My thoughts about Arcee in the movie:

On a character level, I don't think it would work. Because the G1 series had BB as Spike's companion and then after the 1986 movie, it was focussed more on Danny and Arcee.

With that being said, if the writers had to stay true to that aspect of the story, then it would have to require more time to develop that relationship. Because it was originally about a boy and his car. We learned that Bumblebee is Sam's guardian. So adding a motorcycle to the mix.........I really don't know how they would add that in because Arcee would have to have just as much a emotional impact on Sam as Bumblebee has. Otherwise fans would argue that the didn't do justice to Arcee. Arcee would definitely have to be a major character in the film because in the cartoon, we actually cared for her because in a way, she was Danny's guardian. So to do justice to the character, they would have to give as much screen time to Arcee as they gave to BB. And if you had to choose one, between the 2, most would end up choosing BB.

If they were to add Arcee to the mix, I would think that she would be Mikaela's guardian because it would be more appropriate with the girl on girl thing. And also Mikaela was seen riding a scooter in the movie. So just like how BB upgraded from a 74 to an 2009, Mikaela would later upgrade her scooter to a motorcycle.

But as a Transformer, they had better make her quick and strong because they were saying she would be a small/human sized Transformer if she was a motorcycle but what she lacks in size, she can make up in speed and agility and stealth.

 

I like having female robots around in TF so as to provide different design styles and voices and/or characterisations to the mostly male cast.

Why bother explaining? If one can accept that there's a planet full of living alien robots who have a living god without question, then you should be able to accept the concept of the race also having 'female' robots. Overexplaining things in Transformers inevitably makes things unfun.

No need to stealth-insult people who have a different viewpoint to your own.

 

It was actually stated in the Marvel TF Universe that Arcee only resembles a human female. That's sort of canon, but even the "canon" of Transformers is a big mess, so that's not really the final word, I'll admit.

As a kid, I hated that there were female autobots... not because girls were "icky" but because the "fembots" were inexplicably girly, and there was no logical reason for it. Yes, even as a 10-year-old, internal logic was important to me, so anyone who defends stupidity by saying "it's just for kids" can just STFU!   Kids are smarter than we give them credit for, especially if we give them the opportunity to think, rather than spoonfeeding them dumbed down garbage.

But I digress... in recent years, I've developed a soft spot for Fembots just because I've realized more and more that TF is not coherent hard sci-fi... it's a science-fantasy that confounds most sensible approaches, and Fembots can be part of that campy cartoon reality.

Still, I'm still at odds with the notion of TF genders, because I tend to identify that mindset with nerdy fantasies, fembot-fanboy art that looks just like human women with boxy bikinis glued to them, and people who used to TS on Transformers MUSHes. In short, part of me still considers it really lame.  

While I can now appreciate the campiness of TF space princesses and femme fatales (even Arcee in all her pink, princess-Leia, Barbie-vette tomboy cliche glory), I still like the idea that TF gender is a sort of vague thing.

I mean, if TFs might have opposing "polarities" that enable them to create a new spark, who says that those opposing polarities are always found in Fembots, and that this act of creation is always associated with pair-bonding? What if two "male-identified" Decepticons use their opposing polarities to create a new spark intended to be a Decepticon super-warrior? No love, sex or apparent gender involved!

And by comparison, what if Grapple and Hoist decided to spend the rest of their lives together, helping build new structures, relaxing in each other's company, and taking their chihuahua-trons for walkies? Does one of them become Fembot-identified automatically? Is it different than if one of them settled down with a nice curvy skinny pink bot? Since TF relationships are presumably sexless, does that make their relationship "gay" or simply a platonic partnership/friendship?

And what about "fembots" that aren't girly in the slightest? Gobots had Crasher, Small Foot and Pathfinder, who aside from their voices, were pretty much indistinguishable physically from their male counterparts. BM had Strika. What's with Fembots and their hips, lips, and feminine chest protrusions?

And (in an admitted act of self-promotion   ) how come there aren't more Fembots like this?
http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/fanq/z/a/zachariah3/TF02mudslinger.jpg.html


zmog

 

1. That was the furman story I was refering, check who wrote that story.

2. The polarity idea is in suggesting that only the fembots have the opposing polarity, as someone else mentioned, much like chromosomes in humans.

