DEFORMATION SPACE DS-001 Crimson Wings(G1 MP Starscream)

Discussion in 'Transformers 3rd Party Discussion' started by williammmw, Jun 10, 2021.

  1. stevej

    stevej Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2003
    Posts:
    4,008
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    312
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Likes:
    +6,029
    You really need to ask yourself... Is this progress?

    [​IMG]

    Full disclaimer: I have MP-52 on order and long ago sold off my MP-03... Still irks me that, 15 years later, TT couldn't have gotten a better robot mode without sacrificing the alt mode so much.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2021
    • Like Like x 12
  2. divinecomedy

    divinecomedy JAB-A-WOOOKIE

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2010
    Posts:
    27,180
    News Credits:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    357
    Likes:
    +22,145
    We've reached a stage where we can no longer make a version of a character that's better in the absolute terms.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Manoftheyear2k

    Manoftheyear2k Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2015
    Posts:
    436
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    142
    Likes:
    +438
    With MP-52, I don't even mind the robot "boobies" hanging under the the jet mode (since the cartoon shows it too), my biggest gripe is the bulky cover that hides the faux cockpit for the sake of bot toon accuracy. Not worth the sacrifice or the unnecessary engineering IMO.
     
    • Like Like x 7
  4. Chirulazo

    Chirulazo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2014
    Posts:
    209
    Trophy Points:
    97
    Likes:
    +214
    With the way I usually display alt modes, the profile or underbelly are no issue. I tend to favor robot mode more than the alt mode. I know other collectors weigh their priorities differently, but in my case it is not a deal breaker, plus I have Takara's older seekers going into their jet modes anyway.




     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. HappyCryCat

    HappyCryCat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2021
    Posts:
    276
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Likes:
    +376
    Doesn't matter if there's big progress. This quote is living proof that it doesn't matter to TT. You and everyone that has MP-52 on preorder is going to buy it anyways, so why would they care? They probably have the means to make the perfect cartoon accurate Starscream, but why should they? Why make the perfect one when you can milk consumers by incrementally making the next version a tiny bit better each time?
     
    • Like Like x 7
  6. deathsheadII

    deathsheadII Not a Bounty Hunter yes?

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2010
    Posts:
    18,987
    News Credits:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    347
    Location:
    brighton uk
    Likes:
    +13,269
    this is why i'm keeping my mp11's to have them in alt mode
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. gibdozer

    gibdozer Love Gun

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2012
    Posts:
    1,941
    Trophy Points:
    197
    Likes:
    +3,425
    Yeah, I think you'd better.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. stevej

    stevej Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2003
    Posts:
    4,008
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    312
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Likes:
    +6,029
    I ordered MP-52 months ago and it's too late to cancel it now I've seen DS-001 which, incidentally, we still haven't seen the alt-mode for. I ordered him because it became apparent that my preferred route - to have oversized F-15 seekers and Coneheads - wasn't going to happen because Robot Hero have disappeared with not a Conehead in sight.

    I like some of what MP-52 will achieve - especially if he comes fully painted which I'm assuming he will - and I admit, while I love my accurate alt-modes my TFs do spend most of their time in robot mode.

    Now what I'm not doing is ordering Skywarp (again, too late to easily cancel Thundercracker) now so I can pick up DS-001. Once I have both Starscreams in hand I can make the mother of all informed choices. I won't sweat selling the loser(s) and I'll then be all in for the seekers/hopefully Coneheads.

    Unlike you I don't have a problem with TakaraTomy. Most of my MPs are official. I understand the raised prices (which 3rd parties are following) even if I don't like it. I do prefer to buy official BUT I'm not afraid to buy 3rd party if I think they really do look better to me or if I think an official version is either a long way off or, should it even arrive, will likely skew away from my personal preferences.

    Life can be pretty shitty and these are only toys, I find it best not to get bent out of shape over who makes what, who prefers what and who buys what.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  9. Liampope

    Liampope Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2014
    Posts:
    4,909
    News Credits:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Location:
    Stavanger, Norway
    Likes:
    +12,258
    I can respect any opinion put as politely as yours, even if I disagree.

    I can't agree DS didnt directly reference, i.e. copy, the bot mode sculpt here as it's so clear to me they did in exactly the way I suggest. You just can't get two independent translations of the wonky toon model into 3d form being so dimensionally close - like 95% identical - by chance. One must be referencing the other. But like you and me both agree, when it comes to this figure it doesn't matter. I never intended it to be a criticism of DS (well only as far as I wont personally be giving them any artistic credit for this bot sculpt in my mind), just an observation. In fact I think it's the best thing they could have possibly done to develop this figure and the result is amazing.

