Power level discussions in a Universe with Predaking, Bruticus et al and beings all the way up to Metroplex are relative.

I think Roche/Roberts set that relative scale in LSOTW by showing the interaction/anticipation between Megatron and his Phase Sixers and the fact that a combination of brains, brawn and luck could allow Overlord to get taken down in the end by firepower and a team approach.

So much is unstated in terms of capability but this idea of the Cons being pretty much unbeatable at the top really only works with Megatron, and as Scuba and I have already said I don't think Megatron is dumb enough to let his Super SuperDupers get too far out of his grasp in terms of being unkillable.

They wouldn't have been able to string the idea of a 9 million year war out with any believability if the Top tier Cons weren't tied to a line that was Megatron or just above for the phase Sixers otherwise what the heck would have taken them so long in winning the war?

I'm "comfortable" with a Team of Five Dinos being about the power level you would pitch to take on a Combiner or even a Phase Sixer. And that includes the idea that Grimlock probably is a fairly good match for the likes of Tarn. Let's not have too many "Sentry-types" getting created to unbalance the sides beyond credibility.

 

Anyone questioning how feasible it would be for Megatron to put a killswitch in every Decepticon he deemed a threat consider this - would there be that many of them? I consider Megatron smart enough to eliminate most of those who woud pose a threat to him unless they served some percieved use to him. Tarn for example seem totally enamoured with Megatron's political manifesto and something of a Decepticon patriot so it would make sense to keep him alive, but most likely with a killswitch should his allegiance sway.

As to whether Megatron could install these killswitches... well Bumblebee's Autobots seemingly put them in every Decepticon under arrest at the beginning of RID, and if Bee could do it, I'm sure Megs could do it better.

 

Except they didn't. They threw everything at Overlord and still didn't stop him. The evidence suggests the internal endostructure of a "Super Warrior" is nigh-indestructible. The implication at the end of LSOTW is that Overlord still would have killed them all with his bare hands, if he hadn't suffered a mental breakdown upon learning that Megatron was dead.

Kill-switches. This was established back in Furman's run with Sixshot. He was so powerful that Megatron implanted a secret shutdown protocol. We also know that Megatron took similar measures with Overlord.

That's a good question, but the fact is everything we've seen in the comics up till now contradicts your point. The Black Shadow flashback corroborates the raw power of this class of warrior... to cite the TFwiki

"Said exploits included his single-handedly murdering three billion inhabitants of Rigel IV, a battle with the Wreckers during which he killed three of them and dismembered their leader Hyperion, and his massacre of 3,003 members of the Autobots' 113th Battalion, an encounter that saw him personally best Optimus Prime and Ultra Magnus."

What we do know is that if you hit them with enough firepower a Super Warrior (or Warrior Elite or whatever... an UUT-enhanced Con) can have their superstructure severely damaged, which would limit their battlefield functionality a lot, while still leaving them more or less unstoppable on a one-to-one basis. So far the amount of firepower seems variable, but would probably normally be limited to battleship-class ordinance, not personal weaponry (for example the missiles used to take out Overlord in MTMTE, which only injured him... he looks relatively intact at the end).

I get what you're saying. I'm "uncomfortable" myself with the power level of UUT super-warriors. But whether we like it or not, the facts as they are indicate otherwise. All five Dinobots were barely able to match Shockwave alone, and Scorponok was a challenging opponent for both Ultra Magnus and Grimlock on two occasions. I think we can draw some comparisons there. The Dinobots (and Grimlock) are just not in the same class as UUT super-warriors.

THIS... totally.

As Megatron's original bio quotes... "Everything is fodder."

One of Megs' defining characteristics is his willingness to put everything to work for him and his cause... he wastes nothing. He would not squander the potential of UUT super-warriors. Instead, he would compensate for them (through failsafes) and make absolute use of them.

