Could a sane Grimlock defeat Tarn?

Discussion in 'Transformers Comics Discussion' started by General Magnus, Apr 13, 2014.

  1. WilyMech

    WilyMech Well-Known Member

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    Call me crazy but I want to know what shape Grimlock is really in. All we saw the Dynobot is doing playing Jenga and peeing on Misfire. I am more curious to see what the next issue and his mental state really is. I forgot to add attacking the Scavengers but that doesn't count they are still Decepticons.

    The way Grimlock is now my Answer will be a big "no" he cannot defeat Tarn if the later tied his servos around his back. Also dismantle Tarn's vocalizer and may be it will be fair fight.

    When Grimlock is at his best it is 50/50 at beating Tarn. My impression Grimlock holds back much of his strength.
     
  2. SMOG

    SMOG Vocabchampion ArgueTitan

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    Meh. We already know Grimlock is tough, and "explosions" in comic books are only as destructive as they need to be. The problem with measuring the destructive capacity of a bomb like that is that its potency is largely indicated by its ability to knock buildings down. The thing is, unlike humans, heavy-duty Transformers tend to be tougher than most buildings.

    An atomic blast wave of 20-odd psi may crumble concrete structures, but it seems dubious that a Cybertronian heavy would crumble like concrete. It's pretty likely that any other Bot or Con "big guy" would have survived such an explosion as well... and a Phase Sixer absolutely would.

    On the flip side, Grimlock and Shockwave were both taken out by a hand-grenade at the end of Maximum Dinobots. So go figure. Narrative expediency strikes again! :) 

    zmog
     
  3. ZeroiaSD

    ZeroiaSD Autobot

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    Yay, someone knows how big explosions and tough things work :) 

    Plus, it'd not like he was *fine*, he just survived it.


    I don't think Hot Rod is, we saw him from the hand-hotspot remember? In Autocracy, we were told he was 'enhanced for speed,' so I think he's a normal, if high-end normal, bot who's spark was affected by the Senate's radiation some and was able to be enhanced speed/strength wise somewhat more than normal.

    Cyclonus and Whirl, I think are just around the top end of normal bots. A Great Sword like Cyclonus has, however, gives a bot like him a very nice shot against a PoP.



    Good point, they've both gotta be not only PoPs, but higher end ones. I bet in history, they're probably the strongest DJD lineup ever. At least the old-Vos version.

    The only bot I can think of that compares in size- or surpasses, really- is Sky Lynx.




    Though the army is something the rest of the LL crew can fight against. P6s are strong enough that you really need exceptional bots, quantity of normal bots just can't do enough against their armor, but there's tons of Lost Lighters who, while not strong enough to help against Tarn, and probably not do all that much against Helex or Tesarus, can take on normal soldiers very well. Riptide, for example, and Skids.
     
  4. FruitBuyer

    FruitBuyer Well-Known Member

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    People really have a mythical view of Phase Sixers. It's clear that they're stronger than any other Bot (exceptions like Skylynx and Omega aside) however I am of the belief that it's more to do with their destructive capabilities instead of them just being physical superior in all aspects.

    Phase Sixer's role is to sterilise a planet after the heaviest-lifting has been done and most of the resistence has been crushed. This is not to say that they're weak, Sixshot and Overlord have shown that they aren't easy prey. What I'm saying is that in addition to being Roller/Optimus/Megatron/Grimlock level, they're given a stronger body from the Ununtrium and far greater firepower so they can better do their role. After all, they're expected to sterilise a planet by themselves, they need to be able to tolerate being the sole target and mass-killing.

    So when Prowl says Grimlock/Optimus/Megatron pales in comparison to the Phase-sixers, it's because they're not built in the same way that Phase-sixers/Tarn are. They don't have bodies of Ununtrium nor do are outfitted to sterilise planets by themselves (Stealth Bomber Megatron isn't included because Costa's run is stupid). They're only inherently stronger because of the assortment of upgrades they have, be it Ununtrium, Nuke and greater assortment of weaponry (such as Tarn's double-barrel fusion cannon compared to Megatron's one).

    In regards to this thread? Yes, Grimlock can potentially take down Tarn. Just like Optimus/Megatron/Grimlock etc can potentially take down any Phase-sixer. The odds are stacked against them but they have a better chance than anyone else. Think of it like the greatest sport teams or athletes, even when a team or player is considered to be far superior to the competition, they can still lose.
     
