Beast Machines dvds and revisiting old gripes...

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by Psychrome86, Mar 4, 2006.

  1. Wreckie

    Wreckie Holder of the Discomatrix

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    I'm giving my honest opinion. Just because you don't agree doesn't make me a liar. I'm not sure you quite understand the idea of character development. It means that the characters change over time.

    You seem to be under the impression I don't like the G1 cartoon. I actually adore it! But that doesn't mean I'm blind to its faults, one of which is the fact that the characters don't develop very much at all. There is an overriding tendency at the end of every episode to revert to the status quo. If you like that tendency, as many G1 cartoon fans seem to, you're not going to enjoy Beast Machines.

    Cheetor: he actually takes over leadership of the group. He usurps Primal. The change from a blind follower to a rival, to a future leader takes place over a number of episodes, on screen, in front of your eyes. If you weren't so busy getting angry with me you might have noticed it.

    Megatron: neutered? He runs the whole frigging planet!

    Rattrap: still an expert on infiltration and espionage, but doesn't get to play with guns as much. Completely unsettled by the fact he can't transform, he loses the respect of his team mates and has to fight tooth and nail to regain it. Silly robot mode though.

    I'd go on because I'm new to this particular argument, but I get the feeling that everyone else has already been here before and is heartily sick of it.

    :horse: 
     
  2. Insane Galvatron

    Insane Galvatron is not insane. Really!

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    Yes, I've seen your comics. I thought the "chip" jokes were funny. Until I watched BM again. Now everytime I'd see the big floating Megs head, I'd say to myself "Chip!"... Darn you for tainting BM for me...

    Exactly. It became Technorganic.
     
  3. rattrap007

    rattrap007 one with the Force TFW2005 Supporter

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    To me one of the only good scenes was when it was revealed that Thrust was Waspy. That was great.

    "Chicks dig brooding loner bit."
    "This mean spiderbot not go steady with Waspinator?" :lol 
     
  4. Jetfireinthesky

    Jetfireinthesky Well-Known Member

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    Good point TrooperMaximus. I often forget that with all the "Plan(e)t Cybertron" bashing. In the comics (I know it's a different reality but didn't Beast Wars have hints to the comics?) didn't Primus put his essence into a planet and over time make it a metal world? If I'm not making something up couldn't Primus have felt bad about destroying the life that used to be on that planet?
     
  5. Steeljaw

    Steeljaw Owner of TF Rebellion.com

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    How is it dishonest?
    Just because you don't like the show?


    As much as I like Beast Machines I still find it ironically amusing, considering how so many people DON'T like the show, that it's usually abreviated "BM" :D 
     
  6. Frognal

    Frognal Prodigal Son Returned

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    A few reasons why I didn't like it:

    1. The aesthetics of BM bugs the hell out of me.
    2. Not a fan of any of the character changes.
    3. The story didn't interest me.
    4. The whole idea of technorganics.
     
  7. Switch625

    Switch625 "Up, up, and away!"

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    Some spoilers follow, so beware.

    I watched this dvd set from start to finish over the course of the last week. After having not seen it in years, I was able to approach it with a clean slate. Well, sort of. I had my concerns going back in.

    The first thing I realized was just how much was ripped directly from The Matrix Trilogy. Techno dance music? Check. Bullet time? Check. Kung fu action? Check. Zen/Buddhism religion angle? Check. And the whole "clear your mind and transform" bit is something Morpheus could have said. Even the fate of Optimus and Megatron came straight out of The Matrix Revolutions, which is weird since that episode of BM predates that film by 3 years.

    If you notice, there are no real handguns. If I remember right, there was some edict from either Hasbro or Fox where they didn't want their toys and characters to have real guns. It was probably more fall out from what happened at Columbine.

