Elaborate Bay

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Apocalyptic PhD, Jul 7, 2014.

  1. Apocalyptic PhD

    Apocalyptic PhD Adamite

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    The Bay-Formers Lore

    The Live-Action Lore always led me scratches on my head, I signed up on this forum just to discuss that.

    1. Why did Megatron go to earth in the first place? was it to meet up with Sentinel? or was he getting the Allspark for the Fallen?

    2. Why does Optimus know about the seed and explains it to Cade in AoE when he clearly states he doesn't know anything else about Cybertron's history other than the Allspark being shoot out into space in RotF?

    3. I thought the Allspark created the Transformers, all of a sudden we have Quintessons and then the Seed that supposedly created "Transformium" It's pointless to have an Allspark if you have the Seed and the other way around.

    4. What happened to Nest after Transformers 4? Why does a Faction in the CIA freely hunt Autobots whilst no one, not the government or all those secret agencies and associates allied with Autobots not notice a single thing? What I wanted to see in AoE was Lennox and Epps and Nest sort of standing up to Cemetery Wind and exposing their criminal activities towards the Autobots! Here on planet earth, we have conflicts, we have those who stand up for the Jews and defending their right for their land while we have those who are labelled anti-semites whilst complaining to Israel about their crimes towards Palestine, and more! there are conflicts, there are differences in opinion! Humans are not stupid and simplistic as the movie puts us out to be! I mean seriously, Humans being Autobot-Phobic is not new, in RoTF Galloway was kicked off the plane with the VIP excuse while Lennox is operating on his own as a Nest Member, even RoTF does this better than AoE.

    5. Can the All-spark convert regular metal Transformium? Why didn't Sector-7 use the All-Spark to be KSI in the first place? Considering they were able to transform a simple nimble phone in the first film into a Cybertronian using the all-spark. You don't need to hunt poor Autobots after their tragedy of dying one by one for puny organics if you can just use the All-Spark shards to convert Transformium, you don't need the stupid seed. Love of God, you don't need that damn seed. Not even the Creators/Quintessons.

    6. Since everyone loves to insist that IDW is canon to the movies, how do you fit in Primus (Who appears in the Movie IDW) with the whole Quintesson creating Transformers with the Seeds thing? You can't just slap and slither more plot-lore details from the movies forever. I'm starting to disregard IDW as non-canon now, seriously.

    I'm a big Bay-Formers fan but this has got to stop....
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2014
  2. User_136440

    User_136440 Well-Known Member

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    I just took it that Lockdown had explained the whole thing to him while he was in captivity. In the way that movie villains do when they're so impressed with their own work that they just have to spill it out to their enemies.
     
  3. scoobsterinc

    scoobsterinc Scoobs

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    If you put a few things together in your mind you can get a few answers.

    Megatron planned to meet sentinel originally but decided it would be easier to go after the allspark or the fallen ordered him to do so. Then when both megatron and the fallen's plan fail megatron goes on to try the sentinel plan but he had to change it slightly as sentinel was in sleep mode. (Probably why megatron didn't do the plan in the first place).

    The seed could be just a legend or optimus did know about it but thought they were to rare to worry about. Plus if optimus doesn't know anything to fancy about cybertronian history doesn't mean he wouldn't know about the seed.

    The creators could of created the allspark as a easy way to create life instead of having to build each and every cybertronion. They could of programmed it to create transformers and store data about cybertronian history. Again the seeds could be rare and hard to locate and they would have to build transformers with the metal they produce instead of just making living transformers out already built objects. (So its easier to use the allspark)


    These theories may have a few plot holes but I feel that we might find out more about it in the next film. Plus I didn't think it was confirmed that the quints are the creators?
     
  4. Apocalyptic PhD

    Apocalyptic PhD Adamite

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    I just updated my post with more questions.
     
  5. Axilus Prime

    Axilus Prime Well-Known Member

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    1. His original plan was to meet up with Sentinel, but Sentinel was killed when the Ark was shot, so that plan was abandoned and he never came to Earth with that intention. He came to get the Cube, yes.
    2. The seed was completely irrelevant to ROTF, so he never mentioned it in that conversation. He said the only recorded history of their race was in the Allspark and lost with its destruction. He did not say he knew absolutely nothing about their history. He just didn't know who the Fallen was.
    3. It's possible the Creators made and programmed the Allspark, or that the Allspark was only responsible for the creation of some Transformers while the Creators made others. Or it could be that the Allspark creating their race was a myth. (which would explain why it never created sentient robots, only feral ones, if this is not the case then it would have to be because of the fact that these robots were created by accidents involving violently shaking the Cube) The specifics will have to be sorted out once more is revealed about the Creators.
    4. The general public, and the government and military with the exception of Cemetery Wind, mistakenly believed the Autobots were exiled peacefully and that the Decepticons were the only ones being hunted, demonstrated repeatedly in the movie, most notably in the scene where Darcy thinks Ratchet was a Decepticon.