Also, as a final note, the UUT-infusion process has been described as being exceedingly grueling. Apparently only a point-one-percenter spark is capable of surviving the process. This offers one explanation as for why Megatron may not have undergone the process himself. We still don't know if Megatron has such a spark, or whether he is forged or constructed. Why risk himself on such a dangerous procedure when he can cultivate other assets?

zmog

 

That´s the problem I see with having characters like Tarn and Overlord. I keep thinking, "Why didn´t Megatron simply threw these guys at the higher Autobot ranks and be done with the war?"

If you add these "super transformers" to one side and nothing equivalent to the other, it makes you wonder how the Autobots are even alive by now.


On a side note, SMOG´s back! Yay!  

 

That's a very good point.

 

I've got a few ideas on that.

1: Megatron wanted to hold back in case Optimus brought out some kind of super weapon of his own. Why throw out your biggest gun if you think your opponent might have something in reserve himself?

2: The Phase-sixers aren't completely battle-worthy. Yes, they can go in and single-handedly destroy planets and battallions of soldiers, but they're called Phase Six for a reason. By that time, the fighters likely used up the majority of their ammunition and reserves, and didn't have much to fall back on, and by then barring few exceptions, the big strategists had already abandoned the battle, leaving the warriors on the field unable to come up with a strategy that might work, or the resources to pull it off.

3: Megatron refused to let anyone kill Prime but himself, and didn't want to risk ANYONE getting a fatal attack in on him before he had the chance to.

4: The majority of what makes a Phase-sixer works is the fear they generate before anything happens, thus when they DO show up on the field, the 'bots immediately think it's over and start losing confidence. Then, add in them single-handedly wiping out a huge chunk on their own, it dwindles down to the point they believe winning is NOT an option.

Personally, I think it was a mix of them all. Not only did he NOT want Optimus to be taken out by anyone but himself, but he thought that if he kept using them on a normal basis, they would lose the element of fear surrounding them, and eventually someone might figure out a counter.

Or, quite possibly, the P6 bots are like nuclear bombs, and once set off you can't control the explosions.

Hopefully, we'll find out more during season 2 and further.

 

Don't forget that Megatron's goal was to kill every single Autobot that exists, even if the leadership was eliminated the Decepticons would still have to hunt down any resistance that remained. Anyway the infiltration protocol would still be needed to help Megatron build up his Cybertronian Empire.

Huzzah... Hoorah!!!
This calls for some music:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GwjfUFyY6M
 

EDIT: Also everything covered in the above post

 

I'm just visiting.  

But if we're celebrating with Kool & The Gang, I respectfully submit

Kool & The Gang - Open Sesame - YouTube

And now back to your previously scheduled Grimlock vs Tarn thread...

zmog

 

Remember though that back in Devastation Prime [with Hardhead] were still standing and battling Sixshot on their own, so it's not like the Phase sixers are without even an equal match.

I do believe that if not for the mental breakdown, Overlord would have killed everybody on Garrus 9, as an endoskeleton with only one functioning arm.

Tarn is still kind of untested, strength wise. He's been name dropped in the upper tier, but so far his battle exploits are with a crew of four other individuals who until very, very recently, were mostly challenging 1 'con at a time.

At any point I assume each phase sixer has a natural stopping point. Considering that Black Shadow went against 7 Wreckers at a time, and only managed to kill 3...then went against an entire battalion out of which at least some lower-tiers like Nightbeat, Pyro and Kup survived...he couldn't have been called out of those battles all the time?

So there must be a stopping point for all of them, otherwise yes, it makes no sense why Megatron just didn't point them at any autobot outpost, one base at a time, and win the war within a month.

 

no.

 

Tarn I think will still win.

 

Maybe we read a different battle in LSOTW. After Overlord has his superstructure peeled off you really think that wreck of a skeleton would have finished the job?

He was missing an arm and severely damaged all over.

His "mental breakdown" left him vulnerable to Impactor's blast but it was the shot that put him on the floor and a whisker away from Impactor finishing him. Of course the actual point of the story was Impactor's decision NOT to finish him off but there wasn't much Overlord could have done about it if he had.