  5. raindance773

    raindance773 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure size alone makes one a POP. IDW Cosmos is draw to be the same size as Helex, and Broadside is drawn to the proportions too, as is Deathsaurus. Somewhere in IDW, I can't remember where, it was written some Transformers pushed their bodies to maximum mass and size their sparks could animate or were built large to accommodate large jobs during Functionism, so these guys may all be examples of that.

    The POP spark is different in that in some cases it lends itself to augmentation (Sixshot, Black Shadow, Overlord, possibly Heretech) or load bearing (the Magnus Armor wearers), but that it also seems to lend the Transformer towards leadership of some type: OP, Megs, Animus (who was at least on the ethics committee for the entire Autobot nation), Shockwave, Scorponok, Fort Max. I think that is what makes the difference between normal guys and the leaders.

    And you may be right about Hot Rod, but we don't know which spark was his at Nyon.
     
  6. Brave Magnus

    Brave Magnus Drawings from Argentina! :D

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    A sane Grimlock? Hm..well,. could be a fair fight for either of them. Actually think watching that will be very interesting and just having a twist at the very end. Like a final blow coming from Tarn. That will be so cool! :D 
     
  7. SMOG

    SMOG Vocabchampion ArgueTitan

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    No myths. What we KNOW about the Phase Sixers we've encountered so far is that they are:

    A) capable of planetary-scale mass extinction. That means a lot of firepower and armour and just plain endurance. I mean, it's possible that Sixshot and Black Shadow just went around the planet shooting 3 billion people one at a time, but I doubt it. :) 

    B) BIG... and skilled... and strong as hell. Sixshot and Overlord have demonstrated power levels that allowed them to walk all over other TFs like a pro-wrestler in a kindergarten. We've seen snippets of Black Shadow in action, dominating a field of proper heavies (including Prime and Magnus) and walking away with 3000 notches on his belt. Notably, Overlord was capable of going toe-to-toe with Megatron (but still losing) before his enhancements. As a UUT, he dismantled Fortress Maximus (so named by Prowl as one of the most powerful Autobots) in a matter of seconds. Sixshot was in a brief inconclusive standoff with Optimus Prime... which after the introduction Sixshot got, comes off as an endorsement of Optimus' abilities.

    C) We also know that they are "virtually indestructible" as a matter of course, due to specific procedures used in their creation. This does not even factor into the composition of their exoskeleton, which in the case of Sixshot, we know is made of exotic-grade super-metals.

    So yeah. No myths. Exceptional skills, exceptional weapons, exceptional power, and virtually indestructible. There's no reason for exaggeration.

    Yes, but only in terms of their chances being 3% insteade of .01%. :) 

    I think the UUT is the factor that stabilizes the random potential in such an encounter. There are only so many opportunities for an underdog to turn the tide of battle, when they are almost completely incapable of injuring their opponent. That really hinders the play of luck here.

    That's a terrible analogy, because it compares entirely variable values, and an arbitrary metric for victory. These guys are indestructible super-robots. Their UUT bodies are not going to have an "off day". If you put the best football team in history up against a team of Terminators, and the goal isn't to win the game, but to kill the other team, you would never, ever bet on the football team.

    Is there a chance? In comic books especially... sure. Narrative contrivance and extenuating circumstances can jig the stats... and a bad writer can always resort to a cheesey never-say-die heroic power-up in the last minute of the fight...

    But the chance is so low that it's hardly worth entertaining in a discussion of relative power levels.

    Getting Transformers artists to agree on character sizes... or even agree with themselves is always a tough job. As a fun game, try comparing the size of Ultra Magnus in Milne's art, issue to issue... or even panel-to-panel. :lol 

    Most recently, IDW Cosmos seems to be the same size as Soundwave. A little rounder, but otherwise the same height. But yeah... I'm not sure that size always matters that much in TFs.

    Well, it is a military context, where face-to-face combat is still conducted in an almost feudal fashion. While clearly Optimus, Shockwave, and Megatron are all brilliant in their ways, it does seem like the kind of setting where the biggest fish (and the biggest toys :wink:  ) tend to ascend to leadership simply by being the toughest guys around. Despite all their culture and tech, it still seems to be barbarian-rules, for the most part.

    I'm still waiting to see if there are other kinds of POP spark... other than simply "big guys" and "little guys who can wear stuff that makes them big guys". It seems like sort of a questionable distinction, and doesn't hint at much variety. :) 

    zmog
     
  8. RMStunticon

    RMStunticon Dan Kuroto Fan

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    It does seem though that the phase sixers are pretty much invulnerable when you get down to their skeletons. Unless you have an unutrium infused weapon or walking.blender. While Agustin Padilla's art is unreliable at best, it seems Overlord's armor took the brunt of the damage,.after getting blown up by the Lost Light, and even where it's all blown off, the skeleton remains intact. Although his legs are off panel, so that remains unknown, I guess. But when the Wreckers defeated him, his armor was obliterated, while his skeleton just caught on fire. Somehow. I have no idea if this post did anything but whatever.
     
