Are the Decepticons really the good guys and the Autobots the bad?

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by ScreamingYoYos, Aug 20, 2018.

  1. Ryan F

    Ryan F Transform and Roll Out!

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2009
    Posts:
    2,019
    News Credits:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    292
    Likes:
    +3,472
    Being a Brit I’m not really up to speed with US army paraphernalia, but I was under the impression that Hound was specifically meant to be a military jeep, rather than a civilian one, no?

    “Had to”, as in, it was mandated from on high. Not “had to”, as in, it was their only option. Apologies if I was unclear.

    Yeah, this was done so that his eventual switch to the Autobot faction would be easier for the writers. The fact remains, though, that in order to justify the presence of an Autobot flier, both the comic and the cartoon deliberately show him as a non-Autobot who later joins the Autobots.

    Cheers for the info! Not that I don’t believe you, but do you have a link to any evidence of this? I’ve seen a couple of examples of a pre-rub Skids with the ‘84 box art, and some vintage 1984 newspaper ads for Jetfire and Shockwave, but nothing for the Dinobots, I don’t think. If you can send me the info it’d be greatly appreciated, thanks!
     
  2. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2017
    Posts:
    4,099
    Trophy Points:
    217
    Likes:
    +2,439
    good point

    But it honestly I was really thinking about the majority and not every single member

    Even the police car could be considered paramilitary
    No apologies needed but I would like to see proof that it was a mandate

    It would seem that if it was a mandate is she does extended to the toy commercial as well the text spec and bio on the toy box

    At the moment I don’t have anything, but I remember Christmas of 84 going shopping a couple weeks before the holiday at a local store called TSS, Time Square stores, and we bought three of the Dinobot’s and jet fire as my Christmas present

    I will try looking for some of the info but I don’t get much of a chance to sign on and discuss things here because of my hectic schedule so please forgive me if it takes me some time or if I forget
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Eleyre

    Eleyre Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Posts:
    325
    Trophy Points:
    182
    Likes:
    +304
    Yeah, but you’re talking about his earth form that was chosen by a damaged Teletraan I. There’s no indication we have (that I’m aware of) that Hound’s original form was military in nature. And the whole consumer goods/military hardware discussion typically revolves around their Cybertronian alternate mode, not their earth modes.
     
  4. Ryan F

    Ryan F Transform and Roll Out!

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2009
    Posts:
    2,019
    News Credits:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    292
    Likes:
    +3,472
    Well, things are complicated by characters that were introduced later (Hardhead’s cybertronian tank mode, Warpath’s pre-Earth tank mode from the Smelting Pool two-parter), and I’m not sure that Soundwave’s Cybertronian lamp-post mode is particularly threatening. So looking at it retrospectively, there’s no real correlation between faction and alt-mode at all, outside of the original 1984 characters’ Earth modes.

    From the point of view of Hasbro and their marketing people (Griffin-Bacal?) it seemed a neat way to split the factions at the time the franchise was launched (the land vehicles were the good guys; the fliers and devices were the baddies), but any such pattern was broken when the Jetfire toy was launched a few months later.
     
  5. optimusmegas

    optimusmegas Target-Power-Titan-Prime-Battle-Master

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2007
    Posts:
    8,679
    Trophy Points:
    287
    Likes:
    +8,748
    Ebay:
    I think genocide and the enslavement of planets along with a general "give no fuck" about civilian casualties on other planets kinda answers this question. Grey areas disappear quick when death camps start to pop up.

    What in many continuities begins as a rebellion against an oppressive regime it always falls off the rails when megatron gains the power he seeks. The end result is very clear cut....its like cuba...a rebellion for freedom leads to another oppressive piece of shit in charge.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  6. Honorbound

    Honorbound The Working Hermit

    Joined:
    May 23, 2010
    Posts:
    3,120
    Trophy Points:
    262
    Likes:
    +2,310
    I love that last line. That is truth right there.

    It really makes you question whether he was genuinely seeking equality, or if he used that quest as a mask for his true goals, tossing it aside when it was no longer necessary.
     
