Counting both halves it's $80 vs $270.

 

Ah man, I forgot to include Sunstreaker in my earlier list. Tried so hard to remember all the potential matchups but one still slipped past.


Well that's another where I prefer the official, so that makes 8 out of 16. A 50% ratio (well, maybe 49.5 since I have to take half a point off for MP-27/30 needing a 3rd party upgrade kit...but I guess then I can add half a point back on since TE-01 needs the official MP-10 trailer...so I guess it balances back out).

 

My bad, my bad. I admittedly never gave the figure more than a passing glance when it was issued, because I hated both the original G1 toy and cartoon character when I was a kid. I’m sure I saw the bird and thought it was the whole figure. Odd that they separated the two units.

So, it is indeed $80 vs $245 ($125 + $120), or roughly 3:1. Neither would be worth $20 to me, but for someone who enjoys the character, the WFC version is probably the better value.

 

MP Megatron is superior to all the 3P options. Yes, I owned them all at some point (except the horrible triple-changing "Infiltration era style" one)
I actually use Siege Jetfire in my S1 Autobot display instead of Phoenix... and yes, I do have Phoenix. But I don't love the liberties they've taken with his design (he's too heroic looking) and he's too big. Since I'm a "display" kind of guy, if I swap a figure out of my main display (as I did with Phoenix), that kind of by definition means I've made a decision about what's better.
MP Grapple is better than any of the 3P options. (I actually like MMC's Inferno better than the MP, weirdly... I think the MP just looks too undetailed for my liking, whereas Grapple's color breakup works better for me)
MP Sunstreaker is WAY better than BC Sunsurge and Omnigonix Spinout.
Thrilling 30 Springer is better than FP Springer.
The Combiner Wars era Topspin and Twin Twist are DEFINITELY better than the 3P versions, and I liked those.
MP Hound is better than FT's and MT's (I had both, I sold MT's and moved FT's to a secondary shelf)... well, let me clarify, the KO is better because it doesn't fall to pieces at random.
MP Bumblebee (original version) is better than ToyWorld Bii, but like FT Hound I liked it enough to keep and move to a secondary collection.
MP 44 is arguably better than the 3rd party versions. If you care about the trailer/roller/etc. it's definitely better, since the 3P Primes don't have them.
MP22 is definitely better than Citizen Stack, although the KO improved its design.
Hasbro's Sky Lynx is fucking AWESOME and IMO murdered MMC's.
Kingdom Galvatron is better than UT Mania King (who will now be my "alternate Universe Galvatron"... if they end up making an Armada Megatron, they'll be fighting like the old DW comics)
For that matter, Studio Series Hot Rod might be better than ANY other Hot Rod toy at any scale. IMO it's better than all the 3P IDW versions, FT's version, and even better than Takara's MP version! If Wei Jiang was still around and upscaled it to MP size, maybe with a couple minor color fixes (like getting rid of the yellow knee joints), I would absolutely swap it out for FT's, which looks decent as a robot (in the right pose) but honestly isn't all that great.


Some Hasbro stuff is so good that 3P's don't even bother putting out competing figures. Like, I don't think MMC is going to do an IDW Springer or IDW Ultra Magnus... Hasbro knocked both of those fuckers completely out the park and they're already appropriately sized to work with the existing MMC IDW figures.

 

The mold itself is fantastic, though I prefer it as Cordon or Spinout. I’m still waiting for them to issue a yellow version with the toy-style head, dark blacks, and shin detail.

 

Surprisingly I'd say there's not as much on the CHUG side that's out and out better. I'd argue UW Computron and Quantron hold themselves good in different ways. TR Topspin and Twin Twist absolutely slew the older versions though, despite how good those were.

But then there's FP's poor, poor Springer. Their Broadside is still a neat thing (although I never transform the blighter) but Hasbro sort of looked at Defender and said "Then perish" with the two Springers they came out with, huh?

 

Damn, totally forgot that there were actually multiple 3P versions of the Fuso guys. Show's how un-memorable they were for me!!

Apart from the Lambo bros, I agree with pretty much all of this, with the caveat of Arcee - I don't think any of them is perfect, but FT is easily the closest to "right" because of the fantastic job they did compressing an entire alt mode into those shoulder pauldrons. Rouge is a little too lanky for me but it's still hands down the best we have so far.