  9. ZeroiaSD

    ZeroiaSD Autobot

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    Optimus got his fame as a police office, after all, and only talked to the senate after surviving an assassination attempt. Megatron, similarly, in order to be a rebel leader, had to *survive*. And that's pre/early war. Then the war itself... yea, this is an environment that favors the strong.

    One thing that's interesting is look who's in charge or positions of authority in RiD, post-war: Bumblebee, Starscream. Windblade and Rattrap and the other delegates aren't big hitters either. Starscream's good, but not PoP strong, ditto Prowl and Metalhawk. Windblade's fairly normal. Bumblebee's below-average in strength, as is Rattrap.

    The rule of the strong isn't applying as much, when the war ended people voted small to normal sized bots. Especially two who survived the war with more cleverness than muscle.


    PoP does seem to be, to an extent, *just* the yield the spark has. Roller was a PoP but noted as feeling overshadowed by the Outliers who had more special abilities.

    Now, this may be more than just size, it may also reflect how much power they have for weapons and strength- so you could have big non-PoPs- but most of the time, it seems to be size or size-related features.

    IMO, Cosmos is possibly a PoP (and if he's not, he's likely the aforementioned possible 'big but has less power output than a Pop'), Sky Lynx almost certainly is.


    Though 'small, but packing disproportionately powerful weapons' would certainly be interesting ^^

    Hm, I could see ones like that not having the same lifespan... not as tough, but priority targets.
     
  10. Splendic

    Splendic bleep blorp

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    Reading all of this makes me miss Omega Supreme. When the hell is he going to show up again?
     
  11. ZeroiaSD

    ZeroiaSD Autobot

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    Good question. I mean, we know where he *is*, but repairs are slow-slow-slow.

    I guess Wheeljack was much more focused on Superion for some time.
     
  12. bigpoppanick

    bigpoppanick Member

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    I like the IDW stuff, but it seems like they use Grimlock to prop other characters up.

    In the gladiator arenas Grimlock was 2nd only to Megs. Megs has dismantled Optimus every time they've fought. Grims stood toe to toe with Megs in Monstrosity. If Optimus has stood toe to toe with Phase Sixers it would stand to reason that Grimlock could too.

    Yet Grims has taken a bunch of Ls. It's the inconsistency of storytelling. Grimlock gets outclassed again and again yet they talk about how powerful he is. It's like every powerful Cons right of passage is putting Grimlock on his back. Grimlock is my favorite character.

    It's like Batman syndrome. Anytime DC wants a new character to seem powerful they hand Batman a loss.
     
  13. SMOG

    SMOG Vocabchampion ArgueTitan

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    Yeah, me too... I always liked him as a foil for the Combiners... a guy who was tougher than even them. According to the old G1 bios (not adjusting for possible errors), Omega Supreme was waaaaaay stronger than just about anybody other than Piranacon.

    It's true... Grimlock hasn't gotten any real development since Maximum Dinobots.

    Okay, hold on... Megatron and Grimlock stood toe-to-toe for all of 3 seconds, and that fight got cut short pretty damn fast. I don't think we can draw much from that. However, although we've very rarely seen Megatron and Optimus actually fighting on the page (has it just been that once, after Megatron got juiced on the Ore-13?), their reminiscing in Chaos Theory made it abundantly clear that they are VERY closely matched, and that Optimus has given as well as he received.

    So yeah, I don't think we can draw up such a simple equivalency between Grimlock, Phase-Sixers and the others. Optimus Prime fought Sixshot for a very brief moment, and the fight was totally inconclusive. Prime managed to come out of it relatively unscathed, but we also have no idea if Prime was actually inflicting any actual damage on Sixshot. My impression was that he was just keeping him busy, but with little chance of victory.

    For what it's worth though, I figure Grimlock is roughly equal to Megatron and Optimus... maybe slightly less, but on a good day, any one of them could win in a fight against another.

    It has nothing to do with Grimlock getting the shaft... it's just that there are different rungs on this ladder. Prime, Megatron, Shockwave, and Grimlock are probably all on one level...with a bit of room for shifting back and forth (IDW Shockwave does seem to be a pretty tough nut).