    The movies very easily make sense if you pay attention and remember details well.
     
  6. Axilus Prime

    Axilus Prime Well-Known Member

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    Oh, now you went and added more questions. Well...

    5. The Allspark is probably made of Transformium, and it was destroyed. Its shards seem to have been absorbed into Jetfire and Megatron when used on them, so no one has access to them anymore. Even if they weren't absorbed, that still doesn't mean anyone has them, so no one can use them.
    7. The IDW comics are not canon to the movies, as stated by Bay and co. on several occasions. They contradict both each other and the movies in some ways anyway.
    8. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Allspark can make transformium. It simply seems to be able to program regular metals to take on new shapes.
    9. That's not a plot hole, that's just YOUR preference, which was not carried out in the movie. In addition, they were unaware of everything Cemetery Wind was doing, so how could they stand up to them?
     
  7. scoobsterinc

    scoobsterinc Scoobs

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    It seems the allspark can transform tech into transformium but cannot simply just turn a cube of iron into transformium as the creators (If they created the allspark) didn't program it to do so. Plus KSI didn't have a allspark shard to use as there was none left. Plus a shard can only be used once.

    I don't read the IDW movieverse but if there connected then I suppose you could say the creators converted a entire planet used tons of shards and then gave it life using the allspark?

    The creators would need to find a planet with technology they could use to make them and plus without the right parts they will be feral, like animals. Plus we don't know if the allspark was fully created at the time the creators were using seeds.

    Lenox and Epps may have been imprisoned or hunted down like the autobots and then they could of claimed they were planning to do a terrorist attack or something along those lines.
     
  8. Axilus Prime

    Axilus Prime Well-Known Member

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    ...And now you went and removed some of the questions, which I already answered. I'm gonna get off now, since it's evident at this point that you pay very little attention during the movies, and you keep changing your post!
     
  9. Apocalyptic PhD

    Apocalyptic PhD Adamite

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    Thanks for the points, I'll reference your answers to my friends on other Community Sites I'm in touch with who have the same questions.
    Yes that's why I asked these questions.

    I'm Obsessive Compulsive, and you're not the first to notice this. Regards
     
  10. scoobsterinc

    scoobsterinc Scoobs

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    And just to add on sector 7 didn't know what the allsparks full power was and didn't understand transformium (And probably didn't know it existed). So they didn't see any positives to doing so.
     
  11. uruseiranma

    uruseiranma Well-Known Member

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    To really get to the point of Megatron's plan, I think I need to see a diagram. There's really no way someone can explain that to me, and not make me start poking holes in it.
     
  12. TrailbreakerADK

    TrailbreakerADK Defense Strategist

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    Because these movies only have a rudimentary level of continuity between them, with each subsequent film seemingly forgetting what happened between the first two films before it.

    For example, DOTM seems to forget about the AllSpark or anything about Decepticons being really tough to kill. AOE, meanwhile, completely forgot about the massacre that happened Egypt. It seems like the Battle of Chicago is the only thing people ever fall back on in this movie.

    No wonder Optimus lost his faith in humanity. They all have the memory of a goldfish.
     
  13. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Well-Known Member

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    Where was the complaining about continuity problems when ROTF and DOTM were released?
     
  14. Apocalyptic PhD

    Apocalyptic PhD Adamite

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    That's kind of funny, LOL. But so does Optimus for not referencing Sam after his three Messianic/Heroic doings in the past three films.

    Megatron may have planned to revive Sentinel with the All-spark if he won the war at Mission City 2007. Actually there are various hypothesis and fan-speculations to explain Fallen-Megatron-Sentinel-Earth problem, by far my favorite explanation was this guy who posted a comment on youtube exclaiming that Sentinel was originally mean't to help Megatron destroy The Fallen with the potential of the All-Spark combined with the Space-Bridge Pillars. IDW is not canon since our intellectually prepared poster pointed that out, no canon-lore explanation regardless. AoE explains that Megatron started the Chicago war (With Sentinel who was not referenced) I thought I saw Sentinel's body at one point in the film but it looked like a protoform version of Sentinel, I might be confusing it for Galvatron's protoform.
     
  15. uruseiranma

    uruseiranma Well-Known Member

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    Just like American news stories:

    *happens in faraway lands*

    "...meh, poor people. Pass the potatoes, would ya son? And take those earphones off!"


    *happens right on your doorstep*

    "I am OUTRAGED!! What are my tax dollars paying for if my City is destroyed by rampaging spacebots!!? GET EM OUTTA HERE, OR PULVERIZE EM!! I can't afford a new set of earphones for my son anymore!!"
     
  16. Blurr02

    Blurr02 Quickdraw Master

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    :lol :lol 
     
  17. Apocalyptic PhD

    Apocalyptic PhD Adamite

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    1. That makes sense, I like that Sentinel coincidentally hit the moon orbiting the same planet that Megatron was retrieving the All-Spark. Maybe Sentinel was also after the All-Spark at the time. Problem is I don't know when Sentinel arrived at the Earth's Moon.