See, I agree that the MP is a better Sunstreaker, but the whole "lets cram an entirely new, non-canonical, stock lambo alt mode" thing did that figure a MAJOR disservice. The worst thing about MP Sunstreaker is the MASSIVE backpack he's lugging around, and a large part of that is because Takara had to cram a normal alt mode into the figure, just to get the "licenced car mode" sticker on the box. Sunny was NEVER a normal lambo, he was ALWAYS a suped-up custom-job. I for one see zero benefits in a "licensed" sticker, especially when it compromises bot mode. The fact that VW were happy to slap their badge on the new Bumblebee's chibi alt mode goes to show how silly that compromise was for Sunny. Almost as silly as talking about ANY Lamborghini in terms of "basic", "stock" or "standard"   - for many who grew up in the 80's it's one of those aspirational "dream cars", even in a "standard configuration". LOL

Badcube wins Sideswipe solely because of the chest collapsing gimmick - if only they could have taken it further and collapsed the chest even more. But both versions of Sideswipe are far more "toy" than "toon". Still waiting for someone to give us a proper slim torso'd Sideswipe (FT? please?). The plus version of the MP Red LAert just does a better job for me because of the thick glossy paint, that toonish grey, and while the doors on the forearms of BC are accurate, the big blue windows underneath detract from that too much, But it's definitely a close one that can go either way.
MP Inferno wins for me because that was at the height of their Toon accurate renaissance, and it really captured the cartoon design for me. Funnily enough, I initially hated the MP (same with MP Sunstreaker) but once I grew accustomed to them and realised how much I personally actually liked the insane toon accuracy, my opinion changed. For a long time I was hanging out for XTB's Inferno because of the hyper-detailed and realistic alt mode, but with where I (and my collection) are at today, the MP wins.
It's funny, this exercise really highlights how for me, Takara had a short "glory-period" right in the middle of their run. The initial stuff (what many call the Hasui style) was great at the time but in hindsight, many of the moulds don't hold up over time, and the move towards toon accuracy really won me over. Unfortunately, they have started to stray from this and veer way from "toon accuracy" and more and more into "exact character-model sheet" territory, becoming TOO hyper-focused on matching that one, static representation and often missing the essence of the characters. Worse, because they are so laser focussed on that one look and pose, they have become even lazier and are happy just cramming more and more unsightly kibble on the back of their bots, with the whole "out-of-sight/out-of-mind" excuse. I think that's one reason I'm so impressed with MP Hound - it does so much, looks so great and it's still really clean. (again, plastic quality is a whole other ball-game - that's what KO's are for),
But sadly, I think the glory days for Takara are behind them and more and more they are missing the mark for me. The terrible broken sculpt and massive gaps all over their new Prime (for the sake of articulation over sculpt), the lack of waist swivel and massive backpack on Starscream (because apparently sculpt is now more important than articulation for that character), the mind-boggling MESS that is Bumblebee from the rear, the weird saggy chest and pointy face of Arcee (because they apparently want to homage a 10-year-old toy design instead of the 35-year-old original design, but ONLY with that one figure)... and I have no idea what the hell is going on with Skids... I feel like they dropped his design down the back of the fridge a decade ago and someone just found it, dusted it off and went "eh, that'll do." I really love those "heigh-day" figures from Ironhide through to BW Megatron (though I don't really do Beast War's) but after that, they fell in a heap, with the only high-point really being Hound - and considering how much of a QC disaster that bot is, it's terrifying that he's the high point.

 

I just did this exact comparison...

 

My main problem with official products vs 3P options is that HasTak aren't doing the figures I want to collect. They are getting some and more variety with the Selects series but most of those aren't available to me geographically and aren't in line with a mostly MP collection. I don't want a collection that looks identical to every other collector's collection because "X company has the best version of Y character", I want something weird and different. Give me Megatron turning into a sheath bomber, Starscream becoming a giant eagle, toy version Hound, and all the Predators and Turbomasters, not 5 versions Optimus in slightly different packing

 

This is one of those threads that I think requires each comment to begin with the author's aesthetic preference-- because that determines almost everything.

