arcee is the worst thing about transformers, i would rather have the next movie be about an army of wheelies than ahve arcee in it for even a 1 second cameo

 

The last thing we need is someone smaller and faster. The action sequences were hard enough to follow as it was.

 

Now that's just cold. No movie is worth seeing with an army of wheelies, unless we see both decepticons and autobots wailing on them Dynasty Warriors like...

Then again, hordes of wheelie's sent by unicron... Well they are the most annoying TF creation in existence.

Arcee at least gives women as I said, a strong roll model even from cybertron, so long as they don't make her a 'crossdressed effeminate bot' and decide not to be lazy on how simple it would be to write in.

 

You skipped and ignored my actual explanations to this and still associate human 'relations' to non human bots. While economically, it is feasible that they were similiar to us at one point. There are some mainstays in how cultures form even off world.

While I am refering to male female bots, and trust that canon over furman's. I'm not ignoring the other canon. But what you fail to see is that it is all its OWN canon. Very few cross until you get to beast wars. Which almagamates the first toon from america to the marvel comics. The G1 toon itself is constant within itself barring hit or miss spots. All the others maintain their own canon, so while I do limit my comments to G1, I have reason for that. The cartoon came FIRST, and to me in spots shows more sense than even the comics (until season 3 and primacron *shudder*. I prefer the he didn't really make unicron, just a new body for unicron, he didn't know with what he was truly messing with when he discovered that desolate mettaloid world and inspired to create, or something similiar to noah from noah's ark, and was fed the info on what to do from unicron himself who was trapped).

Furman had a habit of treating these beings as creations. The movie-verse was not built by quints or primus, they were given life by the allspark. They are a race of alien beings, not a bunch of machines that became sentient. Cybertronians have their own culture, life, and social order similiar to ours. To automatically assume they don't have genders because they don't fit into our simplistic human knowledge of genetalia, is quite frankly sad. Which is another reason I frown on furman's statements (which started all this hoopla, because he hates arcee and just made a simplistic story to get away from her.) It was indeed lazy, and as a writer myself, shows quite frankly a lack of caring to further push these beings as their own race not created by others. To me if they don't include genders, there's nothing to suggest that cybertron just wasn't another world overrun by the 'matrix' like robots, that happened in hollywood, except they have no knowledge of organics. Which could have faded over time.

Arcee could have relations to springer or hot rod, but again you're limiting your view to humanistic forms of sexual relations. Which as I stated before, that slash is just sickening and demeans transformers and their idea (NO ORGANICS WITHIN!). My comments are more towards wires, and like networking as opposed to the human version, or more. I've been refering to it as 'sharing systems' etc. So I'm not bothering trying to explain the higher level aspects anymore.

But yes, Genderless bots, and even trying to explain it in the movies will create remarks of 'transvestibots' in hateful audiences as she looks female, acts female, but she isn't female. As I stated before, what seperates a fembot from the other bots? Not simply looks. If that were the case, any skinny big chested bot would be a fembot. And this is not the case, it's more to do with the internal workings of either the flow of power, circuitry, or difference in the spark make up itself and more than that. What makes a person who they are is more than simply outward appearance.

Two sparks, with a piece taken from each and then merged together, would essentially be a new life, with traits from both progenators, yes it would weaken the 'parents' for awhile, but as does human child birth. But as I also stated, there's many forms of 'birth' on earth. Why must we assume a female tf must be pregnant for 9 months, and then bears a child? These AREN'T HUMANS. But on the same notion, they are more than JUST machines. Every walk of life has it's own form of reproduction, and barring aesexuality, most need two parents that each have aspects needed the other doesn't. (Two parents may not always mean two of differing genders though!)

Heck even gargoyles had eggs. Why must we assume beings metalic in nature are mammalian?

