of something civil and interesting to read, you hurt yourself by being condescending and insulting to anyone who doesn't share your views.

This woman on a random forum made a good point about body armor in science fiction and fantasy settings. She said: "What is so wrong with wanting to show off your feminine body? To be proud of your body and yourself instead of feeling the need to hide or conceal it? To be ashamed."

I always personally felt it was attention seeking to show off your feminine attributes. Needing to prove to everyone around you that you're a female as if it mattered (mostly because women in nerd culture was frowned upon or appeared to be rare so the girls felt special and show offish). Yet at the same time, her point was good. Her point proved just how sexist our society is and how woman shaming and feminine shaming it is. That to be feminine was shameful. Was wrong. To be proud of who (females) and what you are was wrong. But we already know that. You however claim to be for the right cause, yet resort back to sexist and offensive statements.

Maybe from a media standpoint, female Transformers only exist to be fair for the female viewer. Guys sure as hell complain about it enough so it doesn't come off to be solely for their amusement. Maybe the points Mewtwo brought up (that you so conveniently ignored or dismissed), are sound points but because he doesn't agree with you or the majority here, it's ok to throw out any legit claims he made and belittle him for his choices and views, and act like you know his reasoning for him based on his signature (and I can tell you how wrong you'd be, not that you'd believe me or can even see past your e-peen). You act so high and mighty, yet come off incredibly immature with your belittling and mocking of someone who doesn't share your view points and who not once treated you with any disrespect aside from simple disagreement. And yeah, maybe I'm being hypocritical right now for doing the same thing to you as you did to Mewtwo, but you started it. You get what you give and you don't deserve no decency from me.

Maybe it's ok to be ANY shape you want... except for that one. NEVER can you be that one because it is overused. Overdone. Stereotypical. And being a female is shameful because the only attributes a female has is anything to do with sexual appearance or childbearing, but males are ok to be used over and over again because they're neutral.

I also find it rather offensive how many times you mentioned that the female form is sexualized.

Because of how you or society views women's bodies as sex objects, you go ahead and state many times how you feel that giving a Transformer a female body type is sexualizing the character. By your definition the same can be said of obvious male body types, as I as a hetero female find male bodies attractive. So is it ok for me to state that all male's body types are sexualized? It's incredibly sexist for you to say that.

To be on either extreme end or more towards the middle of the gender scale, none are wrong or should be seen as wrong since it would be a choice of the Cybertrionian to choose their physical appearance based on how they feel, relate to, or just simply like.

It's just like Knock Out liking human cars. There doesn't need to be a logical reason for him to like Earth things. He just does. He likes it so he became it. Why then is this so different for a feminine body type? They like it. Maybe they identify with it, so they choose it. Nothing should be wrong with that or even hard to understand. I perceive Transformers as more than just robots or machines, but people with likes and dislikes.

To understand my point of view, you have to view that looking like a feminine female is like choosing a color. It has nothing to do with sexual reproduction. It is just for aesthetics. It's just appearance. Maybe they personally relate with female humans and so chose a female body to help represent that. Maybe they just simply liked the look, such as Prime Starscream having what most people consider "feminine legs and feet". He likes it. Any gender role it is associated with is meaningless to him.

Maybe they identify with females in much the same way a transgendered person identifies with whatever gender they prefer or feel they are most like, They change their body to represent that on the outside.

It's not sexist to make feminine characters. It's only sexist when it is the ONLY thing you make under the assumption that is the only thing that exists. When you only give them personalities and values that are seen as old fashion or stereotypical of the gender, which is not always the case as things are improving slowly as time progresses.

It's also a pretty weak argument to just go dismissing everything said by using the excuse "oh they're just fictional anyways" it comes off like you have no other counter but to fall back on some lame excuse that they're not real, which completely dismisses the point of any of us, including you, taking so much time to talk about this in the first place. They're fictional, you say, so then why even care to discuss anything. What is the point of even talking about all of this in the first place.

