I think the key issue here is balance. Produce 10000 pieces and you can afford to price them close to retail, but produce 2000 and the price won't be that different than producing 1000 (I know Pete has talked about this in the past, something about a big part of the cost dealing with the setup of the assembly line). Thing is, Botcon exclusives usually aren't able to be sold in that high a number. Was Botcon a convention the size of a SDCC or a WonderFestival, I guess the organizers could allow for a production run of ten thousand or more, but for a "small/medium" sized convention like Botcon, that wouldn't work. Producing too many pieces would be a bad idea for them because they would probably never get rid of all pieces (with the only possible exception being last year's seekers), and then they'll have to sell them at cheaper prices (which is a strike on the image of the company... remember when Glen was forced to sell the LoC Seekers 6-pack for less than he priced those at the convention?), etc. I think they're playing it safe to have a successful company, which is completely understandable. But then you have to add to that equation how much money should FP invest for having those toys in inventory, perhaps growing their own facilities and such. Not an easy undertaking for a small company. cappeca, no offense, but what you're complaining about is not scalping. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/scalper I concede some of your points, I also concede some of the explanations both Pete and FP have given us regarding those points as well. Proof? Both Fun Publications and 3H Inc. (two separate, and competing entities) have stated in the past how costly it is to produce new tooling and convention exclusives in general. -airfox
Then Target scalped the G1 repaint of Jazz because I couldn't get it any where else but there and for the $9.99 they charged. TRU could charge $300 for their exclusives if they wanted. If no one bought them then they probably wouldn't charge that again. Take a look at the G1 reissues, they eventually got put on clearance, because they didn't sell. Many complained that $30 is too much for reissue Hoist or whatever figure. Because no one was willing to pay that, Hasbro stopped making them. I guess if no one was willing to pay $300 for Botcon figures than FP could just stop making exclusive figures. Would that be a better solution. Not everyone can get it so then no one should get it. Any time you have a limited edition figure then the intent is for it to be rare from the beginning. The box set is exclusive, so of course you can't buy it anywhere else. That's the point, if you could buy elsewhere then it wouldn't be exclusive now would it. They charge what they do because they can and people pay it. It's up to the individual to decide if it's worth it to them. You can argue that they shouldn't charge as much as they do, but when the loose set sells out in 2 weeks, it shows that they are charging the right amount. I'm sorry you can't afford them, or think the price is to high for what they are, or whatever the reason is, but suggesting that FP should make less of a profit when they are in business to make a profit doesn't seem reasonable. If you want them to stop charging what they do, then convince everyone willing to pay the asking price not to pay it and see if they drop the prices for the following years set. The thing you can't forget is these are exclusive and are a limited edition. This is why you can't buy them anywhere else and this is why they make a small number. There is no solution that will make everyone happy. If they increase the numbers in the production, then they'll stop being seen as a limited edition. If they lower the price then the sets will set out even quicker and then you're back at the same problem as before, the prices skyrocket. Allowing non-attendees to buy the set cheaper could potentially lose attendees to the convention. It's not a guarantee, but it is a risk. FP isn't in business to take risks. They want the sets to sell out and they want the figures value to maintain high so that they'll continue the demand. I'm not necessarily right in regards to any of this, no one is. This is all speculation and opinion. FP runs the business the way they feel is best for them. In the end we see this in different ways and that's cool. You made some good points and I certainly didn't mean to twist what you said in anyway. I guess I didn't quite understand what you were stating. Though there are many points we disagree on, and that's the joy of opinions.
Ya know, if you do the math, each piece is only about 60 bucks. Which is about double of how much Classics Prime was going for retail in the stores originally. Paying double is not a bad deal for an exclusive set.
You have a point here. There was a time when we'd get only two exclusives and they were sold individually for two to three times retail. The problem with that was the figures that people didn't like, didn't sell well. (Onyx Prime, Rook, etc...) FP sells us at least 10 figures a show. They make us a box set so as to sell even numbers of the bulk of them. so instead of $60 per toy, its $300. Think about it like this, how many Bugbites do you think FP would still have if they sold it by itself? Now before the counter argument comes back say they could have just produced more Seekers, they did. But after two other cons in which they had toys left over, they had no way to know for sure that the set would sell out. Small company = small risk. I bet if they had known then what is known today after the show they might have produces a few hundred more, but I don't think they could ever justify making 10,000 units of any toy unless they had the prepaid orders in hand first.