3. Enjoying the company of someone, and having relations are far two different things. Just because a guy has roommates that are close friends, doesn't make him gay does it? Just means he doesn't feel the need to settle with a girl or procreate. It's the relations and attractions that would define 'sexuality'. But even so, without any clue how they may share 'processes' that could be again anyone's guess. And on this note though, the japanese beast wars dub of the cgi series had air razor as a male bot, because female bot toys don't sell well.

4. Fembots are to cybertronians as women are to humans, not all women are curvaceous vixens now are they? Or anorexic barbie dolls? Or the 1930s beauty queen? Not to mention, not all guys are attracted to the same thing, etc.

Gobots are just that gobots, not transformers, they were by definition the knock off brand. We don't even know how gobots even come into being. It's never been stated they were built, born, or what, let alone have they ever had time to even consider such things in the show or movie. It was always, must stop the Rebels before they win the war.

Transformers is the only thing we've ever been able to explore prior to the war or after. "War Dawn" of G1 is a prime example of this. Orion Pax has a "girlfriend" and he's 'the jealous type.' Seems like clear gender definitions here and that's G1 toon. BW Rattrap also makes remarks to Cheetor about places that would put him to shame(some episodes it seems like he means certain bars, other times things more provacative). There's also Black Arachnia and silverbolt, and there's Tigatron and Airrazor. Chromia in Galaxy force (whatever her cybertron counterpart was), and also Arcee in energon. Most of the time they've had a clear definition of gender partiality that doesn't seem programmed in or 'created'. I'm not counting the other speed planet fem bot, as he's a gender bender too, like Japan had done to Airrazor, only reversed for us, making him now female. (Poor nitro convoy).

The Marvel comics had a tendency to treat the Cybertronians as a bunch of machines that gained sentience either through primus' will, or quintesson machinations, and rebeled or evolved. The movie bots are more than that. Alien Race, not machines created by an alien race. As stated before, we as humans are limited by what we think to be true by what we know, and these beings use building blocks of life foreign to us. Even the alloys are foreign to us.

5. As I stated before, not all women look like barbie, let alone do all guys find that attractive. Why couldn't fembots vary as much as 'male'-bots?

Keep in mind, these aren't just gendered 'machines'. These are gendered advanced alien life forms of a planet who's main building block of life is metallic alloys as opposed to carbon-based like on earth. Yes they are machines and robot's by our definition, but they are more than just simply that.

 

Actually, I was referring to the actual Transformers Universe series... the one that was just basically a profile book for TFs, based on the original Hasbro character bibles. If Furman also established that, then I'd say that's as close to TF canon as it gets for Arcee.  

MY point was that since there is no real reason for Fembots to look different (ie:girly) from er... Androbots(?), then theoretically there are no physiological differences between the "genders". If so, then differing polarity may not have anything to do with how "girly" you look. Starscream might have a reverse polarity (I don't think anybody would be surprised), or so might Ravage... or Cosmos (can't you just see it?) or even Gears!

Unless you are suggesting that this reversed polarity would be similar to hormones, and would cause a protoform to develop into a dainty, curvaceous, high-voiced TF with a penchant for pastel colours?  

That's my point... in a species with no physiological gender, and therefore no "sex", would there be any difference between "male" bots forming an exclusive "pair" unit, and a union of Fembot and Autobot ? I would say no.

But then, there are people that would like to believe that TFs do "have sex" in some form... which I consider to be problematic. Essentially an example of misplaced eroticism infringing on a more sensible solution.

Exactly... and the G1 toon can't seem to keep any of it's canon straight.  

As for Gobots, my example stands. I liked that Gobot "girls" didn't have to adhere to a 20th century human ideal of "femininity". They were robots.

However, you're incorrect on 2 counts:

Gobots were NOT "by definition the KO brand". This is a common misconception, but Gobots were actually released significantly BEFORE Transformers.

I'll say this again, louder... GOBOTS WERE NOT KNOCK-OFFS OF TRANSFORMERS! THEY CAME FIRST!

(Sorry, but Gobots get little enough respect as it is, without fallacies like this circulating.   )

Transformers outdid them in popularity because TFs included stronger characterisations and a backstory. Gobots beefed up their backstory later, but it was too little, too late.

Secondly... there WAS an explanation for Gobot genders, and it was fully canonical with the TV show. In that sense, you have to give Gobots credit for going somewhere the TFs never quite did.

