Do you folks actually hate on MTMTE/LL?

Discussion in 'Transformers Comics Discussion' started by NTPrime, Sep 20, 2019.

  1. pluto

    pluto Well-Known Member

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    Thanks so much for your post PE! Its worth remembering that obfuscating meaning is one of the key elements of supremacist politics. Walter Benjamin writes about this in “the work of art in the age of mechanical reproduction.”

    One has a moral obligation to be informed so as to function in civic life without unconsciously harming others. Passing judgement on the past and the present is therefore a moral obligation we have to each other, but the obligation comes with a cost biblically gestured to as the sword of Damocles. To give up on judging our peers (historical or otherwise) is to allow and even beg for domination (and not even in a fun way).


    All that said, calling out individuals is rarely productive because of the above dynamics except in the worst cases. Describing systems or environments as supremacist or whatever is productive because in the best sense it allows people to realign. This is why hanlon’s razor is also bunkum. The difference between a malicious act and an ignorant one only matters to the individual conscience, to the wider group of people the effect is cumulative and undifferentiated. Look at Edward Said’s “Orientalism” as a classic on this point.

    As for that letter from the 70s. Its clearly fucked considering the political environment of the day. Whether or not the individual actor also wears a klan hood in his spare time is irrelevant; his letter is evidence of a larger environment that we know full and well was a racist one (latter day civil rights movement). The same goes for the goings on throughout this board. Individual actors might not have been this or that, but the cumulative effect was pretty nasty.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2019
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  2. PlanckEpoch

    PlanckEpoch Just a regular old plumbus

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    Man, I've got a lot of stuff to start reading. I'd love to. I'd have to add it to the stack of things I gotta read!
     
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  3. K2flygurl

    K2flygurl Well-Known Member

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    I like to pretend that issue doesn’t exist.

    Same here. I hate what they did to poor Prowl. Thank Primus that original Prowl has no connection to IDW Prowl. I don’t mind the table flipping thing though.

    Who? James Roberts? I hope not. He seem like a nice guy.
     
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  4. Nelomaxwell

    Nelomaxwell Till all are one

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    Whenever i see the phrase go back to Africa I assume I'm dealing with a racist. I've heard it too many times followed by the N-word or something similar.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2019
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  5. K2flygurl

    K2flygurl Well-Known Member

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    I hate that phrase go back to Africa. All humans originated from Africa, so how about everybody goes back to Africa. Also the people who tell those to go back to Africa are being hypocrites because they’re ancestors came from somewhere else. It would make much more sense if Native Americans say that. I never had anyone say that me.
     
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  6. shamanking282

    shamanking282 Well-Known Member

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    That’s why I think the people who’ve responded to this post earlier with “I don’t see anything wrong/political/racist in this letter” are hilarious. The writer wasn’t even being subtle. He literally said the Canadian was the only acceptable new addition to the cast.

    I get being nostalgic for the original team, but the first five X-Men had the personalities of cardboard cutouts before Claremont came along.
     
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  7. TheWarPathGuy

    TheWarPathGuy Merc With A Mouth

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    Why does Robert's revolve most of the plot and characters around Prowl?
     
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  8. raindance773

    raindance773 Well-Known Member

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    I am pretty sure he was only okay with Angel because Angel could wrap his wings around himself and appear like a homo sapien. He didn’t like Beast or Angel if they didn’t look like a WASP.
     
  9. shamanking282

    shamanking282 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if Beast's exclusion was a bigotry thing. I'm pretty sure he was already an Avenger by that point and the writer may have been cool with him there.
     
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  10. Nelomaxwell

    Nelomaxwell Till all are one

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    As a black guy I've heard it said and had it said to me. Idk where You're from or your background but it's a common racial epithet.
     
  11. ProtectronPrime

    ProtectronPrime Subjectively Objective

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    If you're not familiar with the term, or you're simply not aware, it can happen that you say something that's perceived as racist when it's not. For example, I used to work with a company called Dick Nigra Inspections. People would often accidentally mispronounce the name with disastrous results. That was @GoLion's whole point with his asserting that he'd just prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt as opposed to assuming racism.

    However, as a minority I can verify that sometimes you just don't FEEL like giving anyone the benefit of the doubt because after the one billionth time of being 1) told to "go back where you came from"; 2) asked if you know how to dance/"do karate"/make tortillas/whatever; 3) spoken to in a horrifying and embarrassing accent, you can lose your shit. So there's that.

    Prowl just got picked to be a giant asshole that was the center of everything in MTMTE. It had to be someone. During the mutineer's saga, Getaway got the idiot ball and ran with it pretty hard so that everything post his appearance was "his fault". Roberts has an odd habit of making ONE person the cause of all the strife, and also making that person a horrid, morally bankrupt asshole, so as to why Prowl was first and sole cause for most of the shenanigans that followed, I'd say it's a stylistic choice or some kind of limitation. Depends on if you like Roberts or not.
     
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  12. GoLion

    GoLion Haters everywhere

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    Just to clarify my previous position. I'm not saying the letter didn't have problems. It did. My only bone of contention is that I chose to believe the writer of the letter was coming from a place of ignorance over malice.

    Half of the characters he wanted to send back to wherever they came from were white characters. If he only said Storm should go back and everyone else can stay I would be in full agreement with you. The point is that the writer didn't say that.