That's part of the problem IMO. FP makes so many exclusives each year, some with new heads, that they have to charge what they do to recoup their costs. Maybe if they cut back on how many they do they could afford to lower the price, at least a little. Doing as many as they do each year has always seemed like overkill to me anyway. But they are a buisness, first and foremost. And a buisness does not survive by sitting on unsold stock and refusing to markdown or clearance it out, to "preserve it's value". Imagine if online stores like BBTS or brick and mortar stores like Target used the same practice. They'd go out of buisness in no time flat. I mean, 7 years from now, in the year 2015, will FP still be sitting on those unsold 2005 toys, still afraid of pissing off people who bought the things 10 years ago? Gimme a break. Since when did we start seeing TF collecting as some kind of investment? I sure as hell don't. Never have and never will. Hell, I bought Megazarak for about $70 from BBTS the year of that Con, and today it's probably worth half that. And I don't care. And if I saw someone buy it for that much I sure as hell wouldn't scream "bloody murder" and grab the nearest pitchfork and torch. But sadly that's exactly the mentality I see elsewhere.
Yeah but it wouldn't bring down the cost of the figures. They're still making a low production number which means higher costs as someone pointed out roughly $60 each. 2 figures at $60 each would cost $120 5 figures at $60 would cost $300
Right and this being an exclusive set, 60 bucks per toy (around 300 total) is still not that bad. I understand that selling a Bugbite by itself last year might be a bit of a challenge for FP, but that's why you make it part of a 5 figure set.
I'm just reinforcing the point that the figures are in little or no way the major draw to the event. The difference in sets offered to attendees and non-attendees I think can work appeasing both sides who have issues with the idea. Again I'll say for those who are thinking it, that not everyone will be happy no matter what and that's not the point. The point is that this whole mess has created a big rift in the fandom for years now and it's grown. Nobody's suggesting anything other than seeing something done to try and minimize the rift, and we're far from that at this point. While individually speaking the increase might not seem as bad as people make it out to be, the fact that you have to buy them all even if you only want one of them changes that significantly. Yeah you could always sell the others you didn't want and probably make your money back and then some, but you still have to come up with the cash to begin with. For me, coming up with the cash isn't the hard part. Coming up with it on the spot IS. This is 2 years in a row now that we had little or no chance to so much as pass gas, never mind give the matter a second thought before they were sold out once the pics surfaced. And that's a big selling point to a lot of us. This year we didn't even get to see the whole set so there really wasn't much a chance for tons of people to really give it a thought. The interest in Transformers is off the charts right now. I think with the movies success it's gotten to a point where it's anyones guess how big it really is. The proof of it is everywhere you look, including the convention. With such a surge in interest and seemingly very little done to match, it's going to become a bigger problem. Cuz while they may plan for small increases, it doesn't appear to be nearly enough to match the flood of new fans. All that means is that if nothing is done, that these little dances are going to get bigger and uglier over time.
