Could a sane Grimlock defeat Tarn?

Discussion in 'Transformers Comics Discussion' started by General Magnus, Apr 13, 2014.

  1. SMOG

    SMOG Vocabchampion ArgueTitan

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    Um..?

    Did you actually read Autocracy and Monstrosity? Is this a test?

    Because that doesn't happen in either story. Orion Pax gets wrecked in Autocracy by Zeta Prime... and then, while Pax is staggering and they're still supposed to be working together, Megatron shoots Pax in the back. That's not a fight. Then later, in Monstrosity, Optimus gets thrashed and stomped on by Trypticon. Megatron has nothing to do with his condition.

    Megatron beats Optimus in the Infiltration arc, while charged up on Ore-13. Then in the backstory for AHM, Megatron does beat Optimus and take the Matrix when the Autobots are tricked and ambushed. This doesn't make Megatron superior though... as explained in Chaos Theory, Prime and Megs have each nearly killed each other many times over.

    Actually, Batman beat Prometheus, remember? At least the time I saw them face each other.

    But this is why there's a running joke about there being TWO Batmen... the one in his one monthly book, and the one who interacts with the rest of the DC Universe. In his own book, he has to show occasional vulnerability to make the stories interesting... he occasionally fails becaue he's human. In the rest of the DC Universe, Batman is virtually unbeatable. In fact, the afore-mentioned Prometheus' first appearance was when he defeated the entire Justice League... except Batman, who had to save the day.

    Yes, Bats loses sometimes, but overall he's still DC's Wolverine, and consistently punches above his weight. :) 

    I disagree. I think IDW Grimlock gets to flex his muscles, but he doesn't come across as unbeatable or overpowered. Sometimes he wins, sometimes he loses. The only time IDW showed him to be really exceptionally powerful was in Monstrosity when they were trying to make the Dinobots into werewolves or something. Thank god that idea has quietly faded away. :redface2: 

    I kind of agree with you there. I never liked the cartoon-style idiot Grimlock. I like him to have rough manners. He's not a genius. Even give him a "speech impediment" like Dreamwave did... but he's also not a five-year-old. I think that "brain-damage Grimlock" is going to get tiresome if they drag it out any longer.

    Just for fun, and because everyone knows I love the old Tech Specs, I'm going to point out that G1 Grimlock's stats gave him a 10 rating in Strength and Endurance, and a 10 rating in Skill. The 10 in Skill is especially impressive next to the other Dinobots, who are all pretty thuggish (low skill scores). Grimlock is a pretty well-rounded warrior, and has above-average intelligence (7). There are very few characters in the first few years of Tech Specs with overall stats that high... basically just him and Optimus. Even Megatron and Shockwave have lower Skill and Endurance ratings.

    That's if you put much stock into the Tech Spec scores, of course.

    So yeah, Grimlock is still a serious beast. I just don't think his IDW version needs to be the toughest guy on the block. And I think Tarn probably still outclasses him, unless Tarn turns out to be vastly overrated...

    zmog
     
  2. Dead Metal

    Dead Metal Well-Known Member

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    I think Tarn is a bit overrated (in terms of in-universe), remember we've only seen him in action while under the influence of the super energon, which the DJD have stated makes them way more powerful than they usually are.
    Braindead Grimlock gave Tarn quite a trashing before his reflexes stopped. As far as we know, the DJD could just be super tough way above average solders at Grimlock's level.

    So far idw Grimlock was treated as a powerful and determined fighter, who is also very intelligent. Spotlight Shockwave was basically about how Shockwave had no chance against the Dinobots because they had both smarts and emotions, while he just had smarts and actually had to create an "artificial" rage just to survive. We're also told that after reavakening on Earth Grimlock tinkered with his body hoping, but failing, to change his alt-mode back to a vehicle instead of the T-Rex.

    On top of all this, idw, and especially MTMTE has shown that we shouldn't always believe the hype surrounding someone or something. It showed us that everyone believed Ultra Magnus to be an immortal unstoppable law enforcer - turns out it's a bunch of guys who take up the identity after one dies.
     
  3. ZeroiaSD

    ZeroiaSD Autobot

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    That was the second confrontation. First Promie won, second Bats.