The original inhabitants of Gobotron were human-like organics. A global cataclysm caused most of the Gobotronians to place their brains in robot bodies in order to survive (a little bit like the Robotix storyline). Therefore the female Gobots are just that... brains of female humanoids placed within robot bodies.

There was no reason for them to make "female" bodies, but when you think about it, there is MUCH more reason for Gobots to look "female" than TFs. In the case of Gobots, it could be reasoned that some female Gobotronians would prefer robot bodies that preserved a touch of "femininity" because it would remind them that they were once human.

I agree! So why don't they? I think Strika is the only example of a non-Barbie TF female. Heck, most female TFs even have stiletto heels! Pretty sad.

zmog

 

No need to assume that you are being insulted. I'm insulting the movie, and if by extension, that makes you feel as if you are being targeted for liking the film, then you should ask yourself why you feel defensive. If my opinion is different than yours, why should I have to conceal it?

You might assume that I think fans of the movie are slack-jawed peons, but that would be your assumption. I never stated that. Only I know for sure, and I'm not tellin'.  

So why did people enjoy the movie so much? In terms of just about any measure of plot logic, intelligence or coherency, the movie was pretty mindless and full of massive errors (or simply slack storytelling). I wouldn't say that's even strictly opinion... even those who liked the movie often admit as much. I'm just surprised that in spite of this, the film is as popular as it is... people have really turned a blind eye to it's flaws in the name of nostalgia, eye-candy,"entertainment", etc...

I just couldn't do it... maybe I'm just picky.

zmog

 

I forgot about the gobot story. Gobots isn't the same in it's original form at all as to what is here in the states either. They used iirc what is essentially a bandai license now.

Gobots episode 1 - 09/08/1984
Transformers Episode 1 - 09/17/1984
The toylines though, Hasbro has them beat by going into discussions earlier in 83 than Tonka did. So in essence they still were the semi knock off one. And if you want to get more specific, Diaclone predates Machine Robo, but, Bandai does have the luxury of having the first waves out in the states due to trying to market it as 'Machine Men' but had little to no luck until tonka came with in the picture and changed them to gobots.

The books were done by furman, as he's the one who wrote many of the comics as well. And while yes G1 continuity isn't completely consistent, it has had it's mainstays. Orion Pax and Elita-1 being a biggie. So I take that as canon, and to be frank while the marvel stories are good, they really only serve to correct the G1 errors, just as G1 corrects the comic errors. Hence why beast wars drew from both. Toon errors mostly were surrounding primacron and Unicron, otherwise it really isn't so bad, until you try and figure out when did Prime get the matrix of leadership. Which could still very well be after 'War Dawn' as he's yet to prove himself in that new form, and they still have many many more battlest to fight before we see them in MTMTE.

I still see no flaw in the opposing polarity theory as similiar to human's XY chromosomes. All I had said previously is that it would make them think on essentially a different wavelength than malebots. Appearance, is just that, appearance. The thing with furman and his IMHO flubbed up take on arcee, even genderless, that makes her a normal autobot, in a fem chasis and female voice, boy won't hot rod be surprised... Or springer. Thank god for this. That ISN'T G1 toon. But again NEITHER IS THE MOVIE.

As I stated.
Movie-verse - Alien race who's building blocks of life are metallic alloys. The allspark simply gave them 'life', as similiar to how whatever jumpstarted our primordial evolution, or if you will 'god's touch'.

Comic/Toon - Machines Created for a purpose then either lost that purpose or rebeled against their creators/Captors. Quints or Primus. Either way, they were created for a purpose and gained sentience.

Even some of the most simplistic creatures on earth are engendered. Insects, fruit flies, and more, even look at varied birthing process on earth, from mammalian, to marsupual, to even fish eggs(large quantities), chicken eggs(lower quantities). And this is simply what's on earth. So why wouldn't a far more advanced Alien Race have similiar or their own form? Or for that matter, their own form of wild life of their world?

(A notion I didn't think of before, while yeah the allspark made them wake screaming, what if that really WAS a cybertronian rabbit? Have we ever seen a petro rabbit either? xD )

The other reason I single out the polarity in sparks to fembots, is it prevents beings like megatron from simply bolstering his ranks himself, by constant 'shared processes' with his most revered commanders. But then again, as stated without knowing what 'shared processes' would really mean on their world, it may be considered taboo or in somes eyes 'disgusting to share systems with others'.

