Autobots losing their moral compass?

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by Mako Crab, Aug 24, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. boxerperson

    boxerperson a ringer...

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2003
    Posts:
    666
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Likes:
    +3
    Man it always pisses me off when I see this type of thinking used. Do you have any idea how many JAPANESE lives were saved by using the atomic bombs? The only other means of waging war on their home island that we had available involved invasion and mass fire bombing. We killed several times more japanese citizens using those techniques than we did with the atomic bombs. If we had mounted a full scale invasion of the island and major cities, ten times the number of civilians would have been killed. The atomic bombs were a display, required to bring about a quick end to the conflict, and they were used precisely because we really did not want to go in and bomb the crap out of tokyo, with it's millions of civilians and houses made of paper and wood.

    It was the only way to quickly end the war and it saved hundreds of thousands of lives....ours AND theirs. Nothing else could have gotten their emperor to concede defeat. The culture was honor based, fight to the death, and the politicians in Japan had the citizens and soldiers convinced we were cannibals and ate our prisoners of war.

    The Atomic bombs weren't morally wrong. They were mercy compared with the alternative, and done primarly because it saved lives, not because it ended so many.

    The US knee-jerk reaction to Pearl Harbor, with the internment of legal American citizens who happened to be Japenese, or the systematic genocide and destruction of Native American cultures and people are examples of really messed up decisions that the United States has made.
     
  2. Moriarty

    Moriarty = ♀

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2010
    Posts:
    1,151
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    137
    Likes:
    +5
    My main problems with Hiroshima and Nagasaki are as follows:
    1) There are people still suffering and dying from the fallout.
    2) The American military weren't 100% sure what exactly the atom bombs were going to do. Some even thought there was a slim chance they could destroy the world - and yet they went ahead anyway. Reckless and stupid.
    3) They could have aimed for military targets. They didn't. They deliberately killed and maimed a load of civilians - old men, women and children - and then tried to make themselves out as heroes for doing so. Now, if another country did that to America in order to end the war, that other country (whoever it was) would be made out to be monsters of the lowest moral fibre. But because it was an "Allied"/Western country, that makes it 100% okay.

    However...

    ...this annoys me far more than Hiroshima and Nagasaki ever could. HAY YOU GUYS WE WANT THIS COUNTRY SO WE'RE GOING TO KILL YOU ALL THEN GLOSS IT OVER BY GIVING YOU TAX-FREE CASINOS OKAY? OKAY GOOD. Lovely.

    I'm not anti-American. I'm just anti-the-West-is-always-right-okay.
     
  3. Autovolt 127

    Autovolt 127 Get In The Titan, Prime!

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2006
    Posts:
    83,057
    News Credits:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    412
    Likes:
    +1,951
    I'll still to this day defend the descision to end the war of the pacific with the atomic bomb. It took less resources and less men to go and take Japan by storm, The Tojoh's are like Terminators, They do not stop, They will never give up until they win. American had this option, I know people are like now how could the Americans do this. Go back 65 years ago and you'll see they didn't have much else options. They would of fought for a negotation but that's not what the Japanese Imperial Shinto culture was like, They believed in "Samurai Code". You know it's could of been worse the Japanese had not surrendered after Nagasaki and they bombed the entire country obliteratiing Millions and Million. I think they got it easier but they chose to surrendered.




    I think Harvey Dent in the Dark Knight said it best.


    "It's you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villian."


    ^that should sum up all morality.
     
  4. Evil Porkchop

    Evil Porkchop Pork, the evil white meat

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2003
    Posts:
    1,162
    Trophy Points:
    227
    Likes:
    +4
    Well actually they sort of did as the US had 3 bombs, 1 of which was tested the other 2 were dropped on Japan.


    The US did aim for military targets. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were major centers for the Japanese Military Industry, the only reason the US didn't bomb Tokyo was due to it having more historical and cultural significance. Civilians die in war, it's horrible, unavoidable consequence. But carpet bombing Japan then invading them would have produced far more casualties for both sides.
     
  5. Shockscream

    Shockscream Chairman of Nerd Day

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2009
    Posts:
    2,818
    News Credits:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    171
    Likes:
    +7
    “Peace through tyranny” is no peace at all. Enforced tranquillity can never last and is never really peace. There is always going to be a seething underbelly of discontent towards the tyrants that will, inevitably, lead to another war somewhere down the line.