  7. optimusmegas

    optimusmegas Target-Power-Titan-Prime-Battle-Master

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2007
    Posts:
    8,679
    Trophy Points:
    287
    Likes:
    +8,748
    Ebay:
    in IDW i feel it was equality then the aspect of war rule and expansion seduced megatron and it spiraled out of control.

    other continuities like the G1 cartoon he's a scheme of the week villain who was bad from the get go...aligned universe seems to follow that route too.

    either way there's a clear cut point where his motive no longer matters because what he's done along the way really tell the tale. also his followers aren't exactly misunderstood either...he grabbed sociopaths, manipulators, liars, and thugs to fill his ranks. you don't do that if you have good intentions
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2017
    Posts:
    4,099
    Trophy Points:
    217
    Likes:
    +2,439
    Just goer the record, there was never mention that Teletraan 1 was damaged, and other then healing a decepticon, not even an indication that it was damaged
     
  9. Eleyre

    Eleyre Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Posts:
    325
    Trophy Points:
    182
    Likes:
    +304
    In the cartoon? You're correct, they don't explicitly mention it. The fact that it seemed initially unable to distinguish between Decepticon and Autobot, despite clearly being able to do so later on, is a pretty clear indication. That and the fact that it went through a massive crash that took the entire ship, and all its inhabitants, completely offline seem to indicate at least some level of damage. Sometimes you don't need to have someone come right out and tell you that two plus two equals four.

    Teletraan's equivalent in the Marvel comics, however, was explicitly stated to be damaged. I'm fairly certain that was the reason given for it reviving the Decepticons. So ... either way ...

    That being said, whether it was damaged or not is completely irrelevant to my point about Hound's alternate form :p .
     
  10. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2017
    Posts:
    4,099
    Trophy Points:
    217
    Likes:
    +2,439
    I only brought it up because I found it humorous, but on the serious note it is completely relevant to your point about Hounds alternate mode

    If you’re going to claim that the computer is damaged condition lid to the choice in all mode then it is completely relevant that the computer was never stated to be damaged

    On another note the comic books equivalent of the same computer was called Aunty and indeed was stated to be damaged , but from what I recall, It was the reason given as to why it believed dinosaurs were the dominant lifeforms on the planet when it gave Grimlocks group Dino modes
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Eleyre

    Eleyre Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Posts:
    325
    Trophy Points:
    182
    Likes:
    +304
    I'm sure you'll explain why you found it humorous :p . I think you're reading too much into the way I worded the sentence and, in fairness, perhaps I didn't phrase it as well as I could have. I was not saying Hound was given a military jeep mode because Teletraan I was damaged. I was saying Teletraan I gave Hound a military jeep mode and it just happened to be damaged. You could completely take out the word "damaged" from my sentence and my point would remain.

    Nope. Or, at least, not originally. Aunty was introduced in the Marvel UK series, I believe. In the U.S. Marvel series, which came out originally, there was no mention of Aunty. Instead, it spoke exclusively of the Ark:

    Ark2.jpg

    Ark.jpg

    So yes, the comics explicitly state that the Ark was damaged and that was why it repaired the Decepticons as well. While there is no explicit mention of damage to Teletraan I in the cartoon, it's not too difficult to extrapolate that from the evidence that's shown. But, if you're of the opinion it wasn't damaged, hooey for you! :)  There's enough subjective material from that cartoon that you can walk away with pretty much any interpretation and not be totally wrong :) .
     
  12. Smitty.1981

    Smitty.1981 MEGATRON ATTACK

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2010
    Posts:
    15,756
    News Credits:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    337
    Location:
    Wichita Falls, TX
    Likes:
    +27,195
    There's an argument to be made for the aligned continuity Transformers Animated and probably even beast wars that there are Shades of Grey. The Autobots & Maximus may be seen as the heroes of the story but the Decepticons and Predacons seem to have a point of view that can be logically argued as noble. Although their practices to achieve their noble causes are not as noble.
     
