Do you consider Ultra Magnus to be an official Autobot Leader?

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by Matrixbeast, Oct 10, 2021.

  1. G1Prowl

    G1Prowl Prick, apparently

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2008
    Posts:
    12,573
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    312
    Likes:
    +9,449
    I'm sincerely hoping this is a Babelfish failure and that word salad is not your default method of posting.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Matrixbeast

    Matrixbeast Here comes a thought

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2010
    Posts:
    8,984
    Trophy Points:
    287
    Likes:
    +937
    Ebay:
    Having failures under one's belt doesn't mean incompetent. Keep in mind that the Decepticons had full control of the space bridge during the 20 years until the movie. So while the Autobots fortified on Earth, it gave them the perfect chance to take Cybertron, since the 'Bots would have to shuttle their way between planets unless they tried to hijack a space bridge for themselves.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  3. mrcreativename

    mrcreativename Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2012
    Posts:
    280
    Trophy Points:
    117
    Likes:
    +220
    Absolutely. He doesn't have time for it. But he is a leader. Just not THE leader.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. SouthtownKid

    SouthtownKid Headmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2011
    Posts:
    25,993
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    357
    Likes:
    +10,332
    My standard is them minimizing or ignoring the mythology set in place by the Sunbow writers in order to create more Japanese-style shows for a Japanese audience. I'm not saying they shouldn't have, and I'm not even saying I don't enjoy them (because I do, particularly Masterforce). But saying the Matrix isn't important for the supreme commander of the Autobots "because Star Saber" is like trying to apply the rules of cricket to baseball.

    It does if the failures account for 100% of his attempts.

    That's cool if you want to play word games. But you know that what's actually being discussed, despite the vague wording of the thread title, is the role of supreme commander. If we were talking about the best CEO of a company and you brought up a guy who was head of the party planning committee, because hey, that's a leader, too, you'd be on the same ground you are on now. That isn't what we're actually talking about.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Dark Starscream

    Dark Starscream w/Powermaster Cobra Cmdr.

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2002
    Posts:
    1,051
    Trophy Points:
    287
    Likes:
    +1,625
    Rank doesn't always equal "leader". Even Spike was a leader, before he became Fortress Maximus.

    And being Second-in-Command, and acting Supreme Commander at times, certainly qualifies Ultra Magnus "Leader" status.
     
  6. kronatron

    kronatron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Posts:
    2,225
    Trophy Points:
    262
    Likes:
    +2,476
    This. UM is the de-facto leader, that doesn't make him the supreme overlord commander of all things autobot-y. That's part of his charm. He's not had as much stuff blown up in his face to learn from like optimus and other more-abled leaders, yet.

    I like the dichotomy shown with Animated Magnus being far more experienced albeit more altruistic than optimus-in traing, and the Prime iteration of a battle-scarred by-the-book cap'n that can still put a pred down with one hand hacked off.
     
  7. beastbot16

    beastbot16 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2020
    Posts:
    34
    Trophy Points:
    47
    Likes:
    +63
    Yes. Under all ways you could classify a character as "Autobot Leader"
    1. He bared the Matrix, yes for a short time and lost the damn thing but it was still bestowed onto him by the previous commander
    2. He has held the rank of "Supreme Commander" on several occasions. Which is the rank held by Optimus and Rodimus when they were the leaders of the Autobots.
    3. He has lead multiple different sub-factions. If we are defining Autobot Leader as a character who leads a team of Autobots he fits this too.
    4. His official rank of "City Commander" is the highest rank in Autobot City on Earth.
    By all metrics he is ''a Autobot leader'' and has been ''the Autobot leader''. Either way Ultra Magnus, is a leader. Whether the bot or the fans like it or not.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Zentropy

    Zentropy Toys > Fiction

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2019
    Posts:
    3,605
    Trophy Points:
    212
    Location:
    Midwest USA
    Likes:
    +6,599
    He "bore" the Matrix (past tense of bear). But again, I personally think the Matrix is a lame indicator of leadership status. I realize it's canon, but I hated when they introduced that element to the story.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  9. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2017
    Posts:
    6,477
    Trophy Points:
    242
    Likes:
    +4,442
    Just playing devils advocate

    1. So did Scourge, and he was a decepticon , yes also for a short time but unlike Magnus…Scougre was whole to access sone of the power Of the matrix[
      seems pretty obvious to me we are talking the G1 Sunbow cartoon, in which he only held that title once and for a short while in the film
      Actually no sub factions to his credit within the original G1 cartoon, it was going to include marvel I do believe all we got was the wreckers
      That’s not exactly true…..It all depends on who else is at the city at the time……For example Optimus himself was at Autobots city during the start of “the rebirth”…..So obviously Magnus did not possess the highest rank at the city at the time in question
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. WishfulThinking

    WishfulThinking "Don't touch it! It's Zvil!"

