Decepticon Sabot immunity for TF3

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by knoted, Sep 1, 2009.

  1. Midnight

    Midnight Nerdicon

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    I like the idea that theyr alien weaponry could hurt or damage theyr alien armor but the sabot rounds shouldnt be so effective cuz it feels like it undermines the Autobots weapons and efforts.

    The TF weapons should be elaborated on more.
     
  2. EnerPrime

    EnerPrime Active Member

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    I always wondered why Transformers in G1 were invulnerable to the miltary weapons. Especially when the Dinobots, who relied on the weapons of hitting things hard and flamethrowers, were fearsome battle machines. Theres no way Grimlock's tail packs more of a punch than a tank round.

    I like that the military can hurt tranformers in the movies. It gives the war coming to earth a point beyond TF's turning to cool earth vehicles.
     
  3. Darthbane2007

    Darthbane2007 Well-Known Member

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    So let me get this straight?

    People don't have a problem with the Transformers in cartoons getting shot at by weapons because they have no effect. Seriously, in Beast Wars alone, several characters such as Waspinator get blown to pieces but somehow are fine in the next episode.

    But the minute a sabot round hits a Decepticon, everybody's like " Why are human weapons so strong against them?!"

    I mean, we should be pissed at the cartoons for making the transformers so ridiculously strong..
     
  4. Ziero

    Ziero TFW2005 Supporter

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    Well the problems with that is A) their ship is in ruins, we see it, it's crashed and torn B) they have no energy to run a massive ship, and could barely scrape by with what they had to release that many protoforms. Honestly, this quest for energy concept is something I think should be the main focus of the third film. No more macuffins and magic items, just a good old fashion tale about Decepticons raiding our energy supplies to fuel their goals. Maybe even make it so that they need our energy to repair and reactivate their ship, which they'll use to destroy our planet. A simple, straight forward and highly effective concept imo.

    In all of these Sci-fi movies, human technology is all but useless except for one tiny, singular last hope, hail mary, out of no where lucky coincidence event. Taking the ID4 example, we humans just happened to have one of their ships, and we just happened to have people capable of flying them who just happened to be able to figure out how to infect their computers with one of our programs. A chain of serendipitous events, fortunate accidents that give us that one, last chance at winning. That's not human technology being effective, that's the Universe being against the bad guys in every way shape and form.

    ...you mean the barely there drones with no actual alt modes who were nothing but cannon fodder? They pretty much were braindead zombies, they were Protoforms brought online and dropped to earth just to fight in this battle. And even then they were taking out their fair share of humans.

    Again, I must point out that the only actual damage Megatron received was from a suped up Prime, none of our weapons had any lingering effect on him, hell, most Autobot weapons had no effect on him. He really is one tough S.O.B., it's just that his role as a henchy in this movie caused him to not shine as brightly as he should.
     
  5. knoted

    knoted Resistor Transistor

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    The point is ; this movie had a lack of feeling a true genuine threat ; lack of true tension.

    ...I meant the many Constructicons and even the ones which formed Devs never stood a chance ; they looked like a total cannon fodder joke.
     
  6. boxerperson

    boxerperson a ringer...

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    Uh, yeah, you were doing a strawman. You included this in your post: "I mean c'mon... by Bay's logic put rocketboosters on a M1 Abrams tank and you'd have the ultimate Universe Conquerer Space Tank. FF-ing ridiculous.
    "

    Stuff like that colors your whole post...makes it look like just another hate-on-bay-cuz-you-didn't-get-your-way deal.

    The real problem is 25 years of Transformers not having any consistency in what can damage them. We've seen them get hurt by punches from other transformers...if they had armor that could withstand a tank round, a punch wouldn't do squat. You want them to have lasers? Lasers don't behave or look anything like what was in G1, and they're not very effective against armored targets...a simple reflective layer on the surface of the armor would render them useless. Want them to have plasma weapons? The tip of a HEAT round from a tank or RPG is burning at the same temperature. ;) 

    So yeah. The problem up till now has been showing the strongest human weapons having no effect while at the same time showing simple hand to hand punches and kicks hurting them. If you introduce some kind of reactive shielding a la Master Chief, then the Transformers' weapons would ALSO not work.....

    As I pointed out...when the Decepticons are not at a tactical disadvantage (their enemies knowing exactly when and where to find them), they wipe us out....and even when they ARE at a disadvantage they put up a pretty decent fight considering they've got us and the Autobots trying to kill them. Their mobility and the fact that they don't have to have a bunch of support infrastructure to mobilize is their biggest advantage against us....and speaking as a member of the US Army....mobility, support and infrastructure advantages are what win wars, pretty much every time. It's called force projection, and they've got a huge advantage compared to us.