The "point" that I don't think is contradicted is that a team powered at the level of the Wreckers could inflict enough damage on a Phase Sixer to leave them that vulnerable.

I get why certain concepts become canon, explanations of why a favourite "big-bad" is so fearsome are cool, but wanting something to be the case doesn't just make it so. At least not until a writer makes it explicit. Otherwise if Tarn joins a list of 'Cons everyone want to be unbeatable then it becomes just as easy and necessary to write up a response from a suitable Schemer like Prowl to say "Ok, the Autobot response to a Superwarrior is to nuke the bastard and see how they like that, problem solved/ war won is very short order."

Anyone want to go down that road?

 

If Grimlock and him fight I would say Grimlock, but barely and knowledge would be key. Neither one would be in 1 piece. Grimlock no arm, dino head/tail, damaged leg. Tarn burnt out transformation cog, demolished fusion cannon arm. In half at end of fight. Megatron steps in. Your fired! Now go work work with Fort Max and the Tyrest Accord.

... I can dream right?

 

fotmax and tarn? i think they'll rip eachother apart. lol... there's no tyrest accord, everything about tyrest is dead after the maniac he came to be.

 

Grimlock should have no chance in a real fight. If he catches Tarn by surprise he might be able to knock him around for a short time simply because Tarn isnt dramatically heavier, but even then the actual damage would be very minimal. Tarn is implied to be at phase sixer level which means hes at the level of Black Shadow (killed 3003 autobots in a single battle) and Overlord (dominated the entire lost light crew while unarmed).

Grimlock might be in the top tier of the naturally occuring transformers, but nothing points to him coming close to one of the warriors elite. He had serious trouble taking on Shockwave alone, even with the help of the other Dinobots. He could probably hold out slightly better than Fort Max did against Overlord but ultimately its going to play out very similarly I think.

 

Ah, see I think there is a big difference between surviving a fight with a Phase Sixer, and actually winning. We've seen Prime stand up to Sixshot before, but we've never seen any evidence of his actually doing anything more than holding him off. It's possible that someone like Optimus is similar in strength, superior in fighting skills, but still incapable of dealing truly effective damage to a UUT-enhanced chassis.

The mind-controlled guardians in Devastation seemed to be more like plot devices than actual fights. Considering the established rep of guys like Monstructor, Thunderwing and Sixshot, we should have expected some casualties, but most of those fights happened conveniently 'off-screen'. I suppose that, being under mind-control, they may not have been operating at peak lethality.

True. At this point, we can only judge Tarn on his reputation and apparent power class. If the implications are not deliberately misleading, he could be the most powerful of the UUT-class warriors due to his status as Megatron's chief enforcer.

But of course, we've never met a UUT-warrior who hasn't had substantial credentials... Sixshot's history and physical traits, Black Shadow's personal record, and everything we've seen of Overlord indicates power levels beyond any other TFs.

Um, or possibly the Autobots simply lost. And y'know... ran away?

I mean, just because there were survivors, doesn't mean Shadow didn't succeed in his objectives... and kill over 3000 Autobots in the process. 3000! That's pretty insane.

It's the obvious question. I think IDW (mostly Roberts) may have written itself into a corner, since now they're going to have to address those inconsistencies with the monsters they've created.

Yeah, I think he would have finished them, just as the Terminator at the end of the first movie would have easily finished Sarah Connor, bum leg or not. Granted the team was already pretty much down by that point. I'd forgotten that his arm pops off at the end there... impressive considering what we now know about Overlord's construction, but I'm willing to bet that Roche/Roberts hadn't yet really figured out what it was that made their Phase Sixers tick (or what it took to make them stop ticking).

Well, he wasn't fighting back. Like, at all. So it's hard to say.

It was only Impactor and a stunned Ironfist who remained. Impactor is a heavy of course, so he would have put up a fight.

As long as they have a gun that fires plot devices... er, deterrence chips.  