Anyway, since I know you're the type to point this out, seeing as how you smugly mock people and insult them indirectly, yes I came here because Mewtwo and I were discussing the topic. To be quite honest, I'm surprised he even came in here and said anything, as he usually avoids anything to do with these kinds of topics with a ten foot pole. While on the other side, these are genuinely the topics that I hop right on into. I'm here because I had something to say. I'm here because anyone who agrees with Mewtwo wont back him up, but instead hide in the shadows, while everyone just rubs your ego making you incredibly arrogant and not even worth debating with. And I wont be debating with you, but I felt all your smugness and anti-sexism cloud you live in, needed to be brought down a notch. You're as sexist in your views for all the negative horrible things you have said in this topic than the writers and their cliche stereotypes you criticize.

 

If I seem a bit sensitive to criticism it's because how you handle it and come off about it. Which is very self opinionated and even arrogant. You say you want to have a normal discussion and not come off like personally attacking but you end up doing just that in the long run. Whether intentional or not.

My arguments might not have all been perfect or whatever you want to think yours are but I brought up good points. But you just easily dismiss them because they don't suit your views or opinions.

The very fact of what you just said here shows you are very stuck up. You come off very opinionated and very stuck in your ways. Saying you HAD to call me on them? Being so stuck up you are saying maybe forcing me to reconsider? Really? FORCING? That is exactly why I can tell it's pointless to even bother trying to have a conversation with you any longer. You literally only see it how YOU do and you try to force people to see it your way and if they don't THEY are in the wrong. Because you know, you actually believe your way is the right way. The very thing you say about me being stuck in how I view it directly applies to you as well. Not sure if you realise that. But what you are accusing me of... you are doing the exact same thing. Maybe someone should "FORCE" you to change. Yeah... doesn't come off sounding right does it?

Anyone who is in a debate should say something like "Maybe it'll give you a chance to see a different view" not "FORCE you to change" That right there shows me enough about you not to even bother talking to you anymore.

Nothing said to you will matter, you will always be one sided about it. You say the very things to others that you are yourself. Like saying people are being sexist. Did you know YOU are? Yes. You are being sexist because you are actually implying that IF a girl wants to be something that you think is a sexist stereotype it's bad. You are objectifying that certain female form as "Sexual". You say others are but that is exactly what you are doing because you are saying it is a bad stereotype and so people shouldn't be allowed to be that. Or the only point of it is sexual. You are saying THAT form is nothing more then a sexual one. So who's being sexist? I guess if a big breasted woman walks around with an hourglass shape and chooses not to hide it under jogging pants and baggy clothing. I guess she's just giving in to the stereotype and should only be seen as a sexual form right? Sure seems you are implying it. Countless times you kept referring to that female form as sexual and sexist and such. I don't think even once you talked about it like it was just a form. But had to go on about how sexual or sexist it was. WHO is the one seeing it that way? Others? Seems like YOU keep seeing it that way.

But even all that aside. You literally are trying to come off as the normal person here having a discussion and making it out to seem like I'm taking things personal or something. Well if anyone reading all the things you are saying I think it's obvious why someone would take some stuff personal. Your response right here to me and previously again goes on about my sig (and go Fail! I mean really?) or says some kind of attack against my opinions or views or the things I say. You ARE becoming abrasive and albeit in a sly way slipping in attacks and judgements.

Forcing me to change my views? No one forces me. No one should force anyone. Your whole comments right here show to me that there is no having a normal discussion with you. Because you will just throw down your insults and have your self righteous attitude you do. That your way is right and everyone else is wrong and maybe you can FORCE them to change their views to how you see it cause you know... you are the right one. You are the one who is right and everyone who doesn't agree is wrong. A Discussion and debate should bring up points and counterpoints and not directly attack someones views on the matter. But no, I can see what type you are. Now that you bring it out.

That right there shows me enough about you not to even bother talking to you anymore. You are no longer worth my time.

(Oh and by the way. Stop being a sheep to tvtropes. Seriously. Have a mind of your own and stop going with all the opinions others have. Maybe think for yourself instead of letting all the stuff you read and hear be the only thing you can bring up in an argument. You know. Have a mind of your own.)

 

see my signature for my opinion  

 

There's nothing wrong with having a "feminine shaped body", although I would point out that an hourglass body shape is not really "a feminine body", but merely "one TYPE of feminine body".

The question is more along the lines of "Why is it okay for male Transformers to have the refrigerator bodies, but not the female Transformers?"