On the note of the film, I have analyzed it, quite repeatedly, without support to say it's crap, your opinion is quite moot and invalid, as I do have a mountain of support for why it all works and makes sense, let alone the aspects that can be drawn from it. Why must people assume what they 'don't get' is crap? I'm sorry if aspects went over people's heads. But come on, you can break this movie down as much as you can the first star wars. Now without your reasons, I can't be direct in my replies, so no reason to bother in 'this topic' on explaining it. Let alone film techniques, but then again how many saw 'american beauty' and thought, disgusting reality piece going for shock value and realism with it's use of weed, boobs, and sexual jokes, when in reality it's a metamorphisis piece. Or the abundant other classics and hits, or even oscar winners people don't get. Just because you don't see the elements, doesn't make them not there.

Just because 'it's a silly toy movie' doesn't mean the writer's didn't put effort into it.
If anything, they give the average movie goer more credit at leaving things in details that apparently so many missed. No it's not oscar worthy, but it does indeed tell a coherent story within this world, that makes sense and has validity. And to be frank I applaud them for attempting to treat audiences as not stupid by doing it this way. But it leads to instances like this...

Art can stand up to scrutiny, and can be brainless entertainment. I've said many times in the past, it's a lazy writer who just writes assuming a set level of intelligence for his targeted age range, and doesn't even attempt to write it as a real character dynamics and reasons.

Let's look at cartoons for example, they often write on two layers. The adult nods to keep the parent enthralled with higher level thinking, and the glorified action and flashiness or inane humor to keep younger watching. On that same token, if a kid gets a joke or remark he shouldn't, the parent can question it. TV is not a babysitter, it's a tool that should be used to help families be together. But then again, that's responsible parenting to monitor these things closely or use a DVD that has been 'previewed' first.

I also have a strong distaste for her being 'programmed' to act in any such way. That's almost insinuating that a cybertronian can be programmed to act 'good' or 'bad' or any other aspect that could be deemed as their 'soul' or personality. And I have a strong distaste for THAT. As I said, these are alien beings, not mechanical robots that just by happenstance gained sentience and have traits programmed in by others. They live and breathe, think and choose, have free will, make moral decisions. They aren't simply just personalities of circuit boards and chips. What's stopping them from capturing megatron and reprogramming him? Or galvatron. The few times it was attempted in comics, look at the mess it entailed, and how their 'true' personality came forward fighting back. This brings the question of, does a cybetronian have a soul? It's own free will or mind? Does a cybertronian have concepts of self and who they want to be or are? Aspirations, hopes, dreams? Or are all those simply preprogrammed responses as well? That's what arcee being 'programmed' to be female represents. G1 toon rarely treats them as this, but the marvel comics, and UK comics, most assuredly do. To me, well honestly it takes the 'humanity' out of these bots, and even the entire aspect of what sentience means. It's all programmed after all. If we're trying to keep it realistic, then we can't have it both ways. This is an Alien race in the movie-verse, not machines built by quints etc as I've stated many a time before.


*Point of correction for myself, I do not condone the use of "Tranvestibots" as a term, and when this post was written was at a time before public understandings of those concepts were clear, and that word had yet to fall out of vernacular to mean what it was. I do not approve of the term being used as an insult, and at the time this was written had yet to educate myself on the full appropriate terminology, nor had these topics yet been all that defined by modern standards. So do not take this out of context, as it was in relation to explaining that gender is far more complicated than simply outward appearance. But in my youth and immaturity, I mis-phrased a lot, as youth and ignorance is prone to do, especially at a time when information on these topics was of such a taboo, very few knew what the appropriate terminology was as yet. But that being said, Furman's approach of it as an insult at the time in how he was angry he was being forced to write a female robot, was and is still crap and lazy writing that lacks imagination.*

 

To point out some factual issues:
G1 Cartoon did not come first. The Marvel comic and the Cartoon debuted around the same time in late 1984. In my area the comic came first actually. The characters and "canon" (such as it was at that point) for the show bible were derived from the profiles by Bob Budiansky, who launched the Marvel TF comic. In this sense, you could see the comic (and Budiansky's bible) as being the original and authoritative source, and the Cartoon stories that followed as digressions from that original canon.

Also, the show was NOT constant within itself by any means. It was frequently contradictory, and far moreso than the Marvel comic was (at least in the earlier part of it's run when I followed it). G1 was a mess, and the various elements (US comics, UK comics, Cartoon, Tech Specs) were conflicting... but I'd say the Cartoon was the TF media that was LEAST consistent within itself. Let's not rewrite history here.  