You're reading the situation wrong. I don't think we want to make it so. I don't like the fact that these guys are so overpowered. But they are. Prowl HAS a list, and Tarn is on that list. That is the fact you are trying to work around. The writer HAS made it explicit... or at least so implicit that it's almost fait accomplit.

If anything, I think there's a lot of unsupported Grimlock fanboyism at work here. People want Grimlock to be the be-all, end-all of macho toughness... the Incredible Hulk of Transformers. I don't think we've really seen that up till now in the IDW comics. Remember... the old cartoon got it wrong, way back when. Grimlock was supposed to be a close second to Optimus Prime in raw power, not his better.

I'm not saying that the writers at IDW don't need to address the situation with a bit more detail, and explain themselves more clearly. There's a lot of inconsistency to account for. But at this point, I think it's pretty safe to say that Grimlock (and maybe even Megatron himself) would NOT be able to take on Tarn or the other UUTs. So far, those super-warriors have been established to be unstoppable WMDs... and Grimlock has not.

I like that you noted Tarn's transformation cog would give out.  

zmog

 

Apparently Roberts gave an interview where he spilled the beans, he thinks of Megatron as a .01% forged.

I'm guessing this was foreshadowed by his lack of a "batch number" in Chaos Theory, but after recognizing this Springarm still asked whether he was forged or constructed.

Still, your point stands. When you're the guy in charge, you don't have to Weapon-X yourself and risk your very survival. (Especially when you can already hold your own against Devastator.)

And I'm glad someone mentioned Thunderwing. You'd think that if Thunderwing could have been beaten by the Super Warriors, he would have been. And yet the Wreckers did pretty well against him...I imagine if he were sane, he would be top-tier. It's also really obvious that, despite this being his stated goal, Bludgeon is not even remotely close to being as powerful, and the Autobot Pretenders aren't really unusually capable in combat at all.

 

This has really turned into a fun thread. I have been enjoying everyone's own analysis, interpretations, and arguments involving the number of variables in this matchup! I think Tarn would definitely have the edge, based on what we know AND assume about him.

On the topic of heavy-hitters and Warrior Elites, where would you guys classify IDW Star Saber in terms of power, and how would he stack up against the others we have mentioned?

I absolutely loved the portrayal of Star Saber in MTMTE as a religious fanatic/crusader. He was definitely made out to be pretty powerful despite only seeing him throughout those few issues (#18 thru #21 IIRC).

 

Well, it only makes sense, considering how exceptional Megatron seems to be (not to mention, virtually unkillable). If there are different kinds of POP sparks, I wonder what the different classifications are? Is Megatron's just in the "do not f*** with" category?  

I was just thinking about this, actually. Bludgeon failed to achieve the same symbiosis that Thunderwing did in Stormbringer, but hypothetically, he should still be terrifyingly powerful (he was one of Jhiaxus' guardians in Devastation). However, since then we haven't really seen him do anything notable. It seems like some of his history is getting neglected somehow...

Speaking of neglected, have the Autobot Pretenders actually appeared in IDW as Pretenders yet? It rings a bell, but I totally forget when that happened.

Star Saber is a total unknown. All we know is that he made quick work of Dai Atlas... but despite his grandiose aura, Dai Atlas seems to have a history of sucking in IDW. Defeating him may not be such a big deal.

He lost to Cyclonus, but that was more of a skill duel... hard to say what his physical capabilities are.

zmog

 

Yeah; one of them subsequently lost a battle to the death with a Sweep. They just have anti-Dead Universe space suits that are based on the same technology.

Star Saber is huge and he can teleport, so he's doing pretty well already for Cybertronians in this universe. If his power is as versatile as Skywarp's (who can teleport multiple beings many kilometers, and also claims to be able to do deadly "Kitty Pryde" style shenanigans) then he's serious bad news. But he's probably more of a "Bludgeon" than a "Sixshot." And there is NO evidence that Dai Atlas is a great fighter, however most Cybertronians who are as big as him are implied to be powerful Forged.