Remember, this is not a species that actually exists, so "maybe it's just because that's how things ARE in their alien culture!" is not a very good answer. There is no real "alien culture", there is a fictional alien culture which was invented by humans. Therefore, the traits of the "alien culture" really reflect something about humanity.

It's like asking, "Why are the women in romance novels circa the 1800s such wimps? Why do they all have pale porcelain skin and swoon at the drop of a hat?" You could say, "Those just happened to be their personalities and that just happened to be what they looked like," but really the answer is "Because they were written by people in the 1800s, when high-class women didn't go outdoors much (so pale skin = sexy) and who felt a 'proper' woman was an easily shocked, delicate flower."

(I don't know anything about 1800s romance novels so please forgive me if the heroines were actually badasses. It's just an example.)

I do agree, Lady Owl, that it's tiresome when traditionally feminine things get looked down upon FOR BEING feminine. Like anything to do with the color pink, or fashion, or what have you. There is nothing wrong with any of those things, but for a lot of people (including, sadly, many women), the gut reaction is "Ewwww, so GIRLY!" Well, there's nothing wrong with being girly.

Reminds me of a quote I saw on Tumblr: "Just once I'd like to see a movie where the guy tells a girl, 'You're not like other girls', and she responds, "WTF is wrong with other girls?'"

 

...ON SECOND THOUGHT, SCREW THIS NOISE.

Upon reflection, this latest coordinated double-team of Mewtwo/LadyOwl have gone so far off topic (and the related issues), that I don't really see much reason to carry on pretending that there's an intelligent or civil conversation going on here.

By not responding to any of the questions I put forward, and instead devoting most of your shared posts to constant accusatory and petty personal attacks, you've demonstrated that you can't play with adults. I've cut down my over-tired, irritable, rambling immediate response to a few basic comments (still long-winded I guess) and that will be the end of it for me... as far as you two are concerned.

Negative? Almost always.

Smug? Occasionally.

Horrible, cruel, nasty and especially sexist?
Ha. No. Please spare us all the hyperbole.

Disagreement is not necessarily disrespect. Criticism is not necessarily an insult. Argument is not "bullying".

You can evidently fill a page with text, and you even raise an interesting question about how a rejection of sexist tropes can actually backfire and result in the marginalization of 'traditional femininity' or sexuality... could even be worth discussing. But not with you, unfortunately.

You've shown that you don't really understand at all how sexism operates within cultural products, and are resorting to the old "I know you war but what am I?" trick of just throwing the same accusations back on someone who disagrees with you. This is also commonly seen with the old "noticing racism makes you a racist" argument. It's nonsense.

Most of your comments above are really just a defensive rant strewn together with wild presumptions, straight-up ad hominem attacks and petty insults. As a result, strangely I don't really feel like I've been "taken down a notch" at all. After reading your diatribe, I feel like you've kind of pushed me up a couple of notches by comparison. Go figure.

I didn't "dismiss" them. I read and answered them. Every. Single. One. That's a long way from "dismissing". Meanwhile, I certainly don't feel like you've addressed many of my counterpoints at all.

Any time you confront someone with a different point of view, you ARE 'forcing' them to reflect on their position.

Don't get caught up on the word "force"... you entered into a debate willingly. Being exposed to different opinions is a good thing because it forces all of us to see other points of view (even if we don't always agree with them). That's how it works.

I don't understand walking into a debate and then complaining about someone being "opinionated". That simply means they have an opinion they believe in... and frankly, that's the way it should be. Debates go both ways... you want to convince others of what you feel is "right"... and you want to see what other people think. If you make strong arguments, you will convince others... or maybe they will convince you instead.

But you shouldn't enter a debate, and then get offended when someone dares to poke holes in your arguments or criticizes a statement you have made. That's their prerogative. It's like playing ping-pong and getting upset that your opponent hit the ball back at you.

You are 'opinionated' too. Have you changed your point of view? No. Have you accepted my arguments? No? Have you tried to insult me? Yes.

Sounds fair... does that make you 'arrogant' too?