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2014
    Posts:
    15,496
    News Credits:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    312
    Location:
    Wichita, KS
    Likes:
    +15,311
    Yes, but he also says:
    I'd argue that's the difference between Ultra Magnus and Scourge bearing the Matrix of Leadership. In order for the role of leadership to occur, there has to be a proclamation. Optimus proclaimed Ultra Magnus and, from within the Matrix and only in front of Galvatron and Unicron, he proclaimed Rodimus Prime by saying "Arise Rodimus Prime". While no other Autobots witnessed the latter proclamation, the result was evident by the reformatting of Hot Rod.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2017
    Posts:
    6,477
    Trophy Points:
    242
    Likes:
    +4,442
    Yes and I said …
    But if you really want to take what was obviously a very facetious statement made just for the fun of it and Debate it

    I'd would argue there’s something to be said about being effected, altered by the matrix , as well as being in commune and being able to use some of its power

    particularly when it compares to an in individual that, for all intents and purposes, was rejected by the matrix

    proclamation or not , the matrix did nothing for Magnus

    Keep in mind this was just a reply and not necessarily my stance on leader ship or by what means it can be assigned
     
  12. iacon45

    iacon45 Missing: One Custom Title

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2003
    Posts:
    7,471
    News Credits:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    332
    Likes:
    +5,030
    I see Magnus being more comfortable in a lesser role lperhaps like a lieutenant or maybe an advisor instead of an official leader of all Autobots. Going off the G1 cartoon, I remember the episode of Rebirth when Optimus left for Nebulos, you can see how uncomfortable he is with Prime leaving and putting him in charge. He even makes another comment later on after being defeated about Prime leaving.
     
  13. Bluetigatron

    Bluetigatron I'm a transformers fan, duh

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2020
    Posts:
    931
    Trophy Points:
    147
    Location:
    Redding Cali
    Likes:
    +3,163
    Instagram:
    Personaly I think of ultra magnus as a stand in for when op or rodimus need to go off and deal with whatever, second in command sort of thing, as well as the autobot city commander on earth. So he a leader, but bit the leader

    Screenshot_20211126-024117_Chrome.jpg
     
  14. beastbot16

    beastbot16 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2020
    Posts:
    34
    Trophy Points:
    47
    Likes:
    +63
    As stated by another on this thread. When Scourge stole the Matrix, he was not 'proclaimed' by Optimus, Rodimus, Alpha Trion or Ultra Magnus (all of whom have had the Authority to pass leadership) as the leader. And I'm speaking on UM in general... he has held the defacto leader position in several continuities. As for City Commander. When the Supreme Commander isn't there he is the highest ranking so yeah, it depends, you are right on that point. But it still stand since he commanded the defense of Autobot City in its entirety. Even when Prime arrived Ultra Magnus was most likely still leading the defense so Prime could kill Megatron.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. beastbot16

    beastbot16 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2020
    Posts:
    34
    Trophy Points:
    47
    Likes:
    +63
    One could argue that Optimus himself wasn't affected by the Matrix, in the Sunbow cartoon or Marvel Comics, which is where I see your main points coming from. He was rebuilt by Alpha Trion then the Matrix was placed inside him. Then tat beg the question what does the Matrix really do to a bot?
    Because it seems, at least in Hot Rod's case, to take a bot and put them in their peak physical condition. If you subscribe to the theory that UM and Dion are the same guy... then Trion, like he did with Optimus, built UM into peak physical condition. Or if don't subscribe to that theory... he is already insanely powerful without a powerboost from the Matrix.

    I really only brought up the Matrix in my og post because it seems that a lot of users have that as their definitive ''was he the leader or not'' question. If I am being entirely honest, I think the Matrix and the loop holes and the plot contrivances it bring are just ridiculous...
     
  16. beastbot16

    beastbot16 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2020
    Posts:
    34
    Trophy Points:
    47
    Likes:
    +63
    I agree it an asinine concept, however it is canon, and way to many users have that as their main criteria for Autobot Leadership and whether or not they carried the Matrix. So I put it in as the ''yes he is'' answer for the ones who think carrying the Matrix is the only thing a bot needs to do to be leader.
     
  17. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2017
    Posts:
    6,477
    Trophy Points:
    242
    Likes:
    +4,442
    I said I was obviously being very facetious for the fun of of it but again if a Debate is what you want….

    Yes you could try that argument, but it wouldn’t hold water very long ….well at least in the Sunbow cartoon in particular .A physical transformation isint the only way in which to be effected by the matrix

    In “dark awakening” Optimus Prime reported that tge matrix made him stronger while fighting Rodimus ,presumably that includes being faster and what ever other things that might make him a better fighter but he certainly said it made him stronger

    In “the rebirth” Optimus claims to be unable to come if with a plan to save the day, true enough he sights the lack of “wisdom” from not having the matrix but that was more foreshadowing as coming up with a plan would require more then just wisdom

    without wasting all are time breaking down everything a person needs to come up with good plans it all boils down to Intelligent, the matrix obviously boosted his intelligence a bit

    Sunbow Optimus himself INDEED affected by the Matrix

    And just as a side note, It was only heavily implied tgat Optimus was “rebuilt” by Alpha Trion , we were never shown by what method he completed the task

    As we saw in War Dawn when the Aerialbots were trying to convince Alpha to fix Orion, there were others being worked on in the lab and based on Alphas dialog and his tone of voice he seemed like he was ready to give up

    Prehaps it was placing the Matrix inside Orion that helped with the repairs, or did all of them….we just don’t know

    (yes I have a logical hypothesis for why Optimus never reverted back to Orion).

