Get annoyed by the lack of continuity of the movies

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Dmhead, Jun 7, 2024.

  1. Terrellatron

    Terrellatron REPAIR REPAIR REPAIR

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2017
    Posts:
    2,186
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Likes:
    +3,996
    When it came to 4&5 amd the allspark I headcannoned the Creators made the cybertronians physical bodies as simple factory bots or slaves while the allspark is what gave them actual sentience and life.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Galvatross

    Galvatross Dom Dom, Yes Yes Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2013
    Posts:
    7,476
    Trophy Points:
    292
    Likes:
    +11,132
    Some of these recent complaints about continuity are odd. While there are certainly valid criticisms of the Bayverse, it seems like half of them are based on things that are demonstrably false.

    Ironhide being killed by Cemetery Wind? The CW cards are just cards indicating which robots are dead and NOT indicators that CW is the one who killed them! Starscream and Shockwave are also examples of robots marked as killed. Yes, there are a few mistakes made in them, but that is not one of them.

    The Transformers did not come to Earth during the Cretaceous and kill the dinosaurs. The Creators did. Even if Transformers did come to Earth, there can be different types of Transformers just like there can be different kinds of organic life around the universe or through Earth's history.

    Regardless of the plans of Megatron, Sentinel, and The Fallen, you have to remember that you are dealing with Decepticons. The existence of one plan doesn't necessarily contradict another. Even if deception is not involved, it's no different than an individual human having multiple plans as far as jobs and careers, who to date, where to live, where to vacation, etcetera, in case one of them does not work.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  3. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout ...and I'll whisper "No."

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Posts:
    45,572
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    467
    Location:
    [REDACTED]
    Likes:
    +41,540
    Please, do explain how exactly "enslave the humans" from DOTM does not contradict the fact ROTF was very explicitly "DESTROY ALL HUMANS". The whole "lets enslave an entire population to rebuild our planet because we're gods and above having to clean up our own mess" thing kinda doesn't work when you go out of your way to try and murder that exact same entire population before the 'enslavement' part.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  4. Galvatross

    Galvatross Dom Dom, Yes Yes Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2013
    Posts:
    7,476
    Trophy Points:
    292
    Likes:
    +11,132
    1. Megatron is an opportunist who will try to use any situation to his advantage. He has no problem with humans being enslaved or destroyed.

    2. The Fallen =/= Sentinel Prime. The Fallen wanting to destroy humanity does not contradict Sentinel Prime wanting to enslave humanity. They are completely different characters and have different goals.

    3. Conquerors throughout have often murdered large segments of the conquered population before enslaving the survivors. The massacre in Chicago in DotM does not contradict Sentinel's desire to enslave the remainder of humanity.

    4. Shrek.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  5. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout ...and I'll whisper "No."

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Posts:
    45,572
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    467
    Location:
    [REDACTED]
    Likes:
    +41,540
    1. Humans were only an ends to a means but again, if the whole point of the plan in DOTM was to enslave humanity to make them rebuild cybertron...then why would you intentionally destroy them all first? ROTF had the plan be 'destroy the sun' by which if successful, was going to ensure the death of every living thing on Earth as an inevitability in the near future.

    2. I never said that they didn't, but this is entirely on Megatron having conflicting objectives. DOTM more or less establishes that Megatron and Sentinel made their little agreement before Megatron even left Cybertron in the first place, meaning all through ROTF, he's supposed to have had it in his head about the whole 'I want to restore Cybertron' thing. Destroying the sun and all biological life on Earth as a result (since this is quite literally the only objective Fallen has had for thousands of years) means no slave force to rebuild Cybertron. And if the Decepticons at any point were interested in cleaning up their own mess in the first place, then that would invalidate the whole point of DOTM's plot altogether.

    3. I didn't say that, either, did I? I only talked about the plot of ROTF in how The Fallen wanted to kill literally everything. Period. Fallen doesn't care about rebuilding Cybertron at all, so he absolutely would make sure every last human on Earth was slain. And again, you can't really enslave a population to rebuild your planet if that entire population is dead.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Galvatross

    Galvatross Dom Dom, Yes Yes Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2013
    Posts:
    7,476
    Trophy Points:
    292
    Likes:
    +11,132

    Megatron is an opportunist, like I previously said. I do think Megatron wants to BOTH restore Cybertron and rule over it and/or another planet(s). However, it's likely there are many ways for technologically advanced civilizations, like the Transformers, to restore Cybertron. Because the Transformers are low in number compared to before the war, they need either 1) help from another species, whether that means enslavement or cooperation and/or 2) advanced technology, i.e. the Allspark, Staff of Power to drain Unicron, etcetera.