God, I just hope we don't get a BB joke saying "Hey baby, your OS plug and play?"

 

I've nitpicked the movie, and as far as plot holes go. There really aren't any that aren't solved by actually reading up on what they're using hardware wise or more. Let alone the wealth of information available in prequel stuff. The only real plot holes, is the secretary of defense commenting to maggie about the brain to mouth thing. As that scene in it's entirety prior, was cut, and Sam having to tell Jazz to backup when BB is crawling forward (which can be attributed to shock on the nature of "Holy crap, the decepticons aren't holding back at all" compared to the battles in space in the prequel novel, or he could have been distracted 'scanning' for more decepticons, or simply waiting covertly to keep his element of surprise, so even this 'glitch' has actual reasoning behind it for the battlefield). Everything else is exactly as it's supposed to be, and will either be explained later, or assumes fans can actually think or do research and don't have to be babied through the story (which I greatly admire the brass balls that took to do it that way, lucky for me I'm a detail oriented person, I can catch the subtleties, and implications through camera techniques and scene order).

The Allspark itself even the Cybertronians don't know of it's origins, after all, it is what 'brought them to life'. Which as I stated before, bares a striking resemblance to the Obelisk that gave life and gained worship before being fought over and destroyed in many scifi stories.

Calling a movie ******ed without support, well no one can defend against that opinion as no one can see what you say is ******ed about it. So therefore, it kind of nulls the point of your statement.

 

I'd like to see Arcee in Transformers 2, but only if she has an origin like her U.K. Marvel origin wherein the Autobots build her as a good-will gesture towards human. Only difference is I'd have it that Mikaela gets crushed (somehow) and Arcee is built to house her brain! Think of the love-triangle that'd come about when Bumblebee decides he's got the hots for Mikaela-Arcee!

 

I honestly couldn't care less whether she's in the sequel or not, regardless of her gender/traits. I'm just happy there's going to be a sequel.

And the only plothole that bothered me was the Allspark collapsing in on itself, when Bay and co. specifically said there would be no mass-shifting or other nonsense. The walls of the large Allspark would have to be thinner than the Phantom Zone glass from Superman: The Movie, and a bitch and a half for Sam to carry in the compacted size. Sam moved around with it like it was made from styrofoam or reinforced cardboard.

I'm surprised no one has made any comments about seamen being all over (and in) her. 

 

Yeah but Sunstreaker and Sideswipe are lot more ruthless and violent then the others!

 

Back on the notion of the allspark and fembots. Consider this.
The cellphone scene, the cellphone is essentially the 'egg'.
The allspark is what seeds life into the egg, but without direction it simply comes in chaotic. What if some fembots are used to direct that power on cybertron? Essentially midwives.

Even the robotic planet that Unicron ate in the original film, had fembots and even childbots.

But I do agree, transformers slash is a bit sickening, I just think we shouldn't belittle them as an alien race with their own lush world history. Just 'building' a new bot feels so unnatural, even for aliens that are mettalic and mechanical in nature. How would it gain it's spark? It's sentience? (Barring Mikaela brain transplant.) Then there's also the regenerative properties (minor but still) the characters show, similiar to human skin. Frenzy sure screamed like he felt the cuts Mikaela was making on a physical level.

As a side note, I'm just tossing out the midwives idea, I personally dislike it as much as I dislike the notion of genderless cybertronians. To me it just screams Transvestibots or Transgenderformers for them to be genderless, and that's not what drew me in about transformers. The implications of what these beings are did, the fact that this is something so alien to our understanding and world that we have zero comprehension of how their world or technology works, that they are sentient, living breathing beings of a race of pure metallic alloys and other parts that we essentially use in PCs because that's all this planet had for building blocks of life on a world so harsh nothing organic could survive for long.