Regardless, the point is that G1 is a muddled canon, so it makes it hard to quote G1 sources for anything. It kind of leaves it up to the revivalist writers and us fans to sort it all out. And here we are.  

Mmm... yes... it was witty, wasin't it? I think it was a legitimate jibe, even though I admit it's a bit unfair to you. What DID draw you in then? Maybe I missed that point because I was busy re-stating all my points that you ignored.  

And enough with the "transvestibots"! It just sounds like a juvenile knee-jerk homophobic reaction to a very simple concept. No gender. No gender roles. No gender-assigned traits. A TF who is designed to look like a human female is just a robot who looks sort of like a human woman but isn't. There's no discomfort there, because when there is no TF gender, there are no "males" either! All one gender. But that's just one idea... but Rocky Horror panic really has no place in the debate.  

No sadder than assuming they DO have genders because of our simplistic human knowledge. In fact, if anything, my suggestion regarding inverted polarities is even less coloured by human cultural presumptions. Your assumption is that only "Fembots" carry the inverted polarity... that is to say, only the TFs that look like hot chicks. That's a far more simplistic assumption.

I think it's far lazier to simply try to shoe-horn a whole cybernetic alien ecosystem into facile echo of human gender relations, rather than devise a more complex, alien and original interpretation. I'm not a huge Furman fan. He's overrated... but I think his Arcee solution was a sensible one at the time.

No matter whether you explain it with "inverted polarities" it still boils down to boy-robot-meets-girly-robot, makes baby robot. Which makes it a lot easier to write Springer/Arcee fanfictions that would make your mom blush. Not saying that's your motivation, but I know it speaks for a portion of the fandom.

There you go, trying to assign your human binary gender values on an alien race again. I think it's equally denigrating to assume an alien race has to mirror our own in every way. Again, the notion of "gender" is very flexible in species all over planet earth. Why shouldn't it be on another planet with a fundamentally different form of life on it?

Heh... KISS Players didn't get the memo.  

But yeah, okay... I think I'm sort of getting your drift. We may be duelling over a couple of points we actually agree on. However, wires and networking ports already have a pretty strong dose of pseudo-sexual association... so the more puerile connotations are still there. Plug and play indeed.

And yet, in the end, it's not this "sharing systems" part of your proposal that I have a problem with... it's the assumption that the girly Fembots would necessarily represent the opposing "gender" in this case. The reason I dislike Fembots is precisely because they are so transparently designed to appeal to preadolescent boys (and post-adolescent fanboys) with their pronounced feminine characteristics and vague sexualisation.

This is it... there are many skinny big-chested TFs that would never be mistaken for a Fembot. It's rather obvious when they are making a consciously "female" bot. I guess part of my problem from the beginning is that there are TFs who look female and act female... there's absolutely no reason for it.

But yeah... I have to keep reminding myself... TF is Science-Fantasy not Science-Fiction. Things don't have to really make sense.

Though that reminds me... I'd completely forgotten about the Cybertron Override affair! A bot spontaneously changes gender between versions of the show. When I first heard that, I thought it was hilarious, and sort of cool because it would mean we'd get a "Fembot" that wasn't obviously "feminized" (though Nitro Convoy was skinny, and had a big chest). But I still find it kind of lame that all Cybertron fan art and peripheral art has "assigned" female traits to Override, suddenly adding curvy thighs where none were before and giving him/her pronounced lips... not to mention drawing the character in demure female-identified postures.

Here's another idea... that TFs don't reproduce at ALL. Maybe the only source of life IS the Matrix or some other "intervention"? After all, for a race whose lifespans number in millions of years, I think they would rapidly overpopulate the universe if they actually had any reproductive drive. Of course according to current indications, there are only about 6 Fembots in existence. Maybe they're an almost extinct species... making TFs an almost extinct species, despite their longevity!