    Yes, the Sun Harvester destroying the Sun would mean humans couldn't be enslaved...but that massive amount of energy and created Energon could certainly be used to help restore Cybetron. Again, you need either some sort of advanced technology that doesn't involve a large amount of labor, or you need a lot of labor.

    Also, as long as Cybertron doesn't get fully destroyed, there always exist a possibility of its revival in some way, shape, or form, even if an initial plan to restore it fails. Neither Sentinel's plan nor The Fallen's plan automatically result in the destruction of Cybertron, even if it gets warped through the Space Bridge in DotM, because the Autobots destroy the Pillar.

    Just because a faction, like the Decepticons, exists, it doesn't mean that all members of that faction are unified in every way. Nor does it mean individual Decepticons can't change in their goals, motivations, or other ideas.

    Finally, whether one likes it or not, Transformers movies are inspired by cartoons in which Megatron and the Decepticons hatched plan after to plan to get Energon, conquer Earth and/or Cybertron, destroy the Autobots, or even destroy Earth or Cybertron in some cases. That is what the original cartoon entailed, and the movies merely follow in their footsteps. These different Decepticon plans in different movies don't ruin the brand or anything of nature. On the contrary, this makes the Bay movies and the Bay Decepticons more like G1 and not less, regardless of whether one thinks that's a good thing or not, but I am merely describing and not judging. And I think that is what is most important: the ability to describe things and not merely judge.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  7. Chaos Studios

    Chaos Studios Traditional Animator/Storyboard Artist

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Posts:
    823
    Trophy Points:
    172
    Likes:
    +2,250
    All this effort put into trying to make sense of a franchise while the creators couldn't give two fucks about the continuity really makes me sad. Like I truly wish it was worth arguing over for me.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  8. GitGudGabe

    GitGudGabe v e h i c o n

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2016
    Posts:
    955
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    172
    Likes:
    +2,729
    Good points about the distinction between trf and cemetery wind, I haven't seen the films in a minute.
    Ah, error on my end, my bad. But there is still a continuity error regarding Ironhide.
    [​IMG]
    He's listed as having died in Chicago. He's clearly gunned down by sentinel in Washington, which is something the government knows about, as Lennox was there.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Johnson the third

    Johnson the third Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2023
    Posts:
    971
    Trophy Points:
    147
    Location:
    A land down under
    Likes:
    +3,230
    tbf in the bayverse, washington dc looks exactly like chicago
    [​IMG]
    except for when it doesn't
    [​IMG]
    also sorry the "huh??? what??? what even gave you that idea? are you making things up to get mad at???" was way too aggressive
     
    • Like Like x 3
  10. Insurgent

    Insurgent The Amazing Tango Mysterio

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2017
    Posts:
    10,408
    Trophy Points:
    277
    Location:
    Bonnie Ol' England
    Likes:
    +59,344
    On tf1, megatron wanted to get the allspark to restore cybertron. Quick and simple. In rotf, the plan was to harvest the sun and use that energy to give birth to hatchlings and have them help restore cybertron. If that worked, the enslave humanity plan wouldn't be needed. But it did fail. Also, the matrix hadn't been found until the end of rotf so megatron wouldn't have been able to ressurect sentinel even if he wanted at that time. When the harvester hatchling plan failed, but the matrix was now in play, megatron switched to that plan.

    They also knew the autobots were closing in on sam. Getting one of their humans to buy them would take far too long, they needed quick results to keep the glasses out of autobot hands.

    The truce was implied to have been set up towards the end of the war, after the fallen had left cybertron. And if the fallen did know about the truce, sentinel was in stasis lock in the ark. Without the matrix to restore him, sentinel was basically dead and irrelevant.

    Humans have a better understanding of how earth and humanity politics and money works. Yes, you can spend time learning this and getting decepticons in there, but its easier to get humans who are already in those positions.

    Some of us just like talking about the movies and their stories. The continuity is no worse than some other series of tfs (looking at you sunbow). If it saddens you so much to see people engaging with the movies, there's a very simple solution. Just don't look at those threads.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. TheSoundwave

    TheSoundwave Softy Crime Lord

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2013
    Posts:
    8,235
    News Credits:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    287
    Location:
    My Criminal Empire (Note: No Crime Allowed)
    Likes:
    +16,497
    Was enslaving the humans even part of Megatron's plan before crashing on Earth? I always got the feeling his plan was just "get the space bridge technology", and the idea of enslaving the humans was something they came up with during the events of DOTM. I could be wrong because I haven't seen the movies in a while, but I don't recall that being some big plan that goes back thousands of years.