    Fair point. Each of the series are products of their times and morality, like almost everything else, is a slave to the current socio-political context.

    You’re right, it isn’t credible. The war has clearly changed the Autobots and their way of thinking. Above, Black Oracle talks about the events of “Last Stand of the Wreckers”. This, and most of the other works written by Nick Roche are perfect examples of how morality has fallen by the wayside in a simple effort to get the job done. “Spotlight: Kup” features enormous sacrifices authorised by Springer to retrieve his mentor Kup because he is a symbol of and for the Autobot’s struggle.

    Ultimately, however, a war takes at least two competing sides in order to be a war. The Autobots fight, and so the war perpetuates – even though they have a more pacifist philosophy of peace and freedom than their enemies, they are still guilty of continuing the conflict.

    I for one do not believe that the deployment of the atomic bombs was the wrong move in a strategic sense. You're right to point out that many thousands more would have died on both sides as the result of a direct invasion. The Japanese were more than prepared to fight to the last man and make an American victory taste as bitter as any defeat. However, the use of such terrifying and massively destructive weapons can never be morally right. The horror of the alternative does not mitigate that of the solution that was ultimately used. Was it necessary? I would say yes. And I refer us all to this:

    The greater good is served, but it is costly. Lives and morality are lost. You ebb away at principles until you cannot remember for what it is that you were originally fighting and dying for.

    The needs of the many are always going to outweigh the needs of the few. However, this does not mean that those few should be forgotten. The sacrifices of morality do not appear to sit all that easily with the Autobots in at least some of the modern continuities. IDW has Prime regretting his stance on “acceptable losses” in AHM and returning to Earth to eliminate the threat of Megatron because he believes himself guilty of creating the situation in which Megatron was allowed to rampage over the planet (by virtue of the Autobot withdrawal to combat the threat of the Dead Universe). ROTF, for all Prime’s “badassery”, has him agreeing to leave Earth if we ask him to because he cannot absolutely rule out the notion that the Decepticons are only there because the Autobots are.

    Their morality is never completely lost. But it is tucked to one side for a while when the needs of the moment demand it. This is the way of all military organisations. As I said in my first post in this thread, being completely true to one’s morals one hundred per cent of the time does not make for an effective army.
     
  6. Shockscream

    Shockscream Chairman of Nerd Day

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2009
    Posts:
    2,818
    News Credits:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    171
    Likes:
    +7
    A quote from The West Wing has just come to me. During a discussion about war crimes and the International War Crimes Tribunal, an American general points out something that is worthy of thought:

    "All wars are crimes"

    In a war, there will always be death and destruction that is justified by people saying "It was war". Under normal circumstances, the after-effects of war -- the destruction to people and property, the economic considerations -- would not be tolerated. Cicero once said "Inter arma enim silent leges" (In time of war, the laws fall silent). In war-time, what is right often falls by the wayside, whether we are talking about what is legally right or what is morally so.
     
  7. Batman

    Batman The Dark Knight TFW2005 Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Posts:
    12,210
    News Credits:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    342
    Likes:
    +715
    Ebay:
    :lol 
     
  8. Omnius

    Omnius Guest

    Joined:
    May 14, 2006
    Posts:
    12,031
    News Credits:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    312
    Likes:
    +322
    You raise some good points there, I think with G1 eps it depended on the writer - didn't one of the writers say (I think it was last year) that they weren't too fussed about the quality of what they were coming out with, as long as they got paid?

    As for the tech specs and original bios, they were personally one of my favourite aspects of G1 fiction - you got a lot about a character, even subtle personality traits - out of just a few sentences. That was one area where it's clear a lot of thought went into things as the original line-up had a varied range of personalities. Even the Autobots were a motley bunch given Mirage, Gears and others.
     
  9. Joe Moore

    Joe Moore Is Not Jim... Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2003
    Posts:
    14,473
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    262
    Likes:
    +13
    Ebay:
    Twitter:
    I guess it was only a matter of time until politics or religion came into this thread. Politics won the race, but the thread lost the war.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.