About your sig image, yes I teased you about that. My point was that your arguments about not needing sexualized images of Transformers were being somewhat contradicted by the picture, which places Arcee in an objectifying and sexual position. It kind of advertises your personal stakes in the discussion... that is, your bias, that you like sexy fembots, etc... Why is it wrong to point that out?  

And yes, I'm sorry if you took some of it too personally. I do tease sometimes... maybe I go to far occasionally. But it also feels like even my disagreement, and my being confident in my point of view, is "insulting" to you. And because that makes you feel bad, instead of responding to those arguments, it's easier just to accuse me of being arrogant. Bravo.

Wait... whaaaaaat? Are you serious? TVTROPES??? Okay, nothing else you've said really bothers me, but NOW you've made me mad!  

I have spent maybe like, TWO hours on TVTropes. Once. Probably 6 years ago. It's a TERRIBLE website. The only thing worse than someone quoting extensively from TVtropes... is someone having such a limited view of the world that they assume that TVtropes is actually where these ideas come from!!

As if feminist cultural criticism only got invented when sheltered anime nerds found the internet. I mean, it's not like sexual politics and cultural representation have been a constant, ongoing discussion running through various Humanities disciplines for like FIFTY YEARS now or anything, right?

(of all places... TVtropes? I mean, Jezebel.com would be bad enough! Ouch! For the record, the only terms I ever adopted from TVtropes were "worfing" and "lampshading"... mostly because they just sound funny. Ahhh... poor, poor Worf.   )

zmog

 

Unfortunately I just stop reading them when it becomes walls of text splitting the initial topic question into ever finer definitions and point/counterpoints. I'll just dip in and out of the shorter posts instead as usually the wall-of-texters are only conversing with each other. It's like the thread splits into two conversations and I can still easily read the shorter one without needing to read the longer-winded one.

No offence to the heavy keyboard tappers though.

 

No, it doesn't. I have the VHS, the DVD, and the audio tapes. The opening narration starts something like "deep in one of the spiraling arms of the Milky Way lies the planet GoBotron", makes reference to the civil war, and then narrates the retreat of CyKill's forces. The word "cyborg" isn't there and in fact there's no reference at all to anything outside of this battle. I'll post the script word for word when I get home if you want.

The first time they even go into GoBotron's past is in The GoBotron Saga 5-parter. Scooter and Nick get stuck inside the base of a statue of the Last Engineer, watch some old GoBotron newscasts, and eventually stumble onto his cryochamber after having revived the Master Renegade by mistake. The Last Engineer is technically a cyborg (AJ asks if he's a robot) and I guess so is the Master Renegade by virtue of having a laser eye. By the way, how does a human brain survive its robot body being powered down, disassembled, and fired into the sun? Later episodes also contradict the cyborg theory, including the very episode used to "prove" that they're cyborgs. Sentinel, bent on purging organic life forms, scans the Renegades at the beginning of the episode and finds no organic components. That's how CyKill is able to manipulate him into attacking UNECOM and the Guardians. What, did he "forget" how to scan for carbon and then remember later?

Then there's the whole "mighty robots, mighty vehicles" tag line. I mean even in the toys' fiction, which is scattered at best and clearly diverges from the cartoon, there's only one instance where it describes them as cyborgs. I've been 'round and 'round with the Wiki folks on this. Their word based on foggy memories of a show they hate anyway is not law.

Is your brain shaped like a cone? A football? A wedge? No, it's shaped like this:

How does a 6ft tall human end up having a conical shaped brain that fills an entire helicopter cockpit?

 

Amazingly the GoBots just got one more female. In the Renegade Rhetoric Facebook page they posted another story, this one was about an unaired season 2 episode they made up called "Rebels Without a Circuit". The cast included Bent Wing, the last regular GoBots toy produced, who is portrayed as female.

 

Weren't the mecha all guys in the original anime?

 

Because that would imply there was a binary gender system preceding, which is what makes Gobots distinct from Transformers. The concepts are distinct.

 

Yeah, but the original Japanese anime was Machine Robo, which isn't really Gobots. Totally different fiction that just happens to share some robot designs.

