Controversial Opinion: Transformers should go back to Marvel.

Discussion in 'Transformers Comics Discussion' started by Orbitalchaos, Jan 29, 2021.

  1. Reask

    Reask Predacon

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    Well that's how I feel about them taking the Star Wars and Conan license. Yeah yeah Marvel had those licences before but Dark Horse did so much more with them.

    Alien and Predator though okay that was definitely stolen Marvel never had the license for those before and it's because of Dark Horse that Alien vs Predator is a concept. I doubt Marvel would ever credit them for that they'll be wishing they came up with it.
     
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  2. raindance773

    raindance773 Well-Known Member

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    It's not stealing if the corporation who had the IPs sold them, or lost the right to write the stories from the actual owner. You may not like it, but there is a definite difference in buying something and stealing. Marvel did not steal; they bought.
     
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  3. KJ_81

    KJ_81 The Fourth Datsun Brother

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    Dark Horse definitely did great great things with those franchises, and told some great stories. Unfortunately they're at the whim of the license holder when it comes to license renewals, and the holder spoke, and they chose to make a change and go with Marvel. That's a huge difference to stolen licenses, and it's important we don't muddy the waters with our distinctions.
     
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  4. dj_convoy II

    dj_convoy II Remix!

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    Yeah; no one is stealing anything. They pay the license holder and the license holder decides who they want to go with. Is IDW "stealing" when they put out Marvel or Star Wars books?
     
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  5. Nemesis Scar

    Nemesis Scar Avatar by @Shadefish1

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    Yes, so much more, like Star Wars Legacy!
     
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  6. BB Shockwave

    BB Shockwave Behold, Gagatron!

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    Back in 1990, maybe I would have agreed with you.
    But today? After the reboots, character reimaginations, pandering to certain overcritical elements who never even read comics, and mostly the dumb plots they pull... DC is terrible too (I literally fell off my chair at Baby Darkseid... but they made it worse with teenage angsty Darkseid!) but Marvel pulled some nonsense of late. Doc Ock brainjacking Peter Parker then just pretending to be Spiderman for what was it, a year? The nonsense that went on in the Ultimate line, where every character got either killed or turned into a despicable creep or monster (they had the Maximoff twins do incest, lest you forget)... Peter Parker selling his marriage off to Mephisto so his 90 year old looking aunt May is cured? The horrible crap they did with poor Hank Pym, turning one drunken moment into making him a wifebeater and a horrible person, to the levels he is essentially mostly a supporting character now,or often gets turned into a villain (like last time when he merged with Ultron)... Then Thor, who got unworthy and lost the hammer and Jane Foster became Thor, completely ignoring the fact Thor is a NORSE GOD and even without the hammer he would still be Thor (that old storyline where he is in the body of some human has been not used in decades), nor that other heroes and villains (like Beta Ray Bill) have wielded the hammer before and they did not rename themselves Thor, since, y'know, that's his name, it does not automatically comes with his powers. X-Men, now there is another chestnut, remember the Phoenix? Now there was a story where it inhabited like half the main cast because why not, and they all went crazy, ignoring that Jean already had psychic powers that was kinda needed for the Phoenix Force. Then some time travel nonsense strands the young 60ies era X-Men in the future and you'd think this would be fun for a few issues but nope they stay for what seems forever, mudding up the timeline. Wolverine dies, for reals kiddos, sure, like we didn't know he would be back. But then he dies for EVEN more REALS!!! ... Oh nope he and every other X-Men killed just gets cloned and Xavier has his memories stored conveniently. Also they added his evil weeaboo son and some stupid wolf spirit mystical dude who might or might not be his father, I long given up on caring.