All I'm saying is it'd be lazy for the writers to take the cop out and simply go, all bots have no gender. Not only that, but it would create more headache than it's worth later if they do decide to entail the Arcee relationships as seen previously. Springer and Hot Rod will be in for an interesting surprise (ZOMG you're data port is the same as mine, how do we interface?). xD

It's just the seperation between the two in cybertronian standards should be different, while not necisarily by aesthetics, it should be something more internal that can't be 'directly copied'. Keep in mind, Men and women of earth have many differences besides JUST appearance and reproduction. Why must we assume the fembots must adhere to earthly standards of those two notions? A guy wearing a dress, is still a guy wearing a dress. That doesn't make him female. Or in this manner, a pink autobot with curves doesn't mean fembot, it could just be a pink autobot with curves. Or for that matter an effeminate autobot. what makes a fembot a fembot? Just simply looking female? The comics are what makes this notion confusing, in which, I'm sticking to G1 continuity on Fembots, as it seemed to make it highly clear that many of the G1 crew had Fembots back home. And as I stated before, Pax had a girlfriend.

It gave sentience to an entire planet, should we even bother trying to explain what else it can do? xD I say just let that one go, as it's the allspark, it's like trying to explain all the events of the bible in scientific manor, though you may get far, sooner or later you are going to hit spots where you're just reaching for rationale. xD

Having it be the only mass-shifter to me made sense in that regard though. And also helped explain why whenever sam tripped it sparked everything to life, as in its compacted form, it's bursting from all it's energy at the seems. I think of the cube as the container of that energy, and while it may shift in whatever mathematical pattern it can, it's still confined within that cube as its vessel. A celestial conduit if you will. Maybe all that's left of Primus's spark after the first battle with unicron? (If movie goers can handle a planet devouring cloud, why not a planet devouring planet? Or planet sized Transformers?)

 

UMMMMM, that sounds sadistic. 

Whos wass talking about gobots? Seriesly! Just cause Simon said that he thinks they have no gender doesn't mean that that they don't ! It really doesn't have nothing to do with nothing! They're robots! If they refer to eachother as he then that means they're a he. When Optimus said brother don't think hes taliking to a he?

I agree 100%! But in a movie, I don't know.

 

The brother is an interesting note as well to gender definitions. Ops could have phrased it in many a fashion to not need the gender pronoun, yet he had the direct iteration from cybertronian, without need of adjustment to this language. It also does help explain the fact that BB knew of romance & trying to keep sam with mikaela, and Ratchet of Biology, maturity and mating. But they are in the middle of a war, so there's not exactly time to ponder about old flames. Especially considering without the allspark their world is dying. Now they have a new world, and the war is 'over', now we may start hearing more about this lush history and culture they may have.

Many fans feel furman is the end all to TF definitions and stories, while I agree with him on points, I disagree on others as well to his views. Sadly, he's the one though that writes the comic bible's essentially. So while he's king of the comics, that doesn't speak for film or toon though either.

 

Is it wrong to enjoy a movie in the name of entertainment now? I'm not sure why you used quotation marks.

 

cheers to you fit for natalie......
that's the way to handle this... we prolly shouldn't analyse a fictional world too much.......

 

I remember the Machine Men... my Cy-Kill and Tank were actually from the Machine Men line! But yes... Diaclone and MachineRobo certainly aren't Transformers and Gobots. All I'm saying is that Gobots hit first (though I didn't know that Hasbro was "in discussion" earlier than Tonka... probably close enough to the same time to discount either line being a derivative of the other), and wasn't in any sense a "knock-off" line. Gobots get little respect... at least afford them that small dignity.  

Well, no. Furman didn't write for the Transformers Universe... that would be Bob Budiansky and a couple of others. But I think he did write the story about Arcee being introduced as a PR liaison for Earth.

I disagree... G1 is not only the TV show, nor is it only the Marvel comic. It's also Tech Specs, Japanese versions, UK series, etc etc...

You seem to be deciding for yourself that Orion Pax and Elita-1 are somehow MORE canon than other stuff that contradicts them. That's a pretty subjective reading of canon, IMHO. And if DW and IDW are considered canon, that muddies the waters even further! Basically, the G1 canon is royally FUBAR, so fans generally pick and choose what they like from the mix. Doesn't make one necessarily more accurate than another, though I could argue that the more diverse sources agree on certain points, the more credence those points gain. Marvel G1 and Marvel UK at least agree on the "femininity" of Fembots being purely cosmetic.

They won't be surprised because they're never going to look inside her chassis expecting to get lucky, because TFs don't have sex. Because they are physically genderless. This isn't the Transformers Crying Game here. You can't be a trannie if there's no opposite gender!  