I agree with you that the MP line has fallen out of its "glory period", but for me that period was with the Hasui hybrid designs. Hound is a good example for contrast. I wouldn't want MP-47 if it were made of aircraft-grade aluminum. In fact, I own a second-hand copy of MP-47 that has zero QC issues. I've transformed it multiple times and posed the hell out of it trying to customize it into something I might enjoy, but I just hate the design. It's one of those figures that is based on the directive of hiding anything that doesn't conform to the Sunbow animation model. I realize that's exactly what many people want, but I grew up loving the toys, not the cartoon (though I enjoyed watching S1 and S2). I like seeing elements of the alt mode. I like surface detail. My Hound is MT Gundog 2Y, because it captures my ideal view of the character (which centers strongly on the G1 toy that I loved as a kid). It's one of my favorite figures, period, and my collection isn't small. But there is my own personal bias showing-- I can't really be objective, either.

I think there are a few collectors out there that simply look for the "best figure" and not necessarily the "best representation of the character", and are thereby able to largely ignore aesthetic-- or at least they're not as influenced by their preferences for one or the other. They tend to have somewhat incongruous collections, but generally don't have to make excuses for flaws in design. My collection is largely what I consider "hybrid" (e.g. MP-10, the MP Datsuns and Lambos, MMC's Sphinx and Girder, XTB's Herald, Zeta's Neptune) but does include some stylized figures like MT's version of Blades and First Aid and the OSKO versions of GT's Gravity Builder, as well as a couple of toony ones like FT Hunk (for lack of better options). My incomplete set of Stunticons is a mixture of XTB and the IDW-influenced TransformMission figures.

Again, I think most people's ability to objectively rate these figures is seriously limited by their aesthetic preferences, and responses to threads like this are going to be more reflective of those preferences than they are on what makes for a legitimately better toy.

 

I think I'm mostly checked out of official MP figures because they just look... goofy to me. I feel 3P has a lot of love put into them and those designers are aiming to appease both cartoon accurate and modernization fans.

The mainline however (Esp WFC trilogy) I'm loving because it harkens back to that G1 look but more "mature" and a very easy price point. Plus fun to flip between modes.

 

100% agree that this thread is completely about people's personal preferences. Funnily enough, mine are almost diametrically opposed to yours. I enjoyed the Hasui bots at the time because they were sophisticated and ingenious and did so much more than previous iterations of the characters had ever managed, but what I didn't pick up in myself was that they weren't what I was actually craving. It wasn't till I saw the toon accuracy trend, and MP-36 Megatron in particular, that it really clicked for me that it was the toon look that hit the spot for me.
In hindsight, it's obvious of course.
I loved the cartoons as a kid and have watched them almost continually in one form or another since I first saw them. I love sharing them with my own kids.
The original G1 Toys? I owned Perceptor (my parents were kinda weird and somehow thought he was a cool toy for a ten-year-old! ) and I had a used copy of Wheelkack that one of my friends gave me. That's it. I never owned any of the other toys, and have zero connection to them. They spark absolutely no nostalgia for me. I picked up a KO copy of Optimus a year or so ago and, while my 4-year-old loves it because it's almost unbreakable, it just looks awful to me.
And that's why I love that "middle-period" of Takara - they were hammering home that cartoon aesthetic but hadn't yet gotten hung up on the "crotch-thrusting character model" look. I guess I'm lucky though, because both XTB and FansToys, as well as occasional releases from TE or other companies, seem to be firmly in that same target zone. I feel sorry for the Hasui and toy lovers because there's not that much coming out for them these days. My hey-day with official stuff was short, but 3P is carrrying the torch for me. And don't get me started on 3P Legends stuff! I ended up starting an entirely new collection just to get the NewAge and Magic Square stuff. So good!!

Also, I love these kinds of discussions, because it revolves completely around the question "what do YOU think is cool?" and can mostly avoid the rampant "I'm right and you're wrong" bickering that we often fall into in other threads. I like hearing others' opinions on this stuff, hearing why they feel that way, and thinking "huh... I can understand that. I might not feel the same, but I get where they're coming from."