    So no, I want them to stay as far away from TF comics as possible.
    Honestly with time I understood I liked certain comics because they were written by the same team or person, without company meddling. Furman's saga in Marvel was not influenced by pushing him to introduce new characters, he did so on his own will when he needed to bring in new characters not because Hasbro pushed him (like they did with Budiansky). And Marvel back then did not force runs to reboot completely and change the personalities of characters every 2-3 years like how IDW did it - after Furman came Shane, then Costa, than Roberts and Barber and now this new guy, and each time characters often completely changed,usually for the worse.
    This is honestly why often prefer cartoons to comics. The DC Animated Universe is far less of a continuity mess than the comic version for example.
    I have stopped following IDW, I skim through their issues every few months or so, but I completely lost interest. Same goes for DC and Marvel too. Luckily I never had most of their comics as a kid (iron curtain and communism does that to a country) so I can enjoy reading classic and actually good comics for the first time now. I find that past stories are just immensely better. No dumb repeating talking head panels due to lazy artists, stories are contained in 1 book or 2-5 issue story arc and are not written for a trade, and mostly stuff actually happens every issue, they are not just dragging out things like the current ongoing TF comic does. Similar really to TV shows where these days every series is written to be binged with basically 1 season being a 8-hour movie cut into smaller parts... I just prefer the old style.

    60 years? Why I aughttaa... you young Rippersnappers! (shakes cane) :D  I am not THAT old!
    I still enjoy old Marvel TF comics - the Furman stuff more than Budiansky, but early Budiansky stuff was also strong - even today. It's why it is criminal that this Definitive Collection thing refuses to ship to Hungary. Poland is soooo lucky. I reread them digitally of course, but would like to have them in hardcopy... Hungary only got around 70% of the US run released, and no G2. Honestly, I feel Hasbro/Marvel should think about doing animated movie adaptations of some of its classic moments and story arcs, same as DC does. Target 2006, Time Wars, the Survivors stories with Springer and Carnivac, early Marvel US with he Shockwave/Megatron power struggle and Circuit Breaker...

    Yeah, they are wasted on Marvel. Death's Head met Iron Man on a S.W.O.R.D. comic but mostly did little, to be honest and felt like a cameo. Not sure if he ever showed up after that. Let's not mention Death's Head II and that short lived Doombot style 3.0 version.
    I dunno if Josie Beller even showed up ever after that Beyonder talk, which they used to have her rights.

    That already exists, but the damn british localpatriots don't even wanna take my money I am trying to keep throwing at them.
    https://hachettepartworks.com/en-en/transformers-definitive-g1-collection/

    Agreed. I am thankful to IDW and current era DC and Marvel for one thing, it made me go back and re-read actually good older comics, before the industry went down the drain.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2021
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  7. Rapidfirestormer

    Rapidfirestormer Not Even Remotely Dorky

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    She has not. Closest thing was the Neo Knights series Furman had planned but never got produced.
     
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  8. KJ_81

    KJ_81 The Fourth Datsun Brother

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    Some of your Marvel examples are extremely dated, having occurred not one but now TWO decades ago. If you're going to criticise them, at least use some more recent and applicable criticism (eg criticism of early Ultimate universe stuff). It's only fair.
     
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  9. TheLastBlade

    TheLastBlade Well-Known Member

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    If it makes anyone feel better, the Conan shit marvel has isn’t really helping them.
     
  10. StrifeZ

    StrifeZ Well-Known Member

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    The problem isn't what IDW has done. The problem what IDW is doing.

    Transformers had been among, if not their top book. It had their best artists and best writers. Overall, it had the best production values, and the world building going on was among the best in comics. And this went on for years and years. But really, with the start of the RID / MTME era, and everything that came after, it was the goldage of Transformers comics. They did so well they spawned the whole "Hasbroverse spin off comics". GI Joe, MASK and so forth. Those did not do well. They ended, Transformers continued.

    Thing is, Transformers sold great for IDW, but never really sold great compared to basically anything else. The last time it regularly peaked above 11,000 units sold per month was 10 years ago. It spent most of the 2010s in the 10k range. Nowdays, its going down to 9k. Back in 2007, it was selling around 15k. The franchise objectively has 30k seller all over, hanging around the mid 70s. But it's never happened in recent times at IDW. For contrast, Power Rangers was doing about 18,000 units pre-Covid.