    Don't expect it to be simply fixed up fast- that's not how this type of injury normally works. Though I do expect he'll recover and be more him-like over time. And while chronologically it's been awhile, we've only seen him this way for two issues. Not exactly 'dragging it out'!

    Yea, Grimlock is *impressive* there. And IMO that's very much the Grimlock we've had, pre-Garrus 9.
     
  4. bigpoppanick

    bigpoppanick Member

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    I'm gonna have to re read those two arcs.

    And yeah, Prometheus took out the entire JLA in Morrison's run, only to be beaten by a disguised Catwoman with a whip to the cajones.
     
  5. SMOG

    SMOG Vocabchampion ArgueTitan

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    He suckerpunched Tarn twice. I wouldn't say that's "quite a thrashing". You don't walk up to Mike Tyson, punch him in the face twice, and then fall unconscious, and call that "quite a thrashing". :) 

    And Tarn isn't "overrated"... we've been told point-blank that Grimlock's power "pales" next to Tarn's. In no uncertain terms, Prowl (who is a very precise individual) confirmed that none of the Autobot heavy hitters compare to the top Decepticon heavies (Phase-sixers and Tarn).

    Tarn might have a secret. The Nucleon probably helps (though that seems to have been a more recent development). But according to everything we know now about Tarn, he is significantly more powerful than Grimlock... or Prime... or Megatron....

    That's an... interesting... take on that story. Very editorial, I'd say. The Dinobots ganged up on Shockwave, and Shockwave had to "rediscover" whatever rage/adrenaline effect the Senate had erased from his mind before the war... at which point, he started knocking the Dinobots around, much like he did back in G1 Marvel. Then later, in Maximum Dinobots, Shockwave gets into a sham battle with Grimlock, basically pretending to take it seriously until Soundwave completes his mission. Then he tosses Grimlock aside (who is so damaged at that point that he can even get to his feet to try to stop Shockwave... so he throws a grenade on the floor instead.

    Based on the evidence, Shockwave is at least as powerful as Grimlock... if not MORE powerful.

    Which is confusing, because according to Monstrosity, he already had a super-powerful dino-mode. But I'm willing to chalk that mostly up to sloppy writing. Monstrosity was pretty bad.

    Yes... though Magnus is not necessarily any less competent because of it. Indeed, Minimus has probably had the longest tenure as Magnus since the original, and has been shown to be -extremely- powerful... enough that even Scorponok was afraid to face him. Of course, Overlord still took him out like a punk. As did the DJD on the Lost Light II.

    Does it count if Batman escapes and owns him in the rematch? :) 

    Injuries of "this type" generally don't adhere to any particular rules in comic books about alien robots. :) 

    It's dragged out in the sense that his condition was introduced 38 issues ago, so since then, the only time we've seen him has been as an infantile catatonic who wets himself. I really don't need to see this used as an excuse to transition us into a "dumb Grimlock" norm.

    Furman's IDW Grimlock always felt a bit too wordy... but I don't want Cartoon Grimlock in IDW

    So we agree.

    zmog
     
  6. Sumner Sturgeon

    Sumner Sturgeon It's not easy being the best~

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    It's weird that I never find myself thinking this hard about power levels and who can beat whom while reading not-RID or Windblade. I think Roberts kinda handicaps his own writing by spending so much time explaining the powers of .1%-ers, Phase Sixers, Outliers and the like...like, it gets to the point where it feels like there's this kind of sorting algorithm of who's allowed to win against who else, with the only exceptions being stuff like psychological warfare (Overlord's trigger word) or fighting dirty (Cyclonus stabbing Star Saber while he was busy monologuing). Compare that to the other comics, where the odds can be stacked pretty unevenly, but the "weaker" party can still win. Galvatron killed a supposedly "immortal" Prime in the past, Starscream slaughtered a freaking Metrotitan by shooting him in the brain...I prefer when fights are won by determination or strategy, rather than anime-esque power level dick-measuring.
     
  7. ZeroiaSD

    ZeroiaSD Autobot

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    Batman didn't escape the first time, he flat-lost and Catwoman ended up helping save the day.

    Psychological trauma stuff is something that been shown to take a lot of time to recover from even in IDW, even less major examples than this. Plus it's clearly analogous to the human condition.

