Discussion in 'Movies and Television' started by pinoy78, Aug 4, 2018.
So does it look like Worf may have two different swords throughout the show? A new one has been shown, but a few shots in the new trailer look like his Mek’Leth on his back.
S1 was so bad, I passed on S2.
This season, however, looks like it might be worth checking out.
Picard is still dead tho, so...
I hoped Q was going to fix that, but no.
It's almost as bad as Chris Chibnall doubling down in Doctor Who: Flux by twisting the knife and taking away any doubt that his previous retcon was true rather than unreliable narration. Then you have the Star Wars sequel trilogy...
Doing something subversive to draw attention is not good drama. Good drama is good drama.
Hmm. I am curious: for people based outside the USA, does this upload on the Paramount+ YouTube channel not show up for you?
It didn’t really need to be fixed, just better explained…..After all the ability to transfer a “soul”( so to speak ) Isn’t exactly a new thing for Star Trek
Except we know that's impossible; even based on the in-universe physics. One can conceivably only copy information and create a new person. It's a topic they try desperately not to address every time someone is transported. (There was a great scifi story which was adapted for a 90s Outer Limits episode that put this in awful clarity. TNG's Second Chances came perilously close to having to, though)
i remember that Outer Limits episode. Had Dinobot but not Dinobot. Lol
Marvel's RUNAWAYS And STAR TREK: PICARD Actress Annie Wersching Passes Away Aged 45
RIP to the Borg Queen.
i’m sorry but I don’t even know how you can say that
1)In general it’s fiction nothing is impossible
2)It’s been done before from the original series to the next generation
Yes, we have several examples (paraphrased) everything that one would feel makes a person a living being special to themselves …..Being transferred to other living bodies Or even mechanical devices
And No, it has not been described or depicted as only copying the information
In fact the exact opposite was described buy one of the most logical characters in the show
SPOCK: Sir, there is only one issue here. Is the story of life-entity transfer believable?
The Very episode shows tells us That it is a scientific possibility in fact for this fictional universe
“Remember” the Vulcans have been practicing that same ability through mind melds upon death and even once using advanced technology Kirk Spock and A female (Whose name I can’t really remember right now but saw the episode I’m sure you recognize her from TNG) showed all 3 characters having everything that they considered their personhood (souls if u like) being removed and transferred into these giant balls
And we have seen several examples of practically the same thing from TNG
I’m not sure what episode you’re talking about the outer limits and how it relates to a transporter clone but I would love to see it if you could remember the name of the episode
But I’m sorry even with that information it doesn’t change anything about what had been previously established not only in the original series but in its first spinoff
In the fictional history and physics of the Star Trek universe, It has already been established that It is by no way impossible to actully transfer a individuals living essence/
consciousness/ soul to a new body or mechanical device
I’m sorry but I think you are confusing your own issues with the stories And what the creators of the shows are doing
They just deliberately ignore that thinking, they have infinites that thinking since the original show, there’s nothing desperate about How they go about it
I just finished S1. As I was watching the season finale, I was thinking "No way are they going to kill Picard and put his consciousness into a meatbag, synth body." Sure enough...
Primeultra, the title of the episode is “Think like a Dinosaur” it’s from season 7.
Is that really what you believed?
I mean sure I had a few doubts but only because I was hoping they wouldn’t do what it seemed like they were obviously going to do from the start
It seemed to me right from the start that that was what they were aiming at I was just hoping they were going to throw a final twist at us at the end
Thank you very much I’ll try to look it up later
I just went to rewatch it myself. It’s on Roku tv btw. Anyway, the episode right before that one called Replica deals with the exact same issue just actually using cloning.
I might watch that one as well
Firstly, let me say I appreciate that you didn't see the Outer Limits episode, or read the novel I was referring to, but if you go back to my post which you clearly read some of, you'll see I had posted a link to the wikipedia entry showing the information you need.
I should also emphasize that there is nothing I could possibly say that will explain that philosophical point better than the premise of that story. Like Twilight Zone's Shadow Play, it touches upon Descartes-level thinking of what consciousness is a very dramatic way. Like Shadow Play, I not only wholeheartedly recommend viewing/reading it, I think it ought to be required reading in schools. I hope you peruse it yourself someday.
That said, I'll try to address a few points...
Obviously this is fiction. Physics will always take a backseat to drama, and Turnabout Intruder is a great example of that (despite it not being good drama). However, what you are citing here is essentially saying that Star Trek is, despite its depiction of technology, inherently shown as a supernatural universe. I'm not saying it's not, by the way. I would say that it's made effort to establish itself otherwise on just as many, if not on more, occasions. I admit there is a clear dichotomy.