Well, I never assumed that.   In this scenario, I would expect the new merged "spark" (crystal, board, whatever) waits until there are enough resources to actually build a body around it. Hence you could have some Transformers who are built in factory assembly lines (supported by numerous anecdotal sources in G1), or you could have TFs that are build "by hand" by their progenitors with whatever is available (if they have the skills). If there aren't enough materials, you might have a smaller, more basic TF. You also might have tons of resources, and build a heavy duty TF fighting machine, but if his Spark is too weak he may end up being inefficient, clumsy or "buggy". It's the Spark that determines how well a TF inhabits it's body.

Also, TF "children" like Wheelie may just be new sparks with smaller, more efficient, temporary frames while a Spark's full potential is being assessed, or until more resources are available.

Heh... I disagree. We program our children when we raise them, and send them to school and society programs us all. Furthermore, we are learning all the time how genetics and the chemical composition of our brains can strongly influence how we think and behave, not to mention the fundamental programming that is "instinct"... the programming we are born with, and we often repress in the name of being "civilised".

It's NOT a big stretch to imagine a machine race that has ways of streamlining this process, of programming traits and abilities and behaviours into themselves at "startup". There would still be a learning process, a development of personality outside the parameters of the programming. Sometimes TFs would outgrow or resist their programming.

I like to think that TFs are programmed (again, many TF sources speak of their "programming") but it's ultimately the "Spark" that determines what their tendencies are... essentially the wild card factor, the metaphysical "soul" that we believe inhabits our genetically programmed physical bodies.

With TF biology, the fun of it is finding ways to -reconcile- their machine traits (programming, assembly, etc) with their "natural" traits (rather than modelling them completely after organic sentients). That's why the nanotech "formatting" of protoforms with new sparks which has been popular lately really does nothing for me. It removes too many of the "machine" traits, in favour of a sort of mysterious magical instant process.

Because their systems have too many safeguards. They are Decepticon leaders of the highest order... it's not easy to hack into their system. That AND their Sparks are far too strong to be sublimated by basic programming. Hence, a TF can learn Earth languages by assimilating a program that synthesizes speech from streaming media data (say, the internet or TV satellite feeds), without having to actually "learn" the language. Programming runs all sorts of TF functions... but the Spark, especially a strong Spark, controls all.

Similarly, you can build an Omega Supreme body, and build in all the programming necessary for being a Sentinel, and operating the weapons, etc... but you need a strong Spark to manage all that power effectively. A weak Spark might not even be able to operate such a body, may not be able to "feel" the limbs moving.

In this sense, we can imagine that all the most powerful TFs have very strong, very unique Sparks... which is why they are special, and can't easily be duplicated. Perhaps some "powers" that TFs have might even be in the Spark too... like a genetic mutant power. Windcharger's magnetic powers, Skywarp's teleportation, Soundwave's mind-reading, Megatron's ability to link transdimensionally to a black hole. It would explain why these powers are unique to those characters, and not replicated across the Decepticon army.

Actually, you can! Easily!  

Believe it or not, I think we're pretty close to the same thinking on this one... aside from the gender issue, of course. In the case of Furman's "programmed" Arcee, a TF could be programmed to behave in "feminine" fashion for the benefit of dealing with humans... but all of those are essentially superficial traits, no different than being trained from birth to behave in certain ways. You may have free will, but it's not easy to shed the accent of your region, or change a fundamentalist religious upbringing and ingrained value system, or stop calling people "sir" and "ma'am" when you were raised to do so. Phobias and mental disorders are part of our programming too, though in this case, they would be bad or buggy programs.

Likewise, a TF can be programmed to be many things, but can still go against their programming. Hence a TF designed and programmed to be a Decepticon warrior can switch sides, if his Spark is too "gentle"... he has been programmed to be a killer, but somewhere in his Spark is compassion that makes him fight his programming. Stuff like that. Sounds pretty "human" to me!  

(btw... ever seen THE IRON GIANT? "I am not a gun!" Exactly the same thing!)

I don't think we'll ever completely agree on the gender issue, but in my case, I'm even split on the issue because I now tend to recognize the notion of "female transformers" as part of the fantastical space-opera kitch appeal of Transformers.

