Captain Picard returns to tv...

Discussion in 'Movies and Television' started by pinoy78, Aug 4, 2018.

  1. SouthtownKid

    SouthtownKid Headmaster

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    Mine's even more simple, I ignore all the Next Gen movies already. They are all 100% complete garbage. Movie Picard is like a completely different character than tv Picard. Like they amped up his aggression levels and lobotomized his brain. Parallel universe, as far as I'm concerned. Fuck the TNG movies. Well, fuck the TOS movies, too, while we're at it. But I could understand those being bad a little easier.

    Nemesis? AWFUL.

    Insurrection? AWFUL. You maybe could have made an okay but forgettable episode out of it if the tv series was still running and you had better writing. But as a movie? GARBAGE.

    First Contact? Best of the bunch but still AWFUL. How do you irrevocably mess up the entire concept of the Borg, forever ruining it for the franchise? Easy, make First Contact.

    Generations? Man, get out of here with that mess.

    People want to complain that the Picard series continues from the history that set up the Kelvin-verse? Yeah, I feel you, but they're already referencing the garbage TNG movies, so it's not like it makes things worse than they already were. Blech.
     
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  2. Prime Red

    Prime Red Well-Known Member

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    I don't really agree with you about First Contact and the Borg, but at least First Contact didn't completely destroy them like 2009 destroyed the Romulans.
     
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  3. SouthtownKid

    SouthtownKid Headmaster

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    Yeah. The 2009 movie just killed the Romulan homeworld. First Contact destroyed the entire Borg concept. Much, much worse.
     
  4. Prime Red

    Prime Red Well-Known Member

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    Except it didn't.
     
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  5. SouthtownKid

    SouthtownKid Headmaster

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    Maybe you never understood the Borg concept, then. At least the Romulans are still Romulans.

    First Contact killed the concept of the Borg, and then Voyager nailed the coffin shut.
     
  6. Prime Red

    Prime Red Well-Known Member

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    Introducing the queen didn't change anything about the Borg. I know people like to say that it defeats the purpose of the collective, but it really doesn't. Destroying the home world of the Romulans destroys them as a major galactic power.
     
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  7. Wolfguard

    Wolfguard Your own personal Jesus.

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    I agree with some of the points both of you are making about the Borg and Romulans. Honestly I didn't like the concept of the queens, but my own head canon thinks of them as a central node with legs. With regards to Romulans? I feel they were "destroyed" in Star Trek Nemeshits by the very fact they were depicted as complete dumbasses who would allow a slave race to be armed to the point they had command of ships. And then for them to essentially surrender to, take orders from, and serve under non-Romulans??? WTF??? Totally the antithesis of their xenophobic psychology and superiority complex.

    "You can be sarcastic now, but in a few millennia, when Humans are extinct and the Romulan Empire spans the galaxy..." ~ Centurion Bachra
     
  8. SouthtownKid

    SouthtownKid Headmaster

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    People like to say it because it's true. But clearly there's no point in further discussion or trying to explain it to you.

    I think a lot of us tried to do that or something similar, but really, she has too much personality to pretend she isn't what she's called. A queen. Plus, there really shouldn't be a central hub anyway.
     
  9. Haywired

    Haywired Hakunamatatacon

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    The idea of the Borg was that it was truly alien in the way simple insect swarms aren't. We're used to hives in our world. We have them. Our hives always have central unit. The Borg was a collective with no central brain. Any drone encountered was the Borg. Any king/queen/president/central AI is wrecking this concept. Now the Borg is a generic hive mind #386124618576, plenty of those in fiction.

    I think that I'll give the Picard show a hard pass. I'm just an actual classic Star Trek fan. TOS, TNG, DS9, Voy. Can sometimes watch TOS movies and Ent. NuTrek mutation isn't for me.
     
  10. Prime Red

    Prime Red Well-Known Member

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    It's not that simple though. First Contact didn't change the way the Borg worked. The Borg were still decentralized and queen was pretty much omnipresent where ever the Borg were. She was just the mechanism of the collective. Best of Both Worlds changed the Borg more than First Contact.
     
  11. Haywired

    Haywired Hakunamatatacon

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    The thing is, the Borg should have no need for something as individual as the Queen. Piccard as Locutus still acted very much like a drone and was used as a drone to defeat the collective. Best of Both Worlds showed that the collective being one is an exploitable weakness. The Queen walking around and tempting Data, acting like an individual with comprehensible emotions, no... Just no.
     
  12. Prime Red

    Prime Red Well-Known Member

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    Really? I took that as another way of Borg adaptation. She couldn't assimilate him to get the information the usual Borg way so she had to try a different method.
     
  13. Haywired

    Haywired Hakunamatatacon

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    And you don't see a problem with an adaptation of a previously inhuman character so it starts acting very human? Sure, everything can be handwaved with one explanation or another, it's still bad writing... A previously unique concept made, frankly, average and banal.
     
  14. Prime Red

    Prime Red Well-Known Member

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    This was the first appearance of the Queen. I don't see how it's bad writing or makes the Borg less unique. Maybe if the Borg died when the Queen died you might have a point.
     
  15. Haywired

    Haywired Hakunamatatacon

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    Well, you do you, I'll still consider it banalisation of the concept. Plenty of hiveminds in the fiction are just what the Borg is since the first contact - hives with queens. It's a common trope. And that's not unique, so the Borg ceased to be anything original for good. That VOY series gimped them further... It wasn't even a big deal, the damage was already done.

    I just want my SF being a bit smarter than the average.
     
  16. Prime Red

    Prime Red Well-Known Member

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    First Contact didn't change the Borg concept though. They still work exactly the same. There's just a personification for the collective.
     
  17. Haywired

    Haywired Hakunamatatacon

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    Believe in what you want...
     
  18. Prime Red

    Prime Red Well-Known Member

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    This isn't a subjective belief here. Did the addition of the Queen in First Contact change the way the Borg worked or did it not?
     
  19. Haywired

    Haywired Hakunamatatacon

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    I think that you simply didn't get what was the concept of the Borg so you aren't missing it much. Because prior to this movie, the Borg didn't have anything like central nodes nor needed it. Everything you were shown in the show was the Borg. Equally. If you have individuals serving as central nodes... Then it means that parts of it are more Borg than the others. The entire idea how they managed to fight the Borg in Best of Both Worlds was based on this, that Locutus is just one equal part of the many.

    People complain how the Borg was further gimped in the power level, but the power level never was very crucial part of it. If the concept of the Borg gets a face and a part more important than the rest of the collective... Then it's no longer what it was before. Blow up the central brain and be done with it. It makes it much weaker than VOY made it by introducing an alien species powerful enough to punch the Borg in the face.
     
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  20. Prime Red

    Prime Red Well-Known Member

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    No, I get that. But like I keep saying, just having a Borg queen doesn't change the core of what they are. She is not a central node, she is the personification of the collective so that there is a character to interact with, instead of a disembodied voice. Killing the Queen does nothing to the Borg race in First Contact.