Captain Picard returns to tv...

Discussion in 'Movies and Television' started by pinoy78, Aug 4, 2018.

  1. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    I don’t recall Troi ever being able to read Data.
    As a matter of fact in ‘Tin Man’, the guy who came to read Gomtuu was insanely more sensitive than Troi- to the point of being driven insane- and he couldn’t read Data.
     
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  2. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    Im not the one confused here, But sure let’s look at your example
    Notice how it says Not endowed?

    Endowed refers to something given or received or equipped not something that is by nature of mechanics , After all even a human body without a consciousness is as inanimate as a tree......It might be alive but it wouldn’t have life

    That definition is speaking of “life” in the Metaphysical run and not the biological, it is not excluding things like trees and plants that are alive but also not endowed with “life” as you and I would call being alive

    The problem here is that the definition doesn’t address the definition of life itself......And even if it did , life itself can be defined in many different ways depending on the subject matter.And perhaps that’s where this point of contention comes from, what the concept of biomatter would actually be

    Right now, there are a few companies working on 3D printers that might be able to start Making replacement flesh for people using one’s own cells, Maybe one day replacement organs.Most likely the first few steps would be in working on skin and Cartlidge and it’s my understanding that we might be about 5 to 10 years away from being able to 3-D print a skin for people such as burn victims or for grafts.But like I said the technology is envisioned to use a donors own cells

    I picture that, in Picards time, any such biomatter would be totally be made of Synthetic materials that a “3D” printer molds into a humanoid body the way a modern 3D printer molds objects out of plastic

    From what I recall the simple the Synthoid Tech from GIJoe was described quite similar, If I remember the term they said that they were made from genetic engineering chemicals.I believe terminator T 800 were also describe the same way.

    There is no miss use of the word here, again are used a comparison and said that I feel it is “more literal the metaphorical”

    I never intended a word for word translation
    Nit the best example since it isn’t a complete list

    even you admitted the trees and plants fall into this category
    Yeah because it’s a kin to taking a story of myth and bringing it to reality

    Remember Trakor's Third Prophecy from DS9? In the end they were no actual vipers

    Instead of clay Anton (Probably) used something like “Bio matter”, A completely synthesized, living yet inanimate substance not too different that let’s say a “tree”, to make his golem

    Sure it is in your own definition support what do you see it or not
    No that’s what you claimed, it doesn’t mean you’re right

    Hid memories could only be Reconstitute it from a physical neurotic cell, Which is a tangible object, Now you could be right in that they do not have to replicate the same cell to complete the task but I don’t think that was clearly addressed
    Thanks for the history lesson but like I said before these opinions aren’t really pertinent

    however....
    .....the opinions Of the main characters are very pertinent ......And I would say give the clearest answer possible to this issue leaving absolutely no debate

    From the creators standpoint, Data was to be taken as completely alive as any of the rest of us since what exactly constitutes “life” can’t really be answered
    yeah, kind of feel that was the way they were trying to address the issue from within a small “box” so to speak
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2020
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  3. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    Time to use your Netflix subscription LOL

    Star Trek generations
    Deja Q
    Decent (Part 1 or 2 I don’t recall)
    Star Trek generation
     
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  4. QLRformer

    QLRformer Seeker

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    Star Trek: Brent Spiner Shares High Praise for Picard's Finale
    Star Trek: Brent Spiner Says He's Done Playing Data

    "I thought it was pretty great. It was an unbelievably beautifully written scene —Michael Chabon at his finest." Spiner said. "Both Patrick and I were both like, 'This is fantastic,' and we were both really moved by it. It was just wonderfully written, and I think the intent was to soften the blow of Nemesis and give Data a gentler exit than he had in that film."

    He continued, "I think there's something really profound about what Michael [Chabon] wrote for Data to say about those things that are fleeting, that mortality is what makes us human, and those things that mean the most to us never last forever."

    Actor Brent Spiner says he wouldn't consider playing Data again following the character's last appearance in Season 1 of Star Trek: Picard.

    Speaking with TV Guide, Spiner, who has portrayed Lieutenant Data since the first episode of the original run of Star Trek: The Next Generation, claimed he "wouldn't really entertain the idea of doing it again." His concern about continuing to play Data is that "I just don't think it would be realistic." Since Data is an android who cannot age, portraying him would indeed be an issue for any actor over the decades, even with CGI.
     
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  5. Sparky Prime

    Sparky Prime Well-Known Member

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    You are going out of your way to deliberately misconstrue the actual meaning of these definitions...

    If it had been referring to "life" in a metaphysical sense, it would have pointed that out. All the definition is saying is that it's something not alive. It is that simple. Scrolling down the page I got that definition from, it has a "kids definition" which is exactly that... "Not living". That's it. You're over-complicating these definitions to twist their meaning into something they are not, when it really is as simple as something not being alive.

    Except that's what you'd literally posted:
    Of course it isn't a complete list, I said you should look up examples. This is a definition. It isn't meant to be a "complete list" of everything that'd be considered a inanimate object, just to give you the idea of the meaning.