    IDW shut down the Hasbroverse, then shutdown that entire IDW Continuity. Why? Well there are certainly creative reasons why. They had written themselves so far off the bread and butter of the franchise that there simply was never a realistic return to it for a clean start. It had gotten very continuity thick. And with the franchise wide emphasis on "War for Cybertron" via Siege/Earthrise/Kingdom, it would be a very unnatural fit for synergizing the comic books as they were with the new toys.

    But the other reason is Transformers probably got a lot more expensive for them. They used a lot of artists for a lot of years (that got pricer). The longer artists work on a given book, the more they ask for for pay in order to keep working on it. Want to know why many of our favorite artists of yesteryear no longer work at marvel and only select big name ones do (Mark Bagely, Salvador La Rocca, among others)? This is why. Leinel Francis Yu just priced himself out of X-Men in the last few months.

    The old IDW continuity was gifted with consistent artists, with work intensive art styles, for years on end, and they produced in my view the best looking comic on the shelves. A comic though that solid 9500 units. Let's put that in context. Before digital, a comic would bring in $37,905 in revenues at that price. What are the creative costs of making that book? Very established artists can make mid-to-high triple digits per page, for 20 pages. Mid-tier artists, about $200-$250 per page for 20 pages. New artists who need the work, between $85 - $150. So just for art, 20 pages at $200 = $4000, whereas at $85 it's $1700.

    Marvel makes use of this a lot, which is why so many of their pencilers have been at the company for a handful of years. It's cheap talent. It's not that they couldn't get the best pencilers of the past 30 years. They elect not to except for special events. One of the best examples of this is Oliver Copiel, one of their best artists of the past 20 years. When he was getting established, he was a workhorse. Nowdays? They give him a cover, and a miniseries, and an occasional run. He's at the top of his creative skills, but he's also been working for Marvel since the early 2000s and rightfull demands the pay commensurate with that.

    We obviously don't know what the "old" IDW artists got paid, but the pattern we see at IDW is the same as Marvel. They do miniseries, fill ins and one-shots now. They're doing commissions, but generally aren't doing major work elsewhere. They are "available". Instead, IDW has seemingly replaced them with cheaper talent harvested from the internet. The modern IDW Transformers comics generally look very bad. They're also almost certainly far cheaper to produce. Simply, the Transformers artist with dozens of issues under their belt is going to be pricer than the artist with an Instagram account and a lot to prove. But equally, a business case can be made for doing that, because Transformers sells 9500, not 3000. Why should a book cost more if it is going to sell the same regardless? Why should IDW pay $200 per page rather than $85?

    Personally, my gut tells me IDW doesn't give a fig about the licenses with Hasbro anymore. Certainly not like it did a number of years ago, when it was at the center of their publishing strategy. Now, everything about them has an air of "passive aggressive contractual obligation / it pays the bills". But IDW is also hanging on by a thread.

    So what's the solution for Transformers? Going to Marvel won't do anything. It'll be the same thing, just with a Marvel logo on it. It'll be a little league for cheap new talent. DC will never take it - they're massively de-emphasizing print and cutting to like 35 printed books a month. Boom will just be IDW mark 2. The best, and most cost effective route, is for Hasbro to hire freelancers tand push it through some kind of "Hasbro Pulse" app as a digital only (along with their cartoon library, and other franchises), but that requires such a platform to exist.

    But really nothing can save Tranformers comics, because it is a comic book, and the entire industry, which amazingly is so inbred that it has completely failed to advance the state of the industry even while super hero movies are the largest audience draws in the world, is probably doomed. In the end, the problem isn't Transformers and IDW. The problem is every Direct Market store (Comic book store) and the industry's absolute subservice to protecting their existence and catering to an increasingly older reader, at the expense of expanding their audience and commercial markets.

    If IDW is still around in 10 years, Transformers will have new, cheap talent then, probably be on its 3rd reboot, and be selling 7500 units. Because the slow decline is what comics is all about nowdays.