    What I didn't like: obviously the major character changes. Rhinox turns evil with little real explaination and then he's dead just as soon as he shows up? Lame. Rattrap is a little punk throughout most of the series and after awhile I was sick of his constant complaining. The character designs, while interesting, lacked that Transformer look that makes them Transformers. Speaking of transforming, the heroes don't transform, they morph. Lame. The animation was pretty good, but the blacks were a bit oversaturated and I hate anime speed lines. To me, that's just lazy animation. I was also unimpressed with the look of Cybertron. It just seemed very plain to me. I also don't like Cybertron's newly discovered organic core. You mean after all these millions of years, this is just now becoming an issue?

    What I did like was that the series is one long episode. There are hardly any true stand alone episodes like Beast Wars had. It really did play out like a novel, as mentioned in one of the interviews. I liked what happened to Megatron - at the beginning. The whole "infected by a beast mode" thing got monotonous after awhile and his connection to Noble/Savage didn't make any sense at all. Optimus and Cheetor's character arcs were both very good. Black Arachnia was also very interesting, until Silverbolt's return and then there was nothing left for her to do. The less said about Nightscream the better.

    Overall, I was able to put all of the negative stuff aside and I really enjoyed the series for what it was. I understand what they were trying to do and while it didn't all work, I appreciate the fact that they tried something different. Except for Mainframe, the people responsible for Beast Machines had nothing to do with Beast Wars and they probably knew they couldn't top it. With a couple of minor changes here and there, they might have succeeded. Just my $.02.
     
  8. Shin-Gouki

    Shin-Gouki Rebuilding Veteran

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    This is the only series I truely wanted Megatron to win! The Maximals, and Optimus as a whole SUCKED, Botanica should have never exsisted, and FUCK Cybertron as a salad!
     
  9. Nightrain

    Nightrain Senior Villain

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    With that said...

    The faults of G1 is no defense of any other series. That's what makes you dishonest.

    And yet, he was still the same old under-developed Cheetor, only given a little larger role.

    I seem to recall he had much bigger aspirations before. So yes, very neutered.
     
  10. Draven

    Draven Banned

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    Le sigh. I was wondering how long it would be before this happened.
    Some people loved BM, some people hated it. Howsabout everyone calm down, stop insulting people and throwing names around, and deal with it.
     
  11. Vangelus

    Vangelus Long Live the New Flesh Moderator Content Contributor

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    Yowch, I thought people were done getting flippant at each other over this series about 4-or-so years ago. o_O  Nobody's been goofy enough to buy the DVDs for the sake of burning the box and chewing on the discs or something, have they?

    Anyway, I'll always like how utterly hopeless the series felt. Almost like, "you -tied- Megatron to the outside of your ship. Now he's eaten every Cybertronian's soul. Good job, crew!"

    Lotsa stuff I found forgettable (sudden inclusion of characters like Botanica (admittably a cool design) and Nightscream for the sake of saying "Heeeey, organic!"), though I later found myself appreciating that the writers were trying to work with what they could. I do remember that the whole "transformation in a spiritual way" thing wasn't even their idea, but one of the guidelines they were handed at the start.

    That said, there was lots of stuff I enjoyed, too. Jetstorm was marvelous (and sooo got screwed over for the sake of the Thrust-is-Waspy joke), and the facial animations rooocked. Megatron got some great speeches, too.

    I found the second season to be a lot tighter than the first, myself. Once they'd gone through a season of kinda haphazardly moving through the plot, it looked to me like the writers really did try to improve their work. And I think they did alright. Still like BW more, but I don't mind BM as its own stand-alone thing.
     
  12. Dr Kain

    Dr Kain Well-Known Member

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    I finally got my DVD yesterday and watched the first season in one sitting so far. Man I love this series, and the episode The Weak Component. It is one of the best written TF episodes ever. The dialog is just classic, and shows how low Rattrap can go when he feels alone. There is so much great stuff in here that I feel like watching it over again. Love Rhinox's decent into madness as the temptation to evil made him love it. Thrust turning out to be Waspinator and his whole dialog. The soundtrack. Oh my god the soundtrack just down right rules!! Especially the Megatron theme. Just can't get enough of the Industrial music. The animation is even better than I remember (it also reminds me of a few scenes from BWS3, like the one where Megatron was walking towards Primal after tossing him aside in the Nemesis).