    Still, never pin hopes on a clearly built-up story on just suddenly ending. Resolving the situation in just an issue or two would be crappy storytelling, and it's certainly not how Roberts ever plays anything.

    It's not being 'dragged out,' it is being brought on-stage to be addressed, but certainly not to just pack it away and end the plotline.

    I don't think we're going to that, it's playing what happened to Grimlock a lot more seriously than the cartoon.

    We might, once he's recovered, have the verbal tick, but I don't think we're getting silly-dumb Grimlock.
     
  8. SMOG

    SMOG Vocabchampion ArgueTitan

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    I think I'm mixing it up with another story where Batman saves the JLA. I think I read that issue at the stand almost 20 years ago now, so the details are foggy.

    My point was simply that expecting a realistic depiction of rehabilitation after mental or physical trauma in comic books is probably unfounded.

    Considering how relatively stagnant Transformers are in terms of their psychological development over millions of years, it would stand to reason that recovering from such things would take a correspondingly long time... but then, on the other hand, Tfs also seem to bounce back rather magically from things too. A little mnemosurgery could go a long way. :) 

    I disagree. Roberts actually does do that exact thing. He likes to seed stories and mysteries early on, but will often leave them virtually untouched for months and months, and then finally resolve them abruptly in a single issue. His resolutions are almost never as good as the lead-up.

    And my point is this... I really don't need this Grimlock situation stretched out. I don't think it's all that interesting. I don't like Grimlock as a shell-shocked peon. I hope it resolves itself soon.

    However, if it means we get to protract the Scavengers story a bit longer, I'll put up with it, because that's something else we've waited 38 issues for, and it feels like a two-parter isn't quite going to cut it. :p 

    Well, I guess we'll see, won't we?

    Except that the whole situation itself is a callback to the G1 cartoon "Me, Grimlock" version of the character... with a twist! Personally, I'm not even fully convinced that after millions of years of pit-fighting, guerilla fighting, and all out war, that 2 years in Garrus-9 with Overlord would necessarily do that to Grimlock. To me, Grimlock is enough of a borderline sociopath himself that being a mute witness to Overlord's excesses is probably something he could handle without snapping. But who knows... there could be more to that story.

    Well, we already are... except it's silly-dumb-sad Grimlock. It's only a slight difference. :) 

    zmog
     
  9. Dead Metal

    Dead Metal Well-Known Member

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    Grimlock punched him hard three times, knocking him to the ground at which point Tesarus attacked him from behind slamming him into the ground, then Tarn transforms an rolls over him at which point it's stated that Grimlock isn't even fighting anymore.
    So yes, he was giving him quite a thrashing until his reflexes (that likely only ever kicked in because he was released out of a pod) just turned off.

    Oerrated in universe. What you're bringing up is exactly what I was referring to. Tarn has the image of an unstoppable, emotionless killing machine in the idw verse. That's the opinion most everyone has of him. It is not necessarily an actual fact, since we now know that he's been juiced up on Nucleon for three years and actually does have emotions and feelings for his fellow Decepticons.
    Everything we know is the keyword, we have only ever met him pumped up on Nucleon and stories by people who are terrified of him.
    It'S what the story was based on his internal dialogue, and the reason the Dinobots ganged up onhim him the first place was because they tracked him to Earth after an incident. An incident in which the Dinobots defeated Shockwave and secured a bunch of Energon, which he then blew up out of spite. The Dinobots follow him to kill him off. Shockwave mentions how his lack of primal emotions is what's making him an underdog.
    Also the Empurata thing, was not a thing back when the story was originally written, but it still makes no difference, he had no rage mode and had to create his own to have a chance.
    The whole issue was about him evolving into something more powerful (note the dying Mammoths who couldn't adapt to the new circumstances, and him declaring "I am evolved" after adapting to the situation and discovering his rage mode.
    Grimlock was also already trashed from the fight with the other four Dinobots before his fought Shockwave.
    Yes, he very likely is more powerful, the whole way he was treated during that early era very much had him pinned down as a powerhouse.
    Monstrosity is awful, the whole trilogy is awful and doesn't add up with previous material. Grimlockand the rest of the Dinobots all had vehicle mods, you could even see the threads. Monstrosity however, was written by a hack who thought constantly referencing the stuff he worked on in the 80s made for good writing.
    Never said that it diminished Magnus/Minimus's abilities. I just pointed out how Magnus was over-hyped by the inhabitants of the idw verse who had practically declared him an immortal law man. But he was not immortal as we find out, the original died and was just replaced by others to pretended to be him, to keep the legend of Magnus being an immortal law man alive.
    Which is again something that's true for the DJD, we know that when one of them dies they get replaced and their replacement takes not only their position but identity.
    Tarn could be the original Tarn, but he could also be the most current. He's still very, very powerful, but we don't know how powerful exactly because, well nucleon.