    Also, Sentinel and the space bridge didn't resurface until after the events of ROTF (they were probably presumed lost or destroyed). Why would Megatron stick to a seemingly obsolete plan that's not feasible anymore when there's a perfectly good new plan right there? Makes sense for his plans to change based on circumstances.

    Finally, the two plans aren't really mutually exclusive. If you have the space bridge you can go anywhere and conquer any civilization in the universe. Megatron probably just thought "eh, if the space bridge ever resurfaces we can always find some other species to enslave".
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. Chaos Studios

    Chaos Studios Traditional Animator/Storyboard Artist

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Posts:
    823
    Trophy Points:
    172
    Likes:
    +2,250
    Ok now that you mention it, that's a fair point regarding g1. I guess I wished the franchise would atleast be better in handling this stuff than in the past but eh.
    And I have no issue with people discussing this, I just feel like we're coming up with so many great theories that in my odd mind it feels like these movies haven't "earned it" in a sense. But that's just me, I enjoy the theories and discussions, just wish things were better.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Insurgent

    Insurgent The Amazing Tango Mysterio

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2017
    Posts:
    10,408
    Trophy Points:
    277
    Location:
    Bonnie Ol' England
    Likes:
    +59,344
    Ah, then I apologise, I misinterpreted the tone of your post. Too many times have I seen folks commenting how its a waste of time putting more thought into these than filmmakers did and intend it as a sort of insult. I too love talking theories and figuring out plotholes. Even when people point out plotholes that aren't actually plotholes.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  14. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout ...and I'll whisper "No."

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Posts:
    45,572
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    467
    Location:
    [REDACTED]
    Likes:
    +41,540
    ...and somehow Optimus Prime didn't know any of them. Kind of important how the whole point of searching for the AllSpark was supposedly to bring it back to restore Cybertron in the first film, and after its destruction to kill Megatron, Prime's monologue at the end establishes that Cybertron can not be rebuilt.

    Until it magically somehow is four films later but that's the magic of retcons, isn't it?

    Not having millions of transformers to rebuild the planet just means the rebuilding process would go slower, it would not make the task impossible.

    Except the whole point of DOTM's plot was the Decepticons and Sentinel were too egotistical to actually clean up their own damn war? None of that Energon from the Sun was going to be put to rebuilding Cybertron, it was to make a new Decepticon army (or more of it since a bunch of dude just show up at the final battle anyway, to say nothing of all the dudes also on the moon that didn't get invited to go to the middle east).

    The problem isn't Cybertron getting destroyed, because it wasn't, the problem is the fact it became a dead world. It can not sustain life, that was the whole point of trying to get the AllSpark back, because that was it's battery.

    The movies do not suggest this. At all. The closest is maybe the back of the Voyager Starscream box where it just details how he'd like to stab Megatron to death, as is traditional for all Starscreams. Beyond that, there's literally nothing to suggest anything more than generic badguys who just follow orders and fight to the death.

    Since when has "inspired" been the same as "the same level of writing quality"? The G1 cartoon was not written to be an epic narrative with a robust backstory, a developed setting that some aspects are on par with the greater Star Wars expanded universe, or to even have a meaninful plot. It was a shitty Saturday morning commerical meant to sell rebranded toys to children and its own writers said they crapped out those plots in a week to cash the checks.

    And when it comes to the movies, they're multi-million dollar affairs. So maybe saying that they actually ARE more like G1 than not is condemnation by faint praise, because G1 lives more out of pure nostalgia than actual quality, and if a movie costs hundreds of millions of dollars, then maybe the expectations should be higher than having characters that are so one note that you get more actual character on the back of a toy package bio paragraph than in a two-and-a-half hour movie glorifying humans.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  15. TAKTIC00L

    TAKTIC00L ⚠ This User is being monitored by the CIA

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2023
    Posts:
    683
    Trophy Points:
    147
    Likes:
    +1,514
    Enslaving humanity was likely a last resort, because if they won in ROTF the sun wouldve given enough energon to support the hatchlings, which in turn would completely eliminate the need for humans to rebuild cybertron.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  16. Galvatross

    Galvatross Dom Dom, Yes Yes Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2013
    Posts:
    7,476
    Trophy Points:
    292
    Likes:
    +11,132
    Who cares?

    For one, why does Optimus have to know any of them? There are Shrekrets to the Onionverse we were never meant to know...