    2. Optimus may have gained knowledge from being revived by the Matrix or combining with Jet-Fire, The Fallen tells Optimus "Die like your brothers" when Prime replies "They were your brothers too." The Matrix might be linked with the seed and the Quintessons (Who knows?) when he doesn't even know who the fallen is earlier in the film.

    3. That's a good way to look at it.

    I find it interesting that the Original Primes in Sam's spiritual dream mentioned Optimus as his 'last' descendant, not built by Quintessons. Unless the Primes are also ignorant of the Quintessons and have their knowledge controlled by the Quintessons themselves. I find it interesting that RoTF takes the Bay-Lore with Polytheistic-Spiritual themes while AoE takes it Prometheus-Aliens themed. Bay might be mixing supernatural with aliens as a genre. If this is true, then the Quintessons are capable of creating Primes that are able to talk to Humans in the after-life and bring humans back to life from shock.

    4. So that's why the leader of Cemetery Wind said "There are no Good Robots or Bad Robots! It's just us and them, and you chose them." it was all confusion that the military and organization powers should have avoided had they been thorough. That makes sense, this stuff happens in real life when you think the US Government is very thorough with their stuff. (No Political Joke intended.)

    There are other subjects I'd like to discuss here, I have a short list but that's all for now.
     
  18. Kraken

    Kraken Is a vegiesaurus, Lex. Veteran

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    He was in pursuit of the All-Spark. Sentinel was to follow with the pillars to set up a space bridge from wherever the All-Spark landed back to Cybertron.

    The knowledge from the All-Spark has since been transferred into the Matrix via Sam Witwicky's head. Optimus is now a lot more knowledgeable about Cybertron's history then he was in ROTF.

    The All-Spark cannot create life out of thin air. It needs a mechanical vessel to give life to. The Seed creates a perfect molecularly unstable metal out of organic material. Presumably that metal is then crafted into machines. The All-Spark then gives life and sentience to those machines.

    NEST was disbanded after Chicago, and the Autobots advised to go and hide. Public opinion was very much against any aliens, Autobot and Decepticon. It would not have been wise for the government to publically back one group of aliens. The public have most likely been told that they left the planet and any remaining aliens are dangerous.

    No one could stand up against criminal activities against the Autobots who had been given immunity, because no one except Cemetery Wind and Lockdown knew that the Autobots were being targeted. Why do you think Attinger was so keen to get his hands on Cade? He was going to expose to the government that Autobots were being targeted despite the President and Chief of Staff being big fans.

    *Sigh* S7 barely understood anything about the All-Spark. They knew that they could channel it's energy to give life to machines and turn them into savage uncontrollable killing machines. That's about it really. They had no idea how to do anything else with it apart from that.

    You... you do realise that the All-Spark is gone, don't you? Like completely?

    Normal machines brought to life by the All-Spark are mindless savage beasts. Machines created from Transformium and brought to life by the All-Spark are intelligent, sentient beings. Transformium is created by the seed.


    Fit in what? That he was the first Cybertronian brought into being by the All-Spark according to ancient and half forgotten legend? So basically he'd be the first one that the Creators brought on-line. What's wrong with that precisely?

    Can't be that big a fan really. Quite a lot appears to have passed you by.

    (Yes that probably was unnecessary, but I can't be bothered to dress it up today)
     
  19. Apocalyptic PhD

    Apocalyptic PhD Adamite

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    I have a problem with KSI just being a revamped version of Sector-7 when Sector-7 could have accomplished everything KSI attempted to do in the first place, in which they did reverse engineer vibrators, toasters and video games from Megatron. They could have studied the said feral instincts based Cybertronians like what KSI did with corpses of robots.

    6. Yes, I know. I do resent Comic queers insisting and even using it as a source for the Bay-Lore, you just can't do that in my book.

    7. I believe the Transformium concept has not been well established, it in-fact may seem to contrast with the concept of the All-Spark really, but bay was fine with the concept of a Seed and Transformium for a reason. Guess this is one of those "We'll see in the fifth movie on 2016" conclusions.

    8. I don't know what a Plot-Whole (admittedly) since I realized I heard of that word thrown around by G-Whiners and Haters all the time of any franchise I look upon, so I decided to edit it out since I just researched the proper said terminology a second ago, I won't magnify this Pseudo-Intellectually however.

    Regarding Kraken, various points were already established here. (It's getting redundant) I was excited when I first posted that, thus is why I haven't thought of my first post due to the events of my life this day I had a good mood to not think at all. (Plus Refer to my Obsessive Compulsiveness) thus I edited out quite a lot.
     
  20. Kraken

    Kraken Is a vegiesaurus, Lex. Veteran

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    You haven't edited shit out. The six points I have responded to are the six points that are currently in your original post. In fact your last edit was two hours before !i even opened this thread.

    Having now read the entire thread, I now see it's a waste of time even bothering with you.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2014