    That's what I've said in the last post, he might be overhyped by the idw cast, but the hype could still be very real.
     
  10. General Magnus

    General Magnus Da Custodes of the Emprah

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    And yet, the Decepticons din´t really win the war.
     
  11. ZeroiaSD

    ZeroiaSD Autobot

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    Personally, I bet the Autobot's better scientists are to blame.

    Decepticon science is focused on making superwarriors and combiners and wonder weapons. Autobots have better ships, better sensors, better and more medics, and a ton of pull a rabbit out of the hat victories. Wheeljack effectively beat Turmoil, and Devastator. Perceptor found Monstructor's weak point. Ratchet is better than the Decepticon's best and Pharma is about as good. And the war is so big, local advantage from a few superwarriors only goes so far... Especially when sometimes the superwarriors get caught in forcefields, or gravity traps or stasis guns or whatever the Autobot scientists came up with.
     
  12. Autovolt 127

    Autovolt 127 Get In The Titan, Prime!

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    I still think its just weird how the war just ended but nobody really won.
     
  13. UltraGalvatron1

    UltraGalvatron1 General Kenobi, you are a bold one.

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    Obviously ;) 
     
  14. SMOG

    SMOG Vocabchampion ArgueTitan

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    Nope. You might want to check your math on that one. :wink: 

    Grimlock suckerpunches Tarn right out of the coffin, and then delivers a follow up punch to the gut. That's it. Tarn is never knocked down. Grimlock punches Kaon after that, and then Tesarus slams him.

    Even so, you don't help your case by drawing attention to the fact that after two completely blindsiding "hard" surprise strikes from Grimlock, Tarn is already on top of Grimlock a second later. In other words, he just shrugged off two free shots from "one of the most powerful Autobots in existence". There's no evidence whatsoever that Tarn was any more than surprised by Grimlock. Indeed, Tarn seems much more hurt (or at least shaken) when he gets stomped on by the Cybernaut.

    They kicked in because he was jolted with circuit boosters, which are known performance enhancers. Again, two suckerpunches are not a "thrashing"... especially if your opponent doesn't even seem to be anything more than jostled and annoyed by your attacks.

    I don't think that his having emotions necessarily contradicts his reputation for being powerful. Knowing that somewhere deep inside he still has a kind of conscience (albeit one informed by his fanaticism) makes him seem like less of a sadist... but no less unstoppable.

    In fact, most of that "unstoppable" reputation belongs to the DJD as a group. There is only one time that I remember Tarn being specifically referenced as being extremely powerful, and that came not from a terrified peon, but from a very reliable source (Prowl). And presumably Tarn's rep was earned loooong before 3 years ago (which is pretty damn recent, in Cybertronian terms).

    And of course, the DJD IS that powerful. It's not just a matter of reputation. Even allowing for the Nuke, 5 of them did massacre the entire Lost Light. Five of them, against what... 300 bots, including some very tough bots. That happened... and it didn't even seem that difficult for them.

    Do the DJD have an almost superstitious cult of terror surrounding them, which inflates their abilities through fear and hearsay? Sure. Is Tarn not a UUT-class super-warrior? Hard to say. Evidence points to him being one, though it could be a bunch of other factors, or enhancements of a different kind.

    If anyone other than Prowl had cited him as one of the Decepticons who puts the top Autobots to shame, I might be more willing to attribute it to hyperbole. But I think Prowl is more likely to be basing that assessment on hard evidence.

    However Tarn is "jacked up" (exoskeleton, POP spark, UUT, circuit boosters, nuke, whatever), I think we can safely say that he's powerful as hell... to be mentioned in the same company as Sixshot and Overlord.