    Two, while I am not arguing for everything in earlier entries in a series being a lie, at the same time, the nature of existence itself means evidence about earlier times gets unearthed as time goes on. I don't care if it later turns out there's another way to restore Cybertron besides the Allspark. I care about entertaining movies being made. Period.

    You have to consider the context. I'm talking about the timeframe in which a catastrophic, Earth-destroying event in a fictional action movie would take place. Decepticons placing little pieces of Cybertron back to together over of millions of years does not make for an ogre-the-top action movie.

    I didn't see Sentinel and the Cons being too egotistical to clean up their own mess. On the contrary, Sentinel says, "What war destroyed, we can rebuild, but only if we join with the Decepticons." After he says this, he says how they were gods on Cybertron, and how the humans should serve them or perish. I do not see ANY of these statements as indicating they aren't willing to clean up their own mess. I see it as Sentinel merely viewing himself as higher than humanity, not an unwillingness to work toward rebuilding Cybertron. On the contrary, I see Sentinel and Megatron as willing to do the work.




    To quote The Fallen, "The Cube was merely a vessel. Its power, its knowledge can never be destroyed. It can only transform."

    Except we are shown Decepticons turning to the Autobots. Jetfire. Wheelie. They have their reasons. I am not saying most Decepticons aren't fanatical devotees of The Fallen and/or Megatron...most of them are based on what we see...but it shows that some Decepticons can have different opinions than their leaders.


    Since when has "inspired" been the same as "the same level of writing quality"? The G1 cartoon was not written to be an epic narrative with a robust backstory, a developed setting that some aspects are on par with the greater Star Wars expanded universe, or to even have a meaninful plot. It was a shitty Saturday morning commerical meant to sell rebranded toys to children and its own writers said they crapped out those plots in a week to cash the checks.

    I mean, there are robots in the Bay movies that get more to their personalities and characters in their bios...but the reverse is also true: some robots get much more to them in the movies than in the bios, with Cogman, Lockdown, Galvatron, and Sentinel Prime being good examples. Every piece of Transformers fiction with a dozen or more named robot characters is going to have some robots who get less to them as characters than others. It's inevitable. If anything, I think the Bay movies often balance the robot characters better than given credit. The movie that balances them the best in my opinion? AoE.

    As for "two-and-a-half hour glorifying humans," human beings who are not CGI are naturally going to be in a movie more than CGI robots.

    Finally, why does everything have to be praise or condemnation? Why can't we simply describe. Regardless of whether we think the movies are "good" or "bad" Transformers movies, I think we should try to understand them on their own terms, and if we are to judge them, then judge them for what they are trying to be and not for not being the imaginary movies fans want them to be. I can understand people not liking the Transformers movies. I don't understand disliking the movies, because they aren't the movies they never promised to be.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  17. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout ...and I'll whisper "No."

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Posts:
    45,572
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    467
    Location:
    [REDACTED]
    Likes:
    +41,540
    The whole point of enslaving the humans is because the Decepticons WERE NOT going to rebuild Cybertron. That was the whole point!
     
    • Like Like x 3
  18. Galvatross

    Galvatross Dom Dom, Yes Yes Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2013
    Posts:
    7,476
    Trophy Points:
    292
    Likes:
    +11,132
    At no point do the movies imply the Decepticons and Sentinel would not be involved in rebuilding Cybertron. The movie itself establishes that not many planets offer seven billion workers.

    It is true that DotM does not go into detail into how that would work, but that's a different beast entirely.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  19. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout ...and I'll whisper "No."

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Posts:
    45,572
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    467
    Location:
    [REDACTED]
    Likes:
    +41,540
    Other than Sentinel quite literally talking about how the Cybertronians were once like gods and were above menial labor?
     
    • Like Like x 3
  20. Galvatross

    Galvatross Dom Dom, Yes Yes Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2013
    Posts:
    7,476
    Trophy Points:
    292
    Likes:
    +11,132
    It says the former but not the latter. It never says or implies they were above menial labor. The comment about gods has nothing to do about menial labor and everything to do with Sentinel thinking Cybertronians, and Primes especially, are above humans.

    I am willing to bet that most people value human lives over the lives of other animals, especially small animals like mice and insects and stuff. However, that humans generally consider themselves superior to other Earthly creatures doesn't mean that humans never do menial labor to take care of pets, poultry, and livestock, nor does it mean that all humans are above doing menial work to dispose of creatures they consider pests. The superiority complex of humans doesn't mean they are all above doing menial labor to care for beings they consider lesser.
     
    • Like Like x 6