    I'd also have to disagree there is limited artistry in translating those animation models to 3d form. Takara literally have a guy who's job that is, with Yuki Oshima being a sort of creative director in bringing the characters to life since MP-36. They go into quite some detail on it in the translated MP-36 article. To me that clearly shows in the figures since MP-36 (included) and I see a big difference when that is done competently (all Takara's bots these days with the slight hiccup on Arcee's chest), and not so well - I'd give MT Meteor as an example, and I do think it's valid as whilst MT's older stuff - their Megatron, Hound, Inferno, Chromedome, etc are indeed heavily stylised, their Jazz and Seekers marked a clear shift to the 'pure toon' look along with many other producers - it just isn't as good an observation of the source material. I'd say XTB are very good (shame about the quality sometimes) and FT are getting right up there with Seaspray 2, huffer, Jazz, Mirage, but prior to that still a bit heroically stylised and often a bit wooden looking.

    To the animation designs themselves, yes a bit more detail like Kohara's original eight designs would have been nice to see in the show. Then again Dery didn't sterilise them all that much really - in most cases just a wheel or two simplified or disappearing, the ankle fins disappearing in the case of the Seekers, bigger heads. Not much more than that. A great resource here if anyone's interested...

    Evolution of G1 designs. - Allspark Pictures - The Allspark Forums

    They still remained pretty complex for manual cell animation at the level of output Hasbro/Sunbow wanted to put out. If you did watch that video I linked you'd hear that animator frequently remark just how complex the model is to draw, how long it would take for a single cell, etc - pencil mileage he calls it. So not surprising Dery had to tone them down a little, and that the studios often botched them up.

    But even if they were as detailed as Kohara's designs, I totally get that they still aren't really detailed in the grand scheme of things, and I totally understand why many adult collectors can't stand their expensive figures chasing that aesthetic. Personally I love it. We've had decades of reimagining of the characters and artistic license. To finally have figures with refined and clean styling and designers showing restraint on surface detailing and respect to the original source is what I've always been waiting for and I love it. To me MP is more alive than ever.

    What I personally find boring is something like MP Skids. To me it's like they've suddenly lost all artistic flair and have gone right back to straight, square parallel sided blocks for all the shapes with none of the subtle curve, taper, etc to bring them to life. Anatomical joints all in a single plane so the default posture is stiff and wooden, unlike the dynamic looking posture of the toon designs with the more 3d joint layout and curved/angled legs, etc. They then cover every square mm of the surface with fake detail greeble as if that is needed to create some visual interest when the underlying sculpt is so lifeless. Performing a similar function, in fact, to the stickers on the G1 toys which were there to make up for the simple smooth block parts underneath and give some visual interest.

    What's next? Well as soon as being faithful to the orginal anime is not the trend in Japan, they'll move on again to another style, some will enjoy it, some wont, but I'll be finished.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  10. pilot00

    pilot00 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2017
    Posts:
    10,523
    Trophy Points:
    272
    Location:
    Athens Greece
    Likes:
    +9,489
    Nah. Do you have a new age seeker on hand?
     
  11. Prime135

    Prime135 Jill Rhyme the science Prime

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2014
    Posts:
    15,407
    News Credits:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    332
    Location:
    New Cybertron
    Likes:
    +18,007
    My literal only complaint with this entire figure is the stripes on the tailfins. Putting aside accuracy for a moment, this design would’ve looked better without them because of the hinge. Would be great if there was a version with and one without.
     
  12. gibdozer

    gibdozer Love Gun

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2012
    Posts:
    1,941
    Trophy Points:
    197
    Likes:
    +3,425
    a7fa1e3eb868bba66b77f38f123f09c1.jpg
    Yeah, me too. Sadly even though it started out that way it has strayed.

    And before you say it yes I'd love an MP version of this
    images (6).jpeg
    Oh well can't win em all.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. HappyCryCat

    HappyCryCat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2021
    Posts:
    276
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Likes:
    +376
    Sounds like you don't have a problem having both, which is good and fine. But to me I'd rather not go through the hassle and would rather just wait for enough images to decide whether I should buy a figure or not. If I don't like it, I don't buy it. Even if it means I'll have to wait even longer for a better figure. I'm all for this figure, but now I'm even thinking about waiting a bit more for the second batch (if it ever happens) that will fix the first batchs' flaws, if any.