But in terms of programming vs. free will, I think my proposal works. How about you?

zmog

 

Hey, has anybody read up on the background for the All Spark? I know half of the time its not a reliable source, but Wikipedia.org has got a nice background section on the All Spark from Beast Wars and information for the movie cannon. It refers to nothing about Gender bending (Male/Female origins) for Transformers, though. I honestly don't think they should ultize it in such a way. No Explaination for a Autobot of a female likeness is fine with me (though, I know most people, general audience or nit-pickers, will complain).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Spark

 

Just wanted to add that they do kinda explain this...
When Jazz was first introduced, Sam asks why he talks like that and Optimus explains they learned to communicate Earth's languages through the world wide web. It isn't that Jazz is black, that's just how he choose to relate to humans based on what he liked from watching the internet.

 

It could have worked!!!

Arcee in the movie could have worked , and I think it would have given it a nice adddition.

- Acree could have a holographic projection of a female rider wearing a full bikersuit and helmet, just like the decepticons ahd holo-drivers.

-She could have went with Mikela since she lost her Vespa just like Ironhide went with Lennox.

- Lennox could have used her to takeout Blackout or she could have done the her self doing the same thing Lennox did. Speeding down the strreet in bike form transforming into robot and sliding underneath Blackout and blasting in his crotch.

There are plenty of thing that could have been done with her. As for Gender differences with robots , why beat your head in thinking about why or how.

As for some saying Girl robots should'nt fight along side Boy robots seems like you have some childhood issues you need to settle.

 

Because that process is kinda fun. Debate, discussion, postulation... it's not that we're "wasting our time thinking about it". There's absolutely nothing discussed on this website that's actually relevant to real, serious life... any discourse on possible explanations of TF gender, etc, is purely a recreational pursuit.  

That is to say, some of us enjoy stretching our brains about stupid stuff sometimes. The same way some of us enjoy watching movies that don't numb us with idiocy... thinking is fun! Whee!  

zmog

 

IDW has toyed with the idea over in Rom with Stardrive, and some other material, and it's likely to be something to be explored more later in other ways. How cybertronian life can come to exist from multiple ways within tradition and their species.

Back then when I wrote that, that was mostly only toying with ideas that Beast Wars had already partially presented. Now we've got much wider forms of lore to draw from between the well of sparks, and how new sparks are created, and the difference between manufactured forced born/aged like Neosapiens in Exo-squad to other commentary like what Gattaca presents in trait isolating genes, and natural combinations from two sparks that are drawn to each other. Lots of potential and things to test out. Stuff written almost 12 years ago are rather outdated as ideas have long since grown. xD

 

What thel hell this thread is from 11 years ago.

 

Eh, antiquated concept. I think we can do better than that now with how more wide ranging and diverse the potential is to better relate it to modern understandings of gender and how that's impacted by bio-chemistry and whatever else for the robotic equivalent of these concepts in a metallic form. Though spark polarity is something that could be something interesting to explore too in how it relates to other concepts too, but In 12 years, what was taboo back then isn't the same taboo as it is now, and more wide ranging information and data is available to better expand on these concepts as the world has become more open to discussing them with better availability of information and understanding at reach.

Back when much of this was discussed was before the plight of what others go through had really come to light, and taboos were so rigidly in place, many of us didn't fully understand what we were even arguing yet. And sometimes, less is more. No one really questions it in other media anyway, it simply is. Though it is still crap to assume that all bots are male, or that all bots are genderless and therefore must look male. But these are all old topics that have long since been formally settled in the fiction and corrected as needed. Like I said, 12 year old topic, that's long since before more information and material on these topics were available. Even going back over my own statements, I'm a bit ashamed of some of my word choice usage, as at the time I was not aware how that word has been used for hate speech as I am aware of now.

 

Yup, as an actual Transformer she would’ve been quick, small, smart, have stealth & have agility. Basically how Transformers Prime Arcee was, if I’m being totally honest I prefer having Arcee over Jazz in the first film.

EXACTLY. I completely agree with this, there doesn’t have to be an explanation except.... they SIMPLY exist, in G1 whenever the bots, cons were created, Cybertron boomed with life... fembots were legit just apart of the whole thing!

In the movies the Allspark just created them, just like how it created ALL of them.