    And no, I've never said that trees and plants are "inanimate objects". I've said they are inanimate, when it is in an entirely different context of the word to mean "lacking consciousness or power of motion" rather than "not alive".

    Every definition I've pointed out has said "not alive". They don't support what you're saying at all. You've got out of your way to misinterpret or dismiss to support your own meaning.

    not alive, especially not in the manner of animals and humans.
    not endowed with life or spirit
    a thing that is not alive, such as a rock, a chair, a book, etc.
    not living

    No, that's what TNG very clearly established numerous times. Data is purely technological.

    The information would have to be stored on something, but the fact that would be a tangible object is entirely irrelevant. Again, she only mentions reconstituting Data's code and memories. There's no reason to believe they would need to replicate the "positronic neuron", given she never says anything to that effect, again, she only mentions reconstituting Data's code and memories.

    In your own opinion. I disagree. It shows that, within the fictional setting, it is still an open ended question.
     
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  6. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    Words and terms have more then one definition.....And they’re changing all the time

    i feel it did by making the an effort to single out “not like animals and humans”
    didnt you cover this already?

    you pointed out this error and I said I may have misspoke and I already Clarified what I was trying to say
    And the examples you listed on this leaving because trees and plants are not on that shirt list at all
    Which I already said several times it’s pretty much the context in which I am using the word
    included "not alive" as one of the definitions.....and even that one is open to interpretation

    you are just cherry picking the words to support your thinking only

    not alive, especially not in the manner of animals and humans.

    Obviously referring to a more metaphysical definition of life

    not endowed with life or spirit
    Again the metaphysical

    a thing that is not alive, such as a rock, a chair, a book, etc.

    Obviously referring to objects such as yours, but the definition of inanimate also fits things like rocks andobviously referring to objects such as yours, but the definition of inanimate also fits things like plants and trees plants and trees

    What I put in bold supports what I’m saying
    And yet they make Mention of “cloning” something about data........you claim it’s only the coding

    But even “coding” is technological, So if they can clone coding I see no reason why they cannot clone physical parts of his neural network
    It can’t be a irrelevant if it was absolutely necessary to have

    you believe there no reason to believe they would need to replicate the "positronic neuron", , I’m not so sure

    Can we leave it there?
    I think it only leaves is as “open ended” to those that just don’t know any better......like the people that have lived with one of these characters....like the crew mates if Data and the Doctor
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2020
  7. Wolfguard

    Wolfguard Your own personal Jesus.

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    Just want to chime in here: This is a terrible standard. When words lose their meaning via constant redefining and re-evolving, a language begins to lose its meaning and communication starts to collapse. I think you know exactly what he meant.
     
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  8. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for chiming in

    It’s not my standard it just happens to be the way it is.And while I don’t necessarily always like it , it is sometimes fitting

    And I don’t think this is an issue of “what he meant”, The word inanimate does have different definitions depending on the subject matter

    A book is an inanimate object, And so is a tree
    one or those things is living and the other is not......but even the tree does not have “life” as humans and animals do

    and in my mind, the possible biomater would be in the same category as a tree would be, but would be artificially created synthetic living materials that are as Inanimate as a tree untill given shape/form and programmed or “Endowed” with “life”
     
  9. Sparky Prime

    Sparky Prime Well-Known Member

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    Thank you @Wolfguard. And with this, I'm out of this conversation. It's clear to me Primeultra is just going to continue to completely misconstrue and distort everything anyway, which I'm sure he'll respond to this to deny, but there's really no point in continuing when he's just going to argue in circles like that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2020
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  10. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    inanimate
    1. lacking the qualities or features of living beings; not animate: inanimate objects.
    2. lacking any sign of life or consciousness; appearing dead
    3. lacking vitality; spiritless; dull
     
  11. BB Shockwave

    BB Shockwave Well-Known Member

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    I feel you need to take this conversation to PMs because honestly everyone checked out after the first two walls of text... and it is not even relevant to the show at this point what you two are arguing about.


    I just gotten to the end of my latest re-watch of TNG, and I have to say after watching All Good Things...
    Stewart and Frakes aged far more gracefully in real life than their fictional counterparts did in 25 years. :D 
    And I am glad that while they kept that parietal lobe based illness for Picard, it did not turn him into senile grumpy old man who keeps shouting at his friends all the time. Guess being actually old helped Stewart to play old Picard more realistically.

    Yeah it made me tear up too a bit.
    I did not think it would be "mom" since Data had a very short relationship with her, really.

    I think it helped that Brent and Patrick are good friends in real life too. And while many point out Picard was never super friendly with Data in the series, he actually did support him on a lot of occasions where he wanted to explore or expand his study of humanity. He was also the one who first put Data in command of a starship. And of course, things changed drastically in Nemesis. One tends to re-evaluate friendship if your friend sacrifices his life for you.
    As for Data, yes, it would be rather pointless to bring him back now and undercut the ending. Data always mused on how he will never understand the full human experience if he remains immortal, this was brought up a few times in the show. In a way, it reminds me of the ending of the Asimov book (and movie) the Bicentennial Man.
    However, I would not rule out Spiner returning to play Lore... The man does love to play villains.