  13. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2017
    Posts:
    4,099
    Trophy Points:
    217
    Likes:
    +2,439
    No need to explain I just have a weird sense of humor

    I don’t think you’re right and I’m really not willing to start digging out my original comic books but let me do a quick search on TF wiki .....


    The TF wiki page claims this to be from the marvel US run

    File:AuntieTransmitsSignals.jpg - Transformers Wiki

    Huffer calls the computer Aunty

    Thanks for the refresher on the other issue and I’m not of the mind that the computer wasn’t damaged I was just pointing out that it wasn’t stated
     
  14. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Droppin' Space Colonies

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Posts:
    36,720
    Trophy Points:
    392
    Location:
    [REDACTED]
    Likes:
    +18,440
    In general terms, the catalyst of the Decepticon uprising that started the war against the corrupt Autobots can be likened to the Russian Revolution and the Bougosie revolting against the Proletariat. The working class getting the better of their rich masters, but the end result is bad for everyone because the 'good' guys end up putting equally bad people in charge.
     
  15. TrooperMaximus

    TrooperMaximus TFW2K5 Sailor

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2004
    Posts:
    169
    Trophy Points:
    157
    Likes:
    +11
    This is actually a good question and one worth of scholarly debate. I recommend reading a book called The Morality of War by Brian Orend. He covers the history of just war theory pretty completely.

    In short it really depends on your perspective on war and how to conduct it. In more accurate terms, there are no "good guys" and "bad guys," just opposing sides in conflict.The Decepticons should really see themselves as just. However, they do routinely violate the just war principles and are not heroic. Therefore we can't support them as moral combatants. The Autobots, as far as I know, do adhere to just war principles and are heroic. So to boil it down...the cause of the war is not as important as how it is conducted.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  16. G1Prowl

    G1Prowl Prick, apparently

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2008
    Posts:
    11,773
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    312
    Likes:
    +8,047
    The only thing I have to add is that I'm REALLY hoping that the next batch of comic fiction steers clear from the faction moral ambiguity. It's fine on a character by character basis, but the whole "everybody is actually bad" trope got worn out pretty damn quick.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  17. Honorbound

    Honorbound The Working Hermit

    Joined:
    May 23, 2010
    Posts:
    3,120
    Trophy Points:
    262
    Likes:
    +2,310
    It makes people stop caring about the story if both sides are two different flavors of bad. If both sides are bad, then there's no meaningful conflict - you're just picking your poison and deciding how badly you want to suffer.
     
  18. Chromewind Cygate

    Chromewind Cygate Be The Rodimus Star

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2018
    Posts:
    55
    Trophy Points:
    37
    Location:
    Monroe, NC
    Likes:
    +60
    Ebay:
    Twitter:
    YouTube:
    Tumblr:
    Well for me as far as preserving the race of the bots and cons is concerned the Decepticons do a better job at it than the Autobots. Yea their methods are dead wrong but all they want at the end of the day is for *their people* to rule and not share that ruling with anyone else. I have slight respect for that as it shows you care about your roots and will defend it until your dying day. The Autobots are just kinda *let the humans join, let this alien race come in, we want peace on earth* which is all fine and good, but their methods of doing so involves taking out their own history and their own people.

    Now all that being said respect aside thats still very god tier racially charged motives and not healthy in the slightest hence why the Autobots as lame as their methods can be sometimes are at the end of the day the good guys we should all strive to be. Maybe if Megatron and his cons took a more diplomatic approach to their methods and ideologies then you'd have something going.
     
  19. WishfulThinking

    WishfulThinking "Don't touch it! It's Zvil!"

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2014
    Posts:
    13,069
    News Credits:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    287
    Location:
    Wichita, KS
    Likes:
    +11,117
    Definition of FASCISM

    Definition of fascism
    1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
     
    • Like Like x 2
  20. Chromewind Cygate

    Chromewind Cygate Be The Rodimus Star

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2018
    Posts:
    55
    Trophy Points:
    37
    Location:
    Monroe, NC
    Likes:
    +60
    Ebay:
    Twitter:
    YouTube:
    Tumblr:
    Exactly. Hence the key words *Dead Wrong*