    Frankly, I think in it's own way, the big break between the end of phase 3 with Endgame and Spider-Man FFH, and the start of Phase 4 with Wandavision and it's new direction (especially the movie/TV synergizing) is going to end up being very very very good for the MCU, completely unplanned as it was. Endgame was such a definitive end to a thing, the only move is to make what comes next just completely different, and the a crucial componenet of that is seperation and time, so it isn't compared. Like imagine if Covid never was a thing Black Widow premiered in May 2020 as originally planned. The focus would be on "Black Widow 2 when" and "Avengers 5", not what-the-actual-fuck is going on in Wandavision. It would have felt more like a coda, than a new beginning. Wandavision feels like a fresh start.
     
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  11. Murasame

    Murasame

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    I don't care if it stays with idw. I would at least give it a try with Marvel. Idw ran a great run of transformers into the ground with their crossovers and bombed the finale badly with unicron and their Optimus sucked so much. What a waste of a former ultimate transformers lore. But I also don't feel like investing more energy in a new continuity after the old one. I rather think of the great stories we had and what could have been. I have probably like 10 unread issues of the new book and or galaxies, I don't even know what it's name really was. It just doesn't stick with me.
     
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  12. agp

    agp Well-Known Member

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    I don’t know how anyone can trust Marvel at this point. The house of ideas has collapsed and a shanty of gimmicks and crossovers put up in it’s place. IDW isn’t bad enough to roll the dice Marvel. If we were talking about Dark Horse taking a shot at transformers I’d be onboard.

    I just reread the ruckley stuff and got current. It reads much better that way than when I was getting it monthly. I feel like it’s rolling now. I’d rate it higher than what followed dark cybertron. I still have some gripes, I’m not sure Ruckley can do Optimus right, Chromia is horrible and drags down every scene she’s in, setups need to be more entertaining and the art.
     
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  13. TheLastBlade

    TheLastBlade Well-Known Member

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    Plus, remember all the shitty trailers they tried to promote their future garbage on YouTube? Fucking LOL xD
     
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  14. Hobbes-timus Prime

    Hobbes-timus Prime TFW2005 Supporter

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    "Marvel's catering to an audience that doesn't even read their comics...anyway, here's a paragraph of evidence that I haven't picked up a Marvel book in a decade."
     
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  15. TheLastBlade

    TheLastBlade Well-Known Member

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    I mean why buy garbage when we can find it on the Internet? That way, we can determine that it’s not even worth reading for free :p 
     
  16. Grimlock528

    Grimlock528 Well-Known Member

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    I say, go back to Marvel, hand the creative reigns to Furman and Guidi. Since IDW sits on that talent and can’t utilize them the way they should.
     
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  17. moonDUST

    moonDUST Well-Known Member

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    As much as I love Furmans work from the 80s I wouldn't want him in a 'creative reign' position. I don't mind the occasional one shot or limited series, but I rather have new talent. They move the franchise forward and expand the lore. MCDonnough and Patyk did during Dreamwave and the guys at IDW added a lot the past decade.
     
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  18. Deruji

    Deruji International Traditional 2D Animator

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    I know this exists and is exactly what I did not mean. I mean a MARVEL Omnibus edition with print quality at least matching the originals and unaltered artwork (meaning not the changes done in the IDW and Hachette editions). All the Marvel released material.
    With all the problems of the Hachette editions I cannot consider it definitive or top quality.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2021
  19. Matthew Haskett

    Matthew Haskett Well-Known Member

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    At each that’s true for most of their books but true only one I’ve been reading is Spider-man and there hasn't been a clear beginning, middle, and ending for maybe 1 1/2 years I think. :) 
     
  20. dj_convoy II

    dj_convoy II Remix!

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    I think Simon would be a great EDITOR at this point, and maybe chipping in once in awhile with a story. I think he'd be a great person to kind of steward Transformers and keep it feeling right.
     
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