    What random murders? Agnes murdered Bruce Maddox, yes. She and others said many, many times in the show that you seems to have conveniently forgotten that she will give herself up after returning to Earth and stand trial. I am pretty sure she will not be a member of the crew in season 2 since, well, she will be in jail.
    Seven of Nine (who is not a member of the crew) murdered a known criminal overlord and a Romulan agent who murdered a lot of xBs. She is firstly, a vigilante not affiliated with Starfleet, second, nobody witnessed these murders from the crew, so...
    Whenever Elnor murdered someone it was in self defense or to protect someone else. And those people were, again, Zhat Vash agents.
    And I cannot remember Rafi, Picard, or Rios murdering anyone.

    There has been several cases where people died and were transferred to android bodies.
    Juliana Soong
    The Schizoid Man (episode)
    In Juliana Soong's case not even Crusher noticed despite scanning her that she was an android. Nor did Troi notice.
    In neither case did they consider these NOT real people just algorithms.

    I sadly doubt we will have episodic Trek ever again. That sort of storytelling is dead nowadays except for CSI type shows. Everything is "season-long story" nowadays and it has been even before Netflix.
    It'd be fun to have Q back. I guess he would appear as an older man just to "be the same age as Picard", could be explained. I just doubt he stopped appearing to Picard after he spent so much time hassling Janeway. :) 
    I think Data was not really fully himself, just as much encoding as they could download from B4 and from that 1 neuron they found. So likely, he could not have been put into an android body anymore. But yeah, it was a nice closure for him, as he often mused about how being immortal prohibits him experiencing all aspects of humanity, including mortality.

    Q did appear as an old man in All Good Things to mock elderly Picard, using a hearing aid tube. :D 
    But if all else fails, they can use makeup and CGI. I think they did it relatively well with Spiner too, even if Data's face looked more puffy than before and his eyes more bulgey.

    Most of these reviewers likely only watched 1 episode before writing an article, basing the rest on what they read on wikipedia and seen on youtube reviews. Because to me this was nowhere as dark as people clamored it would be. Into Darkness, now that WAS a dark reboot of Trek. Even turned the Federation into SW's Empire and gave them their grey uniforms...
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
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  12. DecepticusPrime

    DecepticusPrime "Essential" Personnel

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    I figure I've got some twilight zone to watch and we gotta finish criminal minds with the wife and then I'm dropping all access.
     
  13. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    In looking back at this show several years later I myself have determined that it wasn't as good as I thought it was back in the day.
    Part of the problem in transferring a conscience after death is... in death there is no conscience. That's what death is.

    It's like the magic blood from Star Trek: Into Darkness. Dead is dead... and if it wasn't then it ain't dead. You can inject magic blood into a corpse, but do to the nature of being a corpse- like the lack of circulatory system and all- nothing will happen.

    So do we really want to look back and say "They did stupid thing back in the day, so therefore this isn't stupid."?

    So yeah: I'll say they were just algorithms / simulations.

    Now, if they did a transfer before death- like Spock- that would be something different.
     
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  14. SouthtownKid

    SouthtownKid Headmaster

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    This. A perfect copy is still a copy. It baffles me that so many people have trouble wrapping their head around this concept.
     
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  15. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    I like how that is put: simple, effective, and direct. And accurate.
     
  16. Sparky Prime

    Sparky Prime Well-Known Member

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    The Juliana android was also designed specifically to fool everyone she was human. She even had a feedback processor so that scanning equipment would detect false bio-readings from her.
     
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  17. Autoclot

    Autoclot Well-Known Member

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    This exchange reminded me of this conversation in The Big Bang Theory. Different starting point (teleportation), but the same considerations




    Any transmission of "consciousness" (however you define it) is subject to that limitation.
     
  18. Max Tower

    Max Tower Well-Known Member

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    One has to be kinda generous to consider the reborn picard to actually be Picard.

    If say it was possible to copy someone's mind (like Data's was copied into B4) then if such a copy was made and stored and the oriiginal dies, then that earlier copy was transposed into an aged up clone body - it would be a cloned recration more than the same person, I mean it would act like it's the same person, but it's sort of like a photocopy of the original document (so to speak).

    I guess the usual arbitor of such things is Dogs. If Number One still sees him as Picard, that is likely "Good enough".
     
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  19. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    So what do they do with Picard’s body?
    Proper burial?
    Attend your own funeral?
     
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  20. Deathcatg

    Deathcatg Well-Known Member

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    I'm guessing buried at that syth' s village somewhere. And yeah, I imagine Picard did attend a small service beforehand. Seriously though, I wonder if it's going to be a big secret that he has a syth body now, or will he make it public knowledge to help mend Syth/Federation relations (they said the ban was lifted, but I figure there's still some resentment and prejudice left, even in the face of evidence of the Romulan plot).