    I would agree that we need some writing that allows them to utilize this advantage...thus far the Decepticons have behaved like civilians, not soldiers. Their strategy has been outright terrible. Maybe if TF3 has them getting countries to fight each other as a distraction or something?
     
  7. Haven't a Clue

    Haven't a Clue Well-Known Member

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    One of the best arguments I've seen on the forums in a while.

    I agree with boxerperson and zie, but without doing a 'bayman' I found the biggest reason this didn't work was due to shoddy execution. Too many people here are tainted by the view that the cartoon series is the Bible, that all aspects of a film trying to anchor the Transformers franchise in reality should adhere to G1. If we were to follow this line of thinking all of the 'Cons would speak as if they were on Helium and Megatron would transform to a tank the size of his damn Leader Class toy.

    We're too busy moaning about a powerful human presence (after seeing the first movie this was my biggest complaint) but we have to realise this is what the films are about, it isn't the 1980's any more. This was their attempt at getting some key themes and ideas to impress critics, sponsors and 14 year old boys. Ultimately, if it takes an army dude and a LOT of arguing to figure this out then they've clearly failed.

    I've figured that the premise of this new TF universe of apparently vulnerable warrior 'Cons vs 7 billion 'insects' and worker 'Bots is brilliant, the execution is what is sorely lacking. Instead of adding more macguffins (sabot invulnerablitiy, rail guns, AllSpark) they should simplify it and stop trying to kiss the military, critics and TransFans collective anuses and make a clear, concise and polished piece of art. It worked for Star Trek, it would work here.
     
  8. knoted

    knoted Resistor Transistor

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    Wrong. Bay showed to be sufficient in the Mission City scene. That's the irony ; he got things right there, yet imo, he screws up in ROTF's closing battle scene.

    I know he can do better ... that is what makes the disgrace worse.
    And you can't pin me down on including a humerous argument for the sake of some fun.

    I am totally not saying to adhere to G1 or any other TF era as some kind of damage Bible.

    See, finally you see my main point. Screenplay & direction IS, a big deal.

    As is, the final desert battle leaves an unsatisfying taste in my mouth, regardless of what you call battle realism. Also with all due respect to the US military, I can care less about it, in context of these movies.

    Any good creative writing will be able to give credit where credit is due, but without making a supposedly alien threat look like a joke to ME. I can't help it if others didn't see it that way.
    Disregarding the absurdity of the Navy railgun in ROTF, it was the abrupt introduction which made Devastator look like a total joke as well.

    We all know the movie was finished in a bit of a hurry rush...and it really shows in the final Egypt scene.
     
  9. boxerperson

    boxerperson a ringer...

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    I really don't see the difference between the two endings. The finale of TF1 was shot in an area of 2 blocks. All sam did was climb the stairs in one of the buildings.

    Anyways, I agree with you on the writing. Given the tactical situation...the Decepticons (and autobots) are vulnerable to our weapons and vastly outnumbered, they need to introduce a plot that lets the Decepticons play to their advantages. Quick hit and run attacks with massive force. It worked wonders for them the 2 times they did it in the movies so far...and it should. They do not have supply lines, are extremely mobile, and they ARE their own weapons. That alone should be enough to let them win a war with the humans...IF they fought right. It's the exact same type of situation that America was in during the revolutionary war and the Vietnamese were in when they fought us. Both times, the mobile, quick hitting side who technically had less firepower won.

    I really really hope that TF3 follows a MTMtE story progression, with the Decepticons quickly hitting multiple civilian sources to gather energy to power whatever their ultimate plan is, be it a ship, a way to animate Starscream's hatchlings...whatever. The Decepticons' key to victory is to get in and get out before the humans and autobots can respond....because they ARE outnumbered. So far the scenes with the Decepticons that have been great all involved them wiping out humans....which they can easily do as long as they don't basically knock on our military's front door.
     
  10. Kortex

    Kortex Well-Known Member

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    If Orci Bay and company would wake up and stop being dumb kids they could introduce characters such as Wheeljack to come up with a way to counter the Decepticons beeing immune to mans weapons, they should stop focusing on stupid robots like the twins and make it more serious with guys like Scrapper (constructicons), Ratchet and Wheeljack who are known to be robots scientists... Even Ironhide could help, he s the weapon specialist huh.. anyway, Orci and Bay messed up alot with character development and for TF3 THEY NEED TO LET THE ROBOTS SPEAK BETWEEN EACHOTHER!!! Please, its a popcorn movie but Bay, your not 13 years old so GROW UP!!!!!