It’s great how Transformers Prime never bothered to explain Arcee being a female, just accepted it.

Then as the series went on a bunch of fembots, femcons appeared just to be killed, had no explanation... so why would Arcee need one? Also if Arcee truly was to replace Jazz she would’ve been dead.

Yeah, what the actual hell is going on with this Allspark? It seems to be so unrealistic, strange, though during the production of the film they tried to make it realistic as possible with the designs, CGI, no mass shifting.

It’s funny how they contradict themselves numerous times while making these films.
More recently is Lorenzo just spewing lies about TLK before it released.

Wouldn’t be surprised, I’m disgusted.

Your opinion, though I think she’s a great character, doesn’t need an explanation. Wheelie is annoying... and horrible....

Pretty much, hahah.

Agreed.

 

My problem(s) are the following:

• I dislike TFs having nonsensical and overly conventionalized and culturalized genders, just like Earth humans do, with over-anthropomorphized physical gender traits just like idealized humans... because it's a sort of unimaginative approach to an alien race that is otherwise about as different from humans and "organic" species as you can get
• Despite the fact that they are "not earth robots", from the beginning they were conceptualized along the metaphor of Earth machines and industrial technology, and pushing the anthropomorphic biology too far clashes with this metaphor.
• A lot of people use gender in Transformers as an excuse to promote the same old exploitative stereotypes and sexist tropes, and I think that's annoying, especially when it doesn't really fit with the rest of the fiction.

I know that some continuities handle gender differently. That's fine. Some versions of the fiction have it, some don't. But as a fan from the beginning, I've always felt that gender was badly handled in G1.

First, it's not an assumption. There's copious evidence - and in some cases explicit confirmation - that TFs don't have gender in some continuities. Also, having normal human-style genders in most of the fictions doesn't actually make logical sense.

Therefore it is my personal opinion that most of the time, putting gender into Transformers is lame. I hope you can handle someone with a different opinion without acting childishly, unlike your "sister"  

So, you just write exactly the same way as her, using all the same vocabulary, commenting on all the same old zombie topics from years ago, making all the same arguments in the exact same wording. Gotcha.  

You do know that it's against the forum rules to post under 2 accounts, right? You can actually get banned for that. I don't want to get you in trouble, but just sayin'... you should be a bit less obvious.

zmog

 

Some of those taboos weren't really that taboo, even. People have been talking about gender as performance, as a spectrum, and as a social construct for decades... but the discussion is a bit more public now.

But apart from that, the other issue is that even if Cybertronians did have two (or more) different spark polarities, there'd be no reason for them to manifest in terms of obvious "male" and "female" tropes, or for their bodies to match up with outward human physical and cultural sexual characteristics (like beards, boobs, lipstick, etc...)

I think gender can be a lot more experimental and open-ended than that, especially with aliens based on a different biological foundation.

That's always been a fallacious assumption... though it's true that the media has always treated them as default male, and it shouldn't be that way. Obviously, if we acknowledge that there is no gender, then no bots are male. And the truth is that the huge majority of TFs don't look "male"... they're more abstract than that. They just don't look like exaggerated females.

I'm not sure what words you used, but the cultural baggage surrounding language is always shifting. You can't always judge situations 12 years ago by today's norms. And chances are what we say and think now might be considered abhorrent by young people in another 12 years.  

zmog

 

Haha and in the end

Spoiler: BB

Arcee did appear!

 

Didn’t Bay say she only appeared so he could kill her?

 

Bayverse & G1 loves to do this.

I noticed in Bumblebee though that Arcee doesn’t have boobs, or lipstick, her design isn’t exactly the same as G1 except the colour scheme.

 

Zombie thread.

From what I've gathered Bay said he didn't like Arcee and if she were to appear in the first movie, she was going to die instead of Jazz, probably due to both being the smallest and Bay not liking the character.

Apparently the reason Jazz was axed was purely due to him being the smallest. But maybe I'm remembering incorrectly.

 

Bay makes no actual sense.

“Let’s kill of Jazz, he’s the smallest!”

Like, what?

“I hate Arcee!”

Didn’t he hate Arcee just because she was a female? Weird.