    Yes... which means that physically, he is absolutely capable of trashing the Dinobots (or at least matching them). He just had to summon up the fighting spirit to do so. That isn'ta contradiction, it's a confirmation that Shockwave is every bit that powerful... as long as he wants to be. They're robots after all. Emotions don't necessarily make machines stronger. Shockwave just had to fully access the power and the tenaciousness that he already physically possessed.

    What you're saying is that in the middle of a tense outnumbered battle, when enemies already had him totally on the ropes, Shockwave spontaneously re-wrote part of his personality, and then proceeded to turn the tide of battle... just one of him, against all five Dinobots.

    What you've demonstrated there is exactly WHY Shockwave is so damn powerful. Getting angry isn't "cheating", after all. :lol 

    Then he went on in Maximum Dinobots to smack around both Headmaster-enhanced Scorponok and then Grimlock again. All evidence points to Shockwave being one of the most powerful non-UUT Decepticons (this is consistent with G1), and at the very least a match for Grimlock, if not superior. It's hard to get around that... it has all been demonstrated.

    I think I'd call that more of a thematic "footnote" rather than what the "whole issue was about". He didn't physically evolve into a more powerful being. He simply changed his psychological mindset... creating a stronger will to survive... something that every other TF already has inherently. Shockwave didn't get "boosted"... he simply recovered (or simulated) a part of himself that he'd lost.

    It's true that the Empurata plot wasn't written at that time, but it was already part of Shockwave's character that he was logical and emotionless. Deciding to "simulate anger" isn't a magic potion. It's something he did in the heat of the moment.

    And Shockwave was damaged from fighting Scorponok mere seconds earlier (a fight he won... unlike Grimlock, who lost to Scorponok). Then Shockwave let Grimlock chew on him for a while, until he no longer had to keep up the farce, and then he tossed Grimlock aside.

    No matter how you slice it, Shockwave really seems to come out on top in these comparisons.

    Well, it's always been part of him. His G1 profile calls him "second only to Megatron in power" (much as Grimlock is described as being second only to Optimus Prime). And Budiansky, who created all those characters, wrote the stories where both Shockwave and Megatron each pretty much owned the Dinobots.

    Marvel's Grimlock started to get a bit more respect as the series went on... treating him as more of an exceptional individual... but early on, it's clear that even for the "second place" guys, there can still be a huge differential in power.

    Yeah, the editorial staff at IDW was especially slack about those stories... and probably somewhat burdened by pressure to tie in with other stuff going on in the Transformers spectrum (like tying the Dinobots in with the Fall of Cybertron game versions). I wouldn't mind the trilogy nearly as much if they smoothed over some of the continuity inconsistencies and bumps.

    Autocracy was at least slightly better written than Monstrosity. The dialogue in Monstrosity was especially lame.

    I wonder if that is public knowledge... ?

    Yeah, it's possible that there have been other Tarns... I suspect this one has been around for quite a while though, if he's not the first.

    Is it still "hype" if it's real? :) 

    Well.. the UUTs are still just like... 5 or 6 guys, right? They may be individually powerful, but we know that they're still susceptible to extremely heavy artillery (Hedonian missiles), truly massive applications of force (getting stomped by Metroplex), underhanded tricks (Whirl vs Killmaster), and possibly Omega Supreme, who pretty much owned Devastator. The Autobots still have equalizers.

    Also, added to that is the tendency for the Super Warriors to be insubordinate. Overlord, Black Shadow, and even Sixshot (briefly) all went rogue, and Tarn implied that Black Shadow was not the first Phase-Sixer that they had to "discipline".

    I agree with your other points, but can we please forget that happened? Ugh.

    Well... I mean, the Autobots pretty much won. They were clearly in charge after CHAOS, and then when Megatron came back, the bots beat him again, and imprisoned him in stasis. And then later, Megatron was put on trial and recanted, and switched sides (under probationary measures).

    It may have been a more diplomatic victory than a military one, but it seems like the Bots pretty much won.

    zmog
     
  15. ZeroiaSD

    ZeroiaSD Autobot

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    Hah, fair enough :)  I agree not the best moment.


    Right. And a bunch of the Decepticons ripped off their symbols and went neutral too- Starscream's power base is largely Nails, not cons, after all.

    All this stuff happening after is because Autobot victory is 'everyone lives together, without killing each other and electing leaders.'

    Which just turned out to be weird ^^