Yet, they take great pains to pull back the curtain on such notions and characters previously shown as deities (Apollo, Ardra, etc). They show physics as the truth of the universe. It's a depiction of technology that is merely a few steps ahead, but based on physics which are based on the physics of our actual universe. We know in reality, as depicted most explicitly in the story I mentioned, what would, and could, actually happen if we actually achieve that technology one day. (Which likely would be more akin to what's shown in Jeff Goldblum's version of The Fly)
I'm not sure what kind of issues you're referring to, perhaps that was a slight meant to get a rise out of me, but I assure you there's nothing I'm bringing into this other than physics of the real world which scifi is usually based on. If any bias exists, then it would be the argument of transhumanists that the Descartes description of the singular "soul" concept of consciousness doesn't exist, or simply isn't important compared to the life experiences that can be preserved and shared for the supposed benefit of society as a whole. I don't think you're arguing from that position, but some do, and I wholly reject that position. Individual consciousness should be recognized and valued, as it is what the classic concept of "soul" essentially is.
You cite several examples of "everything that one would feel makes a person a living being special to themselves" and yes, I understand that being one notion of consciousness, but unless you are arguing that what we see in, say, The Schizoid Man is that establishment of a supernatural element occurring, what is depicted and understood by other characters as having happened is not necessarily true. Data acts like Ira Graves, and it is implied by Graves' dialogue that Graves believed his mind would transfer over to Data, but him behaving like Graves is not proof of consciousness transfer. The fact that he ends up as data in the computer core gives weight to data being all that was was transferred, even if some was lost during that transfer in order to save the data that was Data the person.
Likewise with katra, although the mental practices used there are not discernible to us. What we see transferred is not necessarily actual consciousness but personality and knowledge at the very least, as when the young regenerated Spock interacts with Saavik, we do not see a mindless automaton, but consciousness sans knowledge. The katra McCoy carries, Spock's personality and life experience, is reintegrated, and not shown to supplant what is already shown to exist.
You also cited that Sargon and his compatriots were implied even more to be spirit being transferred. Still, like with Graves overwriting Data, their receptacles may have imparted data which suppressed Kirk and the others.
Those are arguments from a scientific perspective, and even in-universe, at that. That the writers meant for us to question it is not apparent, and I agree that the implication was meant to be that "souls" were transferred in those scenarios. That it is at odds with in-universe physics, and most certainly our physics, is also very clear. That's why I said the writers and producers don't want to dwell too much upon it.
Transporting is a plot device, and wasn't meant to be examined from a real world perspective. Yet, we have, and from that perspective every person is killed every time they transport only to be recreated again. Not reincarnated, but recreated, and that's where language fails us in imparting the breadth of that idea. The same is true with mind transfer. In those depictions the writers sow no doubt and so no alternate dispassionate view is meant to be entertained. It was just good drama.
Good drama is what Kurtzman and his writers thought was happening in Picard and it wasn't for a number of reasons, but unless there is a supernatural element to that transfer of consciousness, data was all that could possibly have been transferred from our perspective. If anything, in a supernatural scenario, and further from a spiritual perspective, if Picard's actual consciousness - his soul - left his original body, one could argue that Picard did not transfer over into into Data's intended body along with his knowledge and personality, but crossed over into the afterlife; possibly only to watch this new consciousness with his life experiences carry on.
Chew on that one.
I didn’t notice it was a link, for some reason it didn’t show up highlighted or in a different color like some links do I just got you underlined it my apologies
Thank you and I would like to say the ideas and concepts are you referring to I’m not something I am completely unaware of just that Star Trek has always sidestep those issues and successful i might say
And I hope you don’t mind I might shorten some of what you say to just address some key elements from my point, I’m in a doctors office waiting to be seen for nothing important but I’d like to finish this particular post before they call me in
Actually I always felt, and feel that some of the Were were also trying to do, Was to depict some of their technology as being able to access things that we may moderately Call supernatural but in reality were just forms of science and technology we just dont understand yet
much in the way you explain what they did with Apollo, Ardra, etc, They show us that while people of the past didn’t understand those laws of physics it was relatively easy for people like Kirk and other modern people to see those abilities for what they really were
Another words I always found relieved that the writers of the show with sometimes delve into what some people would call supernatural but that by the time the show is taking place even some of those things have proven to be accessible through the means of science and physics
I wasn’t trying to get a rise out of you at all, I’m sorry you got that impression. The issues I was referring to are the very ones you said you hear the ones a lot of fans with a heavy inclination towards real world physics usually have with some of the technologies that Star Trek has displayed and used over the years……..Which I always felt the transporter is one of the greatest of those issues
No not at all I’m not arguing from that position I’m simply stating that the show has had their own rules for some of these things and Not really coming from a point of real-world physics or assumptions based on them
I’m sorry I gotta completely disagree with you on that
although I agree the show did not do a very good job of dealing with the ideas of real world physics and concepts of this issue it was certainly the writer and the show creators intent To tell us a story that involves and Proves That the transfer of the consciousness/soul is indeed achievable By use of certain technologies and the correct knowledge