    We both know the comic book handled it differently…just look at Thunderwing, but even in the comics Optimus reported having the matrix inside him was like having an other life force with him

    It was really depicted like a bit of a symbiotic relationship, but more like that described in Star Trek DS9 then that of Marvels Venom

    I would never describe Ultra Magnus as “already insanely powerful” Nor would I agree that it’s only “power boost” (as you call it) is on the physical body
    I don’t completely disagree with you on that, Unlike you I think at times the idea is a bit asinine

    Like I pointed out earlier take a look at the episodes of the rebirth……Why would Optimus need the matrix to come up with a plan?…….It was like you didn’t even try to think of anything else

    On top of that the dialogue Used pretty much implies that he need the matrix to come up with every single plan he ever came up with

    Pretty ridiculous And asinine if you ask me, but as you pointed out…..it’s canon
    How well did tge proclamation from Optimus do Ultra Magnus?

    How well did the proclamation from Rodimus about the war ending in the film go?

    Megatron made Proclamations just about every episode

    they really don’t seem to be very much, particularly when the Proclamation Optimus made about UM came along with the words telling him it’s only a temporary job

    if he ever planed to really do it….But that’s a different argument
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
  18. WishfulThinking

    WishfulThinking "Don't touch it! It's Zvil!"

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2014
    Posts:
    15,496
    News Credits:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    312
    Location:
    Wichita, KS
    Likes:
    +15,311
    A proclamation, however ill-timed, is still a proclamation and seems to be the primary mode of Autobot leadership in both Sunbowverse and TOEIverse. The Matrix of Leadership is important but, as the episode where Scourge gets the Matrix and buffs out, it's clearly not the artifact itself nor its ability to reconfigure that makes an Autobot the Supreme Commander...but rather the Supreme Commander is the one charged with holding it and adding their wisdom to it.

    I'd also proffer that Scourge being affected as such was actually the Matrix working against him in a way that he'd eventually have to get rid of it, IIRC. The Matrix seems to have a semi-consciousness where it works when and where it wants to rather than being commanded by any Transformer. This is why Ultra Magnus couldn't open the Matrix...it's not because he wasn't the leader of the Autobots but that it wasn't the place nor the time to use it. It knew it needed to get inside of Unicron to work its magic and being allowed to be captured by Galvatron was a great way to get there fast.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  19. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2017
    Posts:
    6,477
    Trophy Points:
    242
    Likes:
    +4,442
    It’s pretty amazing to me that a comical and not very clever comment I made earlier with the full intent is being taken as a bad joke is actually working to inspire serious debate by others….but ok here gos
    (Once again keep in mind this is just in reply to the post and not necessarily my opinion on these issues)

    Its not really an issue of a “ill-timed proclamation” in Ultra Magnus case as it is it was a proclamation with a definite end date in mind…… “you have a job so somebody better comes along because your not good enough” is the gist of The proclamation in question.

    And yeah I know Optimus tried to admen those words by saying he wasn’t “worthy” either but based on what we see later in the series his comments about not being worthy himself comes off more as words of Comfort or condolence when they do words of fact

    So while it may be that the Supreme commander may make any proclamation he wants……..It seems that there is a “greater denominator” then the individual making the proclamation

    As to Scourge……he showed signs of being “affected” by the power of the matrix before putting it inside his body , unlike the other decepticons gathered Sourge seemed to be in commune with the matrix from just holding it

    sensing its powers ,Knowing it wasn’t just a mere flipping or power source,Claiming it’s important connection to the universe

    Does the matrix have a semi-consciousness or is there something about its physical design or programming that makes it more compatible with some while it has no compatibility with others is a completely different debate,

    but I see very little evidence that the matrix was actively working Against scourge in an attempt to force him to give it back or that it didn’t work for UM because it wasn’t the place and time

    Think about it if the matrix specifically chose to refused ultra Magnus because he wasn’t the right guy, at the right place at the right time……they why would it later chose to allow Scourge to use its power?

    If it chose to empower scourge just to try to get back to the autobots why didn’t it empower Wildrider first?……..That’s one damn risky plan

    Seems to me a plan like that , as well as would the specific knowledge that would be needed needed to arrange to be inside Unicron by a particular time table , would require something more than a semi conscious mind

    Seems to me there’s something else at play there…….Something far less Intentional and more basic nature