    Sorry if I misunderstood you, but it did sound like you had a problem with TT. The part where it irks you that their progress and engineering hasn't evolved proportionally to their scene in the industry.
    Yeah, I do have a problem with TT making bad toys since I'd love to support them, but I can't really do that when they make weaker toys.
    I have more of a problem with people complaining about official toys that still buy them. Why complain when it's already been bought? Pretty sure this isn't the first time this has happened. With money not being an issue, I would think people are tired of TT screwing them over with bad designs.

    If 3rd parties make better figures of existing TT figures, why do you prefer to buy the official?

    This is true. I don't care who makes what, as long as it's good. And yes you're right. When I hear people complaining or being disappointed, I like to try to help them realize they feel like that and how to avoid it, but yes, I should care less about what other people buy.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Zentropy

    Zentropy Toys > Fiction

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2019
    Posts:
    3,272
    Trophy Points:
    212
    Location:
    Midwest USA
    Likes:
    +6,130
    Good discussion, for certain.

    Funny your comments about MP Skids. The only failure I see in that figure is in the attempt to create the so-called "hybrid" style. In my opinion, MP-17 Streak exemplifies the MP hybrid. It has an appropriate toy-ness in the mechanical details and realistic alt mode, but with more heroic proportions and nods to the cartoon model where beneficial. (I'm guessing fans of the cartoon fan would argue more in favor of MP-17+ as more of a balanced hybrid, but I think it looks washed-out). I see MP Skids's failure in that it unsuccessfully integrates the two ends of the spectrum-- it's an unharmonious combination of toy and toon. I'm sure the toon fans would have preferred smoother panels, flatter paint sheens, and less greeble. "Toy" fans would have preferred a G1 toy head sculpt, yellow eyes, ONE shade of darker blue paint, and some silver and black thrown in to break up the monotony. I don't think either group is completely happy with the middle that was chosen. Personally, I like the execution of Reboost, but have no attachment to the character (because it never was one). I'm hoping for a plus version of Skids to be issued with a deco styled more like Reboost, but I doubt it will happen.
     
  15. Brum Bot

    Brum Bot You’re an idiot Starscream

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2013
    Posts:
    7,209
    News Credits:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    247
    Location:
    UK
    Likes:
    +30,690
    My god, if there was ever a comment that should be pinned in every official / 3P MP character thread, it’s this. Huge kudos @stevej for hitting the nail on the head.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  16. octobotimus

    octobotimus Anti-hype man

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2017
    Posts:
    14,648
    News Credits:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    277
    Location:
    Washington
    Likes:
    +35,982
    Ebay:
    Agreed. Strive for the least possible effort in toys. Who cares about having a good product!
     
    • Like Like x 2
  17. Snaku

    Snaku Primes Don't Party

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2006
    Posts:
    12,179
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    362
    Likes:
    +32,040
    Ebay:
    I have a couple but I haven't tried holding them up next to the renders of DS. The most striking similarity I note off the bat is that you can see the plane stabilizers on the inside of the lower leg. But that's kind of obvious: if you want to hide the stabilizers instead of having them hang off the side of the bot mode legs, you're gonna have to stash them in the legs (or you could fold them onto the back but there's less room to hide them there). And while NA has the blue vertical stabilizers showing, DS has the grey horizontal ones showing, which means the engineering isn't the same.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Scourgatron

    Scourgatron 4D Smart-ass

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Posts:
    16,118
    News Credits:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    387
    Location:
    Texas
    Likes:
    +16,664
    Whinge


    Complain


    Cry


    Choose your class
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Zentropy

    Zentropy Toys > Fiction

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2019
    Posts:
    3,272
    Trophy Points:
    212
    Location:
    Midwest USA
    Likes:
    +6,130
    Yeah, I don’t regard the cartoon as the “original source” either, but that’s what serves as the pseudo-beginning for the less enlightened. ;) 
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. htquyet

    htquyet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2019
    Posts:
    426
    Trophy Points:
    142
    Likes:
    +814
    Comparing MP-52 underside with real F-15 seems irrelevant, as it follow the toon jet, and is quite good in that case.
    Even the Maketoys is not as accurate as MP-52, although it's thinner and seems to be better.

    Anyway I'm looking forward to see how the DS will be. Although I think MP-52 is still better overall, I may end up getting this DS version.

    g1 starscream jet.jpg
     
    • Like Like x 1