Now if you would like to call that supernatural that’s fine but as I pointed out it is not really the only time such abilities have been shown to be possible or at least believable by the characters in the show, So I would just look at this as Graves just discovering or learning how to manipulate other sciences to achieve his goals
And similar to you I feel that the ending fact that he ends up as Computer data in the Enterprises computer core gives weight to the fact that it was actually his consciousness that was transferred to the android Data……. because the androids brain was more then Capable of not only having its own consciousness but hole storing and retaining those of another well the enterprise computers were not up to that task
After all the show went great pains to show us that the android data was not just any computer bank
I’m not exactly sure but I believe I’m going to have to disagree with you here as well
I am by no means a religious individual but I do not deny the possibility of some of their teachings
But from my point of you, what do you seem to be calling consciousness is absolutely no difference/Or at least part of an individual’s personality and knowledge…….Another words to me that consciousness is everything that makes an individual including personality and knowledge
I don’t well the two can sometimes operate separate from each other it doesn’t necessarily mean they are truly separated just that the connections have been severed
So What we see as young regenerated Spock seeming with out knowledge is more kin to his Access to such knowledge is more being blocked from him And that the connections need to be reestablished
And I’m assuming I know where you might go next the point I’m trying to make is that these type of things exist in some form of a metaphysical world not necessarily within the body of any 1 individual……Or do you still feel that’s pretty much the picture in the film
May have……The only issue I see who is that your concept pretty much rewrite the story and the explanation given by the characters in it, which is not something I’m wholeheartedly against but only when some of the things I get brought up in an episode contradict other similar situations
I see no reason to employ such personal rewriting skills for these issues
I don’t feel there’s a need to rewrite some of the aspects of these episodes to fit our modern day scientific perspective
Again it’s fiction and I’m fine with the idea That they have found a way to scientifically access and understand and explain some of the things that we made today consider supernatural
I get your thinking but in the end I find it to be faulty only because if they really didn’t wanna dwell into it they would’ve found a way to stop using some of these technologies along time ago
Again I don’t deny the real world physics about these type of things but it’s obvious that for the shows writers it wasn’t that they didn’t want to deal with it, they just decided to go with their own idea purposely.Ignoring facts or even strong scientific conclusions isn’t something you avoid by not dwelling on it for this long ……..you deliberately ignoring it
Transporting may have originated as plot device that wasn't meant to be examined , but they indeed went to the trouble of explaining it several times coming up with so much technobabble over its abilities that at this point now it The show has created some of its own rules of physics And technologies
So what we have is a transporter that was developed with the ability to transfer your cells to energy and reassemble them without killing the individual at all
Not reincarnated and no, by No means Recreated…… simply changed in someway and changed back
But I completely agree with what you say next recreated, language fails us in imparting the breadth of that idea…….The because at this point the Writer just went with the idea of true fiction …..In other words just make shit up And hope the fans like it
No I am not the biggest Kurtzman rd a n (understatement lol) Just because I don’t necessarily like what has been done and doesn’t mean I am going to hold these guys to a greater standard then I did any of the original writers of the original series TNG, DS9 etc. etc.
Just because real world physics/concepts tell us such a thing is not possible Doesn’t change the fact that this series has always told us it was in fact possible and easy…..Without involving the supernatural
Again from the original Show And beyond the idea of Being able to transfer knowledge/ consciousness/soul has been possible……Through science not through the supernatural
Not only data or text information can possibly be transferred, but Everything that would make a person feel like an individual is capable of being transferred give them the right circumstances and equipment
Again this is a world of fiction ,our perspective is relatively unimportant , it’s the perspective of the story that come into play
Believe me I certainly did “Chew on that one”
But it’s not with the Raiders shoulders so in the end that’s just more kin to fanfiction
So if you wanna write that story I’d be more than willing to read it I might even like it but it’s not something I have to contemplate when discussing this topic
Because that’s not what they did in the show, that’s not what they showed us, so another words it didn’t happen
In the end I’ll just go with what they actually did tell us and what did happen and has been happening in the series since Pretty much the one
The idea that you can transfer a person’s consciousness/soul is indeed a possibility given the right knowledge technology and circumstances within the Star Trek universe
So Picard got a new suit and didn’t die
Star Trek: Picard Season 3 Reveals the Crew of the USS Titan-A
New crew members.
Ensign Sidney LaForge (Ashlei Sharpe Chestnut) will occupy the helm. And no, the surname is no coincidence since she is the daughter of Geordi LaForge (LeVar Burton).
Lt. Matthew Arliss Mura (Joseph Lee), a Bajoran who is said to have served on the new ship for the last 3 years and "is exactly who you want at that station when you hear "give 'em everything we got!"
The ship's Science Officer is Lt. T'Veen (Stephanie Czajkowski), who is apparently one of the most highly-sought officers in Starfleet since "several Captains fought to have her on their bridge."
The ship's communications officer, Ensign Kova Rin Esmar (Jim Maley), a member of the telepathic Haliian species, as introduced in The Next Generation Season 6 episode "Aquiel". The character, who uses They/Them pronouns, graduated at the top of their class and speaks over 72 alien languages.
Separate names with a comma.