 

They just tried to mimic MP10, MP Prowl or MP Sideswipe proportions. I keep Sunsurge and FT Willys because they fit my display of old MPs better, though I see Takara's designs are superior, but too cartoony for me.

I keep Apollyon too, MP Megs destroys the others, but it matches MP44, not MP10. I wish they had created a MP+ line instead of change the style in the middle of the line, so we could have one official Cliffjumper to go with MP21 and the new one to go with MP45.

Which Hasbro IDW Fortress Maximus? MMC are doing it. Do you mean Ultra Magnus?

 

I feel like the most stand-out non-MP Has/Tak stuff is from a few years ago:

• T30 Springer has yet to be topped
• Combiner Wars Ultra Magnus still holds up
• T30 Brainstorm even with his floppy wrists is great.

Also, the BW MPs are gonna be super hard to top, unless someone gets on doing a Rhinox or Rattrap.

 

yeah i mean there are a lot of things i like about sunsurge bettter than sunstreaker but sunstreaker is clearly the overall better figure. closer than most hastak fans would admit IMO

hastak skylynx did murder mmc's IMO expecially given teh price.

 

Yep I meant Ultra Magnus.

 

I'm going to talk purely MP vs 3PMP here (with one exception) rather than comparing with chug, etc:

MP Sunstreaker is not only better than Badcube...whatever it's called, but a really fantastic toy in its own right. 3P will have to go a long way to outdo this IMO.

MP Ratchet and Ironhide are probably the best options for those characters at the moment, but I could easily imagine a better 3P version coming along at some point.

MP-09 Rodimus is still the best MP option for Hot Rod / Rodimus, despite issues. I really wish a 3P company would do better, though. I'm sure it must be possible!

MP-13 Soundwave is still great, but I expect (and hope) not-FansToys offering is going to change that soon.

And then MP-36 is the best MP Megatron offering available....buuuuuut I think Magic Square's legends scale offering is a better toy both in looks and engineering, despite being less than half the size. (MP-36 is still great, though: it just looks pretty bad from the back, and the alt mode is very panel line-y)

 

I agree with this (that our evaluation of this will be primarily subjective) but I think there are objective elements of toy design that we are discussing too. Like, it's definitely subjective whether BadCube's Sideswipe and Red Alert are better than Takara's, but that's partially because they're all well-built toys that are highly effective at capturing the likenesses in both modes. MP-9 is CLEARLY the most ACCURATE Rodimus available but whether you consider it 'better' than DX9 Carry is hugely subjective. Likewise, whether MP-44 is actually better than TE-01 or Magic Square Light of Freedom (or even MP-10, or ToyWorld Primorion!) largely comes down to personal preference and how important articulation and accessories are to you. MT Gundog's transformation is just as innovative and enjoyable as the official and it captures the toy likeness just as well as the official captured the toon likeness so that's purely a matter of preference (I do think the official is objectively better than FT's though). I think FT's Hot Rod and Arcee are better than the official, but that's because I'm a "robot mode display" guy... if you care about transformation and alt mode, the official versions are better. And when I say Hasbro Jetfire "wins," it's because it works better with my Toon display which is my primary display, not because it's a better toy in every way than Sphinx.

Like you, I value the Hasui-era "hybrid" designs and toyetic designs. I also really enjoyed MT Gundog (even though I sold it... I couldn't justify having THREE hounds and I couldn't bring myself to move the FT version), and I maintain a secondary "toy" MP collection with Sphinx, the Voodoo robots van-bots, Toyworld Bii, BadCube Brawny and Sunsurge, MP-10, etc.

But I also think some of these things ARE objective. Like, MP Megatron just IS better than any of the other options (AND has the best accessories too). Hasbro Skylynx just IS better than MMC's. Hasbro Ultra Magnus, for all its faults, just IS better than any existing option (really, at any non-Legends scale). I have MT Grapple boxed up for sale, and still have MMC Inferno in my main display, but Takara Grapple/Inferno just IS a better toy... And the official Sunstreaker just IS better than Sunsurge (which is definitely still a great toy), notwithstanding the backpack and the unnecessary (but cool) "standard" Lambo alt mode.