But what constitutes being "exclusive" enough? There is a matter here that's beyond price and all the other bull and it's about collectors. You know, all of us geeks who make this convention and club possible in the first place not just the ones with deeper pockets or have the bit of flexibility to put the extra money away. Those of us who either can't afford, or simply won't pay that high of a price especially if it's for only one or two of the figures they want from the set are the bad guys because we feel like the ones getting the shaft. And we are. Well, why shouldn't we be disappointed? The Transformer franchise is skyrocketing with no end in sight and on top of that the major collectors event at the current level it's at, I'm not too sure is prepared to handle the load. And as I said before, that's only going to cause more problems. I think they're more afraid that at lower prices, the demand might actually be too great. But as it would seem that, even at ass-raping prices, that problem may happen anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if future production numbers increased ALONG WITH the price rather than trying to produce and sell more at a lower price. See, the term "exclusive" doesn't necessarily imply that it has to be rare. It only means it's exclusively available at or through a specific store or in this case a convention. The fact that it's rare comes out of the fact that it wasn't a mass release whether they make 1000 or 20,000 it will still be an exclusive. Although technically, any exclusive will be more rare simply out of circumstance. If you buy an exclusive figure for $45 from a convention that produced a lot more of them in order to charge a bit of a lower price then chances are good that in years to come it's still going to be plenty rare and will likely do no worse than retain the price value that you paid for it if it's a good figure. I had to sell some of of the old OTFCC and Botcon figures I had awhile back and they all sold for at or above what I paid. That's all that should matter. People are getting too carried away with the idea that anyone is suggesting that they produce enough for every man, woman, and child who wants them. That's not it at all. I think the aim should be to simply to win over a majority percent. Even if it's not possible, to at least see them try would be something. Business and politics are not so different in the respect that a good public image can go a long way toward success and it's never good if a majority of the people whose support is important are against them.
It doesn't matter if they do 1 or 10 toys, the price per toy will be the same. The more toys they do, the more money they make, the show continues to grow. Here's another problem pointed out that I think a few people are having trouble with. FP is not a RETAILER. They are a promoter. They do shows and sell exclusive merchandise to attract people to their shows. Yes the have a online store and they do sell regular toys on it, but that is a side deal and not the main point of their business. They're most likely getting a good deal from Hasbro because of their liscense with them. The fact of how they run their online store should be proof enough for that. Since E-bay my friend. You can sell anything for whatever anyone is willing to pay for it. Like it or not, Transformers have been around for 24 years and a lot of toys, even the common ones, are hard to find. It makes sense that with a following like they have today, that they'd become collector items. That makes them an investment.
I personally like FP and all the work they do. One thing that I keep hearing from them is to make sure we as fans register and sign up for the convention so they know what the demand is. The problem is they produce the toys then have reg open after the fact. Just seems to be a timing issue and it may be one they can't control all the time. They could have some samples and mark it colors not final so at least we know what they are since they are making adjustments to it. They may even use fan input. Then have a cut off for ordering and then send in the production run. Also some fans procrastinate and we may still have this problem of not enough toys for everyone.
People please, let's try to get a grip here. The only rifts that are being made is by those who are unhappy with the way exclusive toys are being distributed. The people who bought the toys are happy with them. That's why they are made and sold. Those who buy them and are unhappy with them should sell them and use the money to buy something that'll make them happy. That leaves us with those who want them and can't afford them. That's where most of this bitterness is coming from. "I want this toy and I want it for retail!" How does that sound like a rational adult? These people would rather no toys got made just so it's fair for all. If that sounds harsh, it's because it's ment to be. Hasbro wouldn't have made 95% of these toys ever if it wasn't for these shows over the years. They blame scalpers or Hasbro or FP on trying to screw them personally and will argue with anyone who disagrees untill their dying breath. This is unhealthy. I get that times are hard for some of you and that if there's something you want and can't have it sucks. But bitching about something never solved anything. If you can't afford it now, save up for it and get it later. If it winds up costing you more later that's life. If you really want it, it shouldn't matter. If it does, you don't want it bad enough. I've got a huge collection. I've been working on it for 23 years. I still don't have everything I'd like to get. But I'm working on it. There are ways around missing stuff and working within a budget even if sometimes you don't have a budget. The biggest place to start is to figure out how you want to collect. Once you have that down, get what you can afford to when you can. For those who get the new stuff, that means getting it while it's new before it dissapears. Bargains can be found if you take some time to do a little research. Here's the big part to any collector who collect's anything. If you can't afford something, let it go. You can find it later. If it cost's you more well remember that you couldn't get it before when it was cheaper for whatever reason at least you could get one later. If it's cheaper later than you caught a break. Put the money you saved towards another piece that you're looking for. If a piece is hard to get later, be patient. Sooner or later, for whatever reasons, some will sell it. Exclusives make collecting fun and challenging. If you could have every toy you wanted whenever you wanted it, it would get old real quick. Where's the fun in that? The more work it takes to find something, the more it'll mean to you when you do finally get it. However, if all you really want to do is bitch and you don't care if you ever get whatever toy you're bitching about, do yourself a favor and find something that will make you happy and pursue it. You'll like your life a whole lot better. Unless you enjoy bitching, in which case it would be usless to try and discuss anything with you.