    Sure, it has a religiouis aspect, but that is what makes it different from the other two series.
     
  13. Omik

    Omik *blink blink*

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    It's the deep space nine of transformers.

    I fell in love with BM the first time I saw it. It was dark, violent, and extremely cool. I cheered for the bad guys throughout the whole series.

    Megatron was by far the best thing in the series. He was like a cross between hitler and starscream, but with a giant freakin' head. Noble was really interesting, and I loved how they integrated him into the plot. :horse: 
     
  14. Liokaiser

    Liokaiser Moderator

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    Great thread. I ordered BM last night at deepdiscountdvd, I can't wait to see this series for myself. I for one only saw a few episodes.
     
  15. Nefud

    Nefud Well-Known Member

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    Look, I'm not trying to make this worse exactly but I do think it's fair to discuss the quality of this series in a thread which...y'know....sets out to do that.

    Analogy time: Let's pretend we're discussing a bridge. A structural engineer comes in and says, "this thing is made out of bad materials, it was never made to handle the load it'll be put under, and it'll fall down in less than a month. This is a BAD BRIDGE." But 100 chefs say, "No, we like the bridge! The bridge is good!" In that scenario, you can't chalk it up to "well some people have opinions about things and blah blah blah." The engineer is right, and the chefs are wrong.

    Back to reality: I have a degree in English lit. Beast Machines is horrible. Poorly plotted, sappy dialogue, and going through the motions at every step. It's like having sex with a kevlar condom on.

    In case you don't see the connection, I'm *qualified* to judge this show. If you want me to back up that opinion I surely will, but it's ridiculous to proclaim that all opinions are equal just because they are opinions.
     
  16. Draven

    Draven Banned

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    :lol 
    Congratulations on writing the most arrogant thing I've read since the demise of the N&P forum.
    Qualified? You're talking about a cartoon, not Shakespeare.
     
  17. soundwaveCA

    soundwaveCA Veteran

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    Huh I actually thought the first season was a bit tighter then the second. Mostly because I felt the second season took sooooo long to really get going. I found the first 4-5+ episodes were really sluggish and forgettable and could have really been put to much better use. Its really only when Obsidian, and Strika came in I found the second season really picked up.
     
  18. Nefud

    Nefud Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad you seem to understand that "arrogant" doesn't mean "wrong."

    Last time I checked, the only thing that is Shakespeare.....is Shakespeare. What's your point? Cartoons as well as movies, books, pamphlets, instruction manuals, and menus can be well-written and still not be "Shakespeare."
     
  19. Draven

    Draven Banned

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    Just as "I have a degree" doesn't mean "right". The opinion of someone with no degree in anything is no less valid than yours.
    Sigh. For someone with a supposed degree, you're sadly lacking in the identification of analogies.
     
  20. Nefud

    Nefud Well-Known Member

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    Then why have experts in anything ever? Why do we have colleges? I’m just as qualified to run NASA or build a car or perform brain surgery as any of those so-called “experts.” Hey everyone, let’s join the hippie freak-out fun-time festival at Draven’s house!

    You know what? You're right on this. I was being pointlessly snippy. But my point stands. Just because something is a cartoon doesn’t give it a free pass. There’s good and bad art in any medium. Beast Machines was extraordinarily bad for a ½ hour cartoon show just as (one of your obvious favorites) Blackadder was extraordinarily good for a ½ hour sitcom. Someone may love Beast Machines in spite of its flaws or hate Blackadder in spite of its excellent writing, but there’s still a basic level of quality which can be judged by someone with training and understanding of what makes a good story.