In the early Hannah-Barbera Gobots series, we mostly just saw the basic 6-bot cast... in which Crasher was the only female (without needing physical differences to assert her being "female"). As the series went on, they introduced more and more Gobots who were female, despite not looking any different in design from the males. They were still always a minority though... which was not surprising for a cartoon and toy line aimed mostly at little boys. For the time, I think it was pretty progressive to have as many female Gobots as they did. I like to believe that as a result, a lot of little boys in the 80s were actually inspired to think differently about male/female stereotypes. I know I did.

zmog

 

One minor correction, Path Finder, a female Guardian, was in the first episode. So there were 2 females from the very beginning of the series, even if it was a minor character.

Also, fun fact about Crasher, her original character bio was found in a Toy Fair catalog, and Crasher was MALE, at least as written by Tonka.

Also, in the original bios Spay-C was male, despite being female in the TV show.

In the original bios for the first wave of toys, only the Guardian Path Finder and the Renegade Spoiler (who was male in the TV show) were female. One female on each side.

 

Why is it that "no gender" translates to "no girls"? Why haven't we had any genderless but feminine Transformers?

 

Because men wrote the rules. Not saying this is good or bad, just factual.

 

By this logic, there shouldn't be any guys either. Still doesn't explain why they refer to each other by gendered pronouns when they are supposedly genderless which is something I never got in these sort of threads.

 

Technically the Transformers were not guys, but they picked up male pronouns in the English language just to avoid calling each other "it". At least that's what Hasbro seemed to intend. They later retroconned it into them being men when they added women robots to the story.

 

Yeah, she got a brief screen appearance back on Gobotron, right? I think I remember that.

I wasn't aware that the original Gobots actually HAD profiles at all... I didn't know their fiction was developed before the cartoon came around. Remember they weren't even Guardians or Renegades at that point... just "friendly" and "enemy". Where did you see the profiles?

It doesn't surprise me that Tonka would have made them all "male" to start with. That's why I think HB did something bold by mixing it up more.

"No gender" doesn't translate into "no girls". It means -no gender-. Or at least no "true" gender. Under that logic, the genders we attach to them (usually male) are inaccurate or arbitrary, and don't necessarily reflect their physical or psychological reality. It's like calling your car, or a boat, or even your toy robots by gendered pronouns. It doesn't reflect the reality of the objects either way.

But if you wanted to go back through the G1 catalogue and start assigning female gender identities to characters, what criteria would you follow? Would you seek out characters with so-called "feminine personalities" (like say, Starscream, or Hound or Bumblebee or whoever)? Or would you just distribute genders at random?

The truth is that there are very few G1 Transformers who are unequivocally "masculine" in terms of physical design. Mostly they are just vaguely humanoid geometric robots. It's our ingrained cultural biases that identify them as "male" due to an absence of hyper-gendered female traits. The rare exceptions are bots with obvious facial hair designs, or to a lesser extent, Optimus Prime with his "pecs and abs".

That's more a concession to the English language. We don't really have common or easily applicable genderless pronouns, so they became mostly "male" because it was always primarily a toy line aimed at young boys.

Binary gender makes zero sense for Transformers, so I've always preferred the notion that TFs are genderless aliens who can't fully understand gender as we do (and vice versa, we can't understand fully the idea of "no gender").

HOWEVER... in the interests of being more inclusive, I'm fine with the idea that some TFs might identify as "male" or "female"... either as a "borrowed" cultural trait from organic species, or as some rough approximation that exists in their Cybertronian culture. However, I'm very much against the idea of having rigid physical/biological gender traits that distinguish between male/female bots. So keeping boob-plates, lipstick, heels, and slender, curvy bodies (based on gender typing) to a minimum. Form should follow function, kibble should follow alt-modes, etc... and neither of those things should be tied to gender.

Anyway, that's my feeling in a nutshell. To get any deeper into it, I might as well just cut & paste everything I've already written in this thread.  

zmog

 

The bios actually appeared in one 1984 Tonka toy catalog. I wish they had had the insight to put them on the back of the toy cards, like Transformers did. So kids would see them!

ROBOPLASTIC APOCALYPSE-Incomprehensible Transmissions from the Nostrodomatron

Yes, they were called "Friendly Robot" and "Enemy Robot" at first. They also referred to the friendly robots as part of a "Security Force" in the bios.

The TV show changed it to Guardian and Renegades, and the toys followed suit in the third year.