I've noticed that most people who complain about Botcon exclusives seem to be in the US; this means that can walk into a Walmart and get pretty much any TF they want off the shelf. Now I ask those people to think on this: To the rest of the world, a lot of the toys you get in the NON-exclusive lines ARE exclusives, because we don't even get them. And that's not even mentioning store exclusives as well. And we often don't have a choice but to pay scalper prices for them. SDCC has had Alternators as exclusives for the past 2 years. I've seen people on these boards put up sales threads selling half a dozen of them at horriffic markups, and yet most people seem to just say "oh well" and move on. So how come they can't seem to do that with the Botcon exclusives? I can empathise with people who get pissed because they can't afford various toys; I'm often in the same boat. However I don't think that banging on about how production runs should be bigger or exclusives shouldn't exist is the way to go at all. I don't bitch about Botcon being held in the US every year; I just suck it up, stump up the money, go, and have a great time. And while I'm over there I do my best to pick up the myriad of TFs that never even get to my country in the first place. After last Botcon we had a lot of people saying how they were angry because they couldn't get the exclusives; I wonder how many of them actually thought ahead this time and started saving after that happened, thinking "I'm not letting this happen again". The very nature and definition of exclusives is that they are hard to get. I don't understand why that's so difficult a concept to grasp. Also. If people honestly do think that the toys are expensive, or that non-attendee packages should be cheaper than attendee ones, try factoring in -travel -Hotel accommodation -food into your arguments. You'll very quickly see that non-attendee packages are actually a HELL of a lot cheaper. Yes, you're not getting the "convention experience; but you're also not getting the "convention expenses" either.
I hope you don't get me wrong Hiro Prime. I agree with what you said. I support FP, and I like their product and what they do and I usually get the exclusives. I am not going this year so I will have to go another route for the add ons. (by the way you signed my cybertronian recognition guide at my first botcon at Pasedena) I was just pointing out a different way of approaching the situation for the production run to increase business, hopefully and not have people who are on the wait list that really want one not get one . As far as the add ons, Yes even ebay for me. As a few have pointed out it comes out to the same as paying for the trip and hotel although I would have liked the experience. I am okay with that but I know others may not be.
Nothing against you personally, dude. I wasn't aiming that at you. In fact, when I was writing it, your last post wasn't even up. So it's all good. I've just about reached my saturation point with all of the whining going on about anything TF's. So I was aiming that at everyone who's just being so damn unhappy with their hobby that they feel the need to drag everyone down with them.
There is something that seems to be missing from this thread. The price you pay to get the toys covers a whole hell lot more than the cost of the toys. Some of that money goes into convention expenses. I highly doubt that Peter Cullen did Botcon 07' pro bono. There is also rental of the convention center to take into consideration. You have the cost of the Saturday night dinner, and entertainment. There is also costs involved in getting staff there to run it, cost to ship the toys there, and a whole bunch of other expenses for FP. When you take all these factors into consideration, the cost of the "toys" turns out to be a whole lot less.
Post of the thread!!! Well said. Exactly! The convention set toys do cost more because of low manufacturer runs, but there is more to it than that. Part of the cost of the convention toys is that they pay for the convention. Makes sense to me!
A big QFT for you Hiro Prime. And for you too Draven! I'm in the same boat as well. My yearly trips to Botcon are also "frenzied collecting drives" to get anything toy related I want while I'm there ... and I'm not talking just Transformers. Heck, I'm not even talking toys only. I go there and get comics, DVDs and CDs! If you do the analysis that way, of course. You can also go and say the toys are "free" because the $285 price tag pays for the convention access, dinner, guests, etc. Or, you can do your analysis from the POV of the Iacon Package, and the convention is the "freebie". -airfox