    Absence of evidence isn't evidence. I choose to see the guy as an idiot, not a racist.

    Is saying 'Go back to Africa' a horrible statement? Yes. Did the writer of that letter mean it in that context? I don't know. For all I know he could have been 13 and used a term that he didn't fully understand had the negative connotation.

    When I was a kid, I would call my friends the F-word (homosexual). I didn't have the slightest idea of the negative connotation behind the word. To me, at that age, it meant a weak or wimpy persont. It was only when I grew up and learned a little more about the world did I learn to understand the weight behind certain words. I choose to give the writer of that letter the benefit of the doubt. That's all.

    And before anyone jumps down my throat. I am also an ethnic and racial minority. I've had insults thrown at me too.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
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  13. ProtectronPrime

    ProtectronPrime Subjectively Objective

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    Speaking of incorrect use of phrase... generally speaking "jumps (someone's) bones" means "have sex with them".

    I mean, not to say that public discourse isn't sexy, but your post wasn't THAT good. :p 
     
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  14. GoLion

    GoLion Haters everywhere

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    :p  I wasn't sure if it was jump my bones or jump down my throat. My bad. lmao.

    I corrected the error. lolol
     
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  15. Necromaster

    Necromaster FEAR ME MORTALS

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    God, that reminds me of one of my biggest frustrations regarding LL: Getaway's utter character assassination. To make something clear, I don't mind the idea of him being kind of an asshole, but he actually had some points against Rodimus and his entourage that gave him a legitimate foothold as the new captain of the LL. Problem is, Roberts apparently didn't like that people thought Getaway maybe kind of had a point, so he not only wrote him to be increasingly morally corrupt, but wrote everyone under him to become incredibly stupid (like when they see damning evidence that shows Getaway tried to have Rodimus and his crew straight-up murdered and he tells them to leave... they just do instead of piling on the questions) to make sure everyone was still on the side of Team Rodimus. It's sad because having two diametrically opposed groups facing down with each other, Rodimus' foolhardy idealism vs Getaway's stark but morally driven pragmatism, would have been far more interesting. But no, Getaway had to be turned into a strawman villain.

    Did I want Getaway to be a good person? Not really. I don't really think he necessarily needed to be redeemable. But he could have been so much more complex and interesting than what we wound up with. The Autobot who instigated the mutiny and tried to use Tailgate as a sacrifical lamb out of moral qualms for keeping Megatron, former leader of the Decepticons, aboard their starship... is reduced to a glory-seeking idiot who can just shoot the nudge gun forever to erase all the memories (because Roberts forgot how the nudge gun worked) and team up with all the other bad guys despite being diametrically opposed to them beforehand because this shit's gotta be wrapped up, yo. (...Which to be entirely fair to Roberts, I can't hold that one completely against him. It's clear that no one working at IDW was happy with how suddenly the reboot was coming, but until the NDAs expire we won't know what kind of shit went down behind the scenes.)
     
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  16. ProtectronPrime

    ProtectronPrime Subjectively Objective

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    I concur. For whatever reason, Roberts seems to like the idea of moral ambiguity. He never really stuck the landing on it to me. For the most part, it was that he'd make a character engage in all kinds of terrible things and "decide" if the person was good or bad notwithstanding their actions. So Prowl was a "good guy" despite being a horrible person who in all likelihood killed way more people in cold blood than Getaway. Nevertheless, Getaway, whose primary damage seemed to be an overt messiah complex as opposed to Prowl simply knowing better than everyone how everything is supposed to be (totally different, y'all!) deserved to be reduced to a mustache twirling villain and die a painful death by being eaten.

    However, that same self aggrandizing behavior and god complex egoism is OK when it's a cult of personality as opposed to just plain old cultist mentality. Rodimus is a good guy, despite people constantly dying whenever he has some kind of weird whim. Rodimus straight up /bullied/ many of his crew members into compliance through sheer force of personality. However, when a denoted "evil" person does it (Getaway)? Totally irredeemable.

    And that's my take on it. I've dealt with a LOT of weird people in life - people that have done terrible things but at the end of the day are still people. Maybe they're redeemable, maybe they're not, but when you get the full and complete story most people start to soften around the edges. Very few people in my experience, even the fanatics and crazies, are 100% bad. Roberts' writing gave the impression that your moral character is almost utterly arbitrary, and that as long as you're well liked enough or have intentions based in "fact" as opposed to "blind faith" whatever you do is justified and morally correct.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
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  17. GoLion

    GoLion Haters everywhere

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    What's worse is the way fans were heaping praise upon Roberts for that god awful writing.

    I seriously don't understand how people will defend him when the quality of the work slipped SO MUCH as the comic continued.
     
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  18. K2flygurl

    K2flygurl Well-Known Member

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    These YouTube videos explain Rodimus leadership and behavior.



    @ 6:36


    4:40
     
  19. K2flygurl

    K2flygurl Well-Known Member

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    Robert needed someone to put him in line.
     
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  20. NanakoPreame

    NanakoPreame Well-Known Member

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    And that someone was Barber. I mean, the first 20 issues that everyone praises happened when Barber was editor and when he left the position, the quality of mtmte started going down. I know some people like to have this narrative where Barber's an evil hack who was dragging poor ole James down and junk like that, but truth is, Barber was a part of why mtmte got so popular in the first place.
     
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