(Incidentally, I'm pretty sure that "it has to be able to turn into a real Lamborghini" was a term of the license dictated by the automaker, and Takara just said "okay, we can do that" even though they would have preferred not to. My guess is, Volkswagen -- a manufacturer of family vehicles, of which the Beetle was a low end car that was in continuous production for sixty-five years -- probably isn't as hung up on aesthetics as a boutique, super-high-end, exclusive sports car manufacturer. The Lamborghini company probably sees "completely accurate representation of our beautiful work of art" as being more important to their brand integrity than VW feels about accurately representing the Beetle, which is arguably THE most iconic car EVER already.)

I think a bigger issue is that Has/Tak doesn't really do all that many MP characters, and MP scale is the only real "apples to apples" comparison available in terms of quality out of all the scales. They've done Optimus and Starscream three separate times, Bumblebee and Megatron twice, and put out multiple decoes of the Datsun Bros, Sideswipe, Red Alert, and Wheeljack. What's sad is, even the characters they're on their third iteration of aren't objectively better than their competition! On the flip side, hardly any third party manufacturers make CHUG scale figures anymore, so Hasbro wins by default most of the time, and Hasbro's Legends figures are inexpensive "low end" toys, whereas 3P Legends scale figures cost twice as much as mainline figures and are basically expensive luxury items (they often cost as much as the Hasui-era MP figures!!!) so it's not apples to apples AT ALL.

But I think this thread proves at the very least that Has/Tak has not been completely left behind by the competition, when they go directly head-to-head.

 

These two paragraphs are not really that different. For you to say something is a better toy in your opinion is the very definition of the term "subjective". I do think some evaluations are more cut and dry, like Omnigonix Spinout being worse than MP Sunstreaker, or Bold Forms Gladius being worse than MP Megatron, but I can think of several reasons why some people may prefer other options in your examples. For example, I know some people prefer the bulkiness of Maketoys Megatron compared to the official, or the fact that DX9 Megatron and Weijiang Megatron are easier to transform than MP without all the paint chipping (I'm not counting IT-01 here, since we're referring to official Takara MP). I like Takara Inferno/Grapple mold in terms of engineering, but I vastly prefer the "look" of MMC Inferno - only because I don't prefer G1 toon accuracy. It doesn't make my opinion or your opinion wrong - as you said, this is subjective. Also, I'm sure there are plenty of people who would prefer MMC Sky Lynx over Hasbro's (when not taking value for dollar into account) - Hasbro has MUCH better neck articulation and stability, but I like MMC Lynx's better articulation with his legs and MMC Sky (bird?)'s wider and more stable wing span. Honestly though, you can't go wrong with either one (which makes the MMC's value proposition at 2-4x the Hasbro price kind of crazy).

An actual objective statement would be saying one figure is heavier than the other, or has more paint applications than the other - something that is verifiably true. When it comes to which figure is "better", that evaluation is too variable because people have different preferences and there is no standard criteria by which to judge the figures. Heck, even in my more obvious comparisons (eg MP Sunstreaker vs Omnigonix Spinout), it's possible that some people may prefer the latter for some unfathomable reason  

 

I share your preference of aesthetic and completely respect your opinion, but I disagree that some figures are just “objectively” better. These toys don’t have measurable functions that can be comparison-tested. They’re a mix of entertainment and art, and can only ultimately be evaluated subjectively.

For example, I completely disagree that MP Grapple is a better toy than MMC Girder. I love Girder but have no interest in the official MP, because the latter doesn’t meet my criteria. I know this because I bought MP Inferno (just because I wanted to try out different designs), but in retrospect I wish I’d just gotten Backdraft. I didn’t want a fold-up origami ladder. I don’t like featureless, flat-paneled limbs. I want black and not dark grey, dammit! Is MP Inferno a great toy? Yes! But its subjective failures— from my perspective— makes the MMC version the better toy.

I can create a list of criteria to compare two toys, pretend it’s objective with assignable values and a numerical total (hey, math doesn’t lie!), but my evaluation will still be subjective regardless. It’s not like comparing the 0-60 times, skidpad grip, and race lap times of sports cars. However, even with cars, I’m sometimes inclined to choose the “loser” based on driving feel and design. The subjective factors can often trump objective ones even when comparing functional things.