    The Phase Sixers have been, since IDW started, on a whole other level... the next category up... but definitely a category of their own. Prime, Megatron or Grimlock.. they all would have their hands full against one of those guys. That's why Megatron built kill-switches into all of them.

    If there's anyone in comics who deserves to have some losses handed their way, it's the goddamned Batman! I don't think you can accuse DC of "worfing" Batman to introduce new characters, when 99.9% of the rest of the time, Batman is punching waaaaaay above his weight, just because he's their biggest seller, and the "cool guy" fanboys love the most.

    I would almost be willing to buy a comic that was nothing but Batman getting beaten by guys who clearly outclass him... just on principle! Ditto Wolverine! :lol 

    Truth be known, I think I'd rather read about mid-range Grimlock who occasionally gets his ass handed to him, than Wolverine-style Grimlock who always kicks ass. But I agree... he should get a chance to shine a bit more often.

    zmog
     
  14. ZeroiaSD

    ZeroiaSD Autobot

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    Grimlock did kill Blackwall, a huge, certainly-PoP Decepticon. Blackwall even had brute strength, but that was of limited use when stabbed in the head ^^ Kicked Scorponok's butt too, caused some *serious* damage before the weird alt-mode thing he had in Monstrosity interrupted.

    Grimlock has a number of losses- often, I'll note, due to disadvantages like being unable to use his robot mode, or when he fought Scorponok in Spotlight: Grimlock, his weapons were disabled *and* Scorponok upgraded!- but he's got his share of wins too.
     
  15. SMOG

    SMOG Vocabchampion ArgueTitan

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    That's a perfect example. Grimlock was being physically overpowered in that fight. And then he pulled a hail-mary and managed to put his sword into the guy's head. It wasn't Grimlock's overwhelming strength that saved him, but in his own words, his tendency to fight dirty.

    To be fair, Scorponok being "upgraded" is part of why Scorponok is powerful. And Grimlock actually DID shoot at Scorponok once during that fight (with his sword?). Apparently only his "mouth cannons" were disabled... I'm not sure if that's necessarily what would have turned the tide. Grimlock isn't Godzilla... his super-breath isn't his signature super-weapon. :) 

    But yeah, Grimlock has had his victories... but he's also been beaten before. He's not invincible. So... as it should be.

    zmog
     
  16. Wheeljackie

    Wheeljackie He will set us free

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    This is so hard cause they are my two favorite Transformers....
     
  17. bigpoppanick

    bigpoppanick Member

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    Megs beats Prime hard in Autocracy and Monstrosity, then right before All Hail Megatron.

    I don't know how to use the multiquote thing right so apologies in advance.

    Batman took losses from The KGBeast, Prometheus, Bronze Tiger, and others. I think they even let Richard Dragon get one on him.

    Grimlock is supposed to be a .01%er. in his showings with other bots with that label he's been shown to be vastly underpowered. They gave him the label, and then just have him get beat over and over again. If Grimlock shows up you know he's gonna say something funny and then get laid out. Now with his brain damage they took away any smarts or startegy he may have had. It's annoying and a disservice to the character.
     
  18. ZeroiaSD

    ZeroiaSD Autobot

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    When has he just 'said something funny, then get laid out'?

    Even when he loses, it's normally after a reasonably boss fight. Vs Scorponok, a powerful PoPer himself, Scorp needs upgrades to win, sans upgrade they are similar in power but Grimlock is more skilled.

    Vs Shockwave in Maximum Dinobots, Grimlock started the fight damaged, and was still holding his own fine.
     
  19. RNSrobot

    RNSrobot Keeper of the Waspinator Swarm. Blam.

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    Well it is true grim has had little development since max dino. He went to jail and has barely shown up since.

    Tbh it's been nice. Grimlock was beyond overexposed. I think when barber or Roberta gets to revive him and being him back to the forefront it will be awesome. Much in the way that killing bee took out an exposed character. Starscream has had a very new role. Megatron too. Prime has been tougher but some interesting stuff. Prowl went cray.

    The big guns, the main characters, for me, I've seen them so much I *want* a break for new stuff to develop. Even the other dinobota have had some needed build without grimlock overshadowing them.

    Regarding grim losing a lot in idw --- sooooo he's worf?
     
  20. ZeroiaSD

    ZeroiaSD Autobot

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    Well, he's back with the Scavengers at least.

    Good point.

    I wouldn't quite say that much. His record is more mixed than bad.

    He does end up handicapped a lot- Going into fights damaged, or having to stay in one mode, or minus ammo for one of his major weapons, or so on.