Sure... Dreamworks could really do whatever they want. We're arguing here purely in the theoretical domain, naturally. We both obviously have our feelings on how we want it to be.

For the exact reason that they are an Advanced Alien Race. Earth standards mean nothing. And let's not forget that many simplistic creatures on Earth are also NON-gendered. The notion of non-gendered species is not unknown in science OR science fiction.

Plus, the fact that they are machines complicates it further, with the possibility of industrial manufacturing, assembly, duplication. "Living", sentient, mechanical beings leaves the playing field open for a LOT of possibilities beyond the ol' human male/female binary reproduction!

That's a great thought! What do we really know about cybertronian fauna? Nothing besides they seem to be "teched-up" versions of Earth fauna... petro-rabbits, turbo-foxes, moose-bots (apparently they have ailerons!).

Y'know what? As a science-fiction property, let's face it... TF is a crappy canon. It never answers any of the questions that are most important from the point of view of serious sci-fi. TF writers often take "shortcuts" by modelling TF life on contemporary Earth life, rather than actually coming up with workable science-fiction explanations. This is why we have things like Lithonian "children" in the '86 movie, and Wheelie for example. Do TFs have "children"?

Well, we need some for the plot... so NOW they do! How convenient!

The IDW Megatron:Origin series is guilty of this too... I like it, but it still bugs me how life and culture on Cybertron in the "golden age" is remarkably similar to economics, politics and urban life in Earth's 20th century North America. Not really working very hard on that one, are they?  

Sure, we look for more depth because we're fans... but you really can't dig very deep before it falls apart like the house of cards it is. Cards from different decks even... I think there are even some UNO cards thrown in there, just to make things wacky.  

Right! That's one way of looking at it. Or maybe the act of generating a new Spark weakens the progenitors... the creation of new life comes with a cost? I guess this is where the Sparks (souls) can come in... which is sort of a necessary element. When science fails you, metaphysics provide... at least in science-fantasy fiction.  

Megatron can't duplicate an army of Soundwaves simply because Soundwave only has one Spark. Megatron could build a robot that looks like Soundwave, but it wouldn't be him. Only a Spark can give a transformer true life... but then, where do those Sparks come from?

A mommy Fembot and an Autobot daddy? A simplistic explanation, yes... but I don't like it.

Again, we're back to the Transvestibots. It occurs to me that you wouldn't find this idea so disturbing if you weren't already invested in the idea of male/female TF relations. I'm sorry to be sly, but your comments beg a question...

If the concept of genderless alien robots threatens the appeal of TFs for you, what DID draw you in to Transformers? Hot Fembot-on-Autobot sex?  

With no genders, there are no trannies, just Cybertronian biology... and this doesn't necessarily need to be polluted with typical human concepts like "love" or "sex" or "gender". Assuming that 2 TFs are even capable of making a new TF on their own, it can be viewed as simply 2 sentient machines making a new machine. You can leave the trannies out of it... unless you're unhealthily preoccupied with them of course. Har!

On a totally different path, I like the idea that there are many different ways a Cybertronian life form can come to pass. Maybe Spark crystals are gathered from special locations or created out of rare materials, and placed somewhere that the Spirit of Primus imbues them with life? Then the imbued Spark crystals might be shipped off to a manufacturing plant where they are inserted in protoforms, complete with hardware and programming... the programming may determine what your capabilities are, but your Spark determines what kind of "person" you are... and maybe how effective you manage your body's resources as well. Or maybe two TFs might decide to pair up to encode a new program and, at a personal cost, imbue a Spark Crystal with essences of both their Sparks... which will result in a new, unique Spark. Or what about TF reincarnation... when a TF gets so old, he decides to willingly recycle his Spark? It would be almost like a complete reformat of a computer. Same spark, but potentially totally different programming, hardware and "OS". Different personality traits could surface, and the new entity might decide he'd rather play for the other team.  

Or maybe the Matrix does it.

Or it could be that the linguistic default that TFs adopted to refer to themselves among humans is the male identifier, despite their having no actual gender of their own. After all, while it's better than most languages, English still isn't all that easy to speak while maintaining absolute gender neutrality.

Heh heh... I was actually talking with a friend about this last week. We agreed that the most awesome thing ever would have been if Prime had said "I'm sorry... sister."

Talk about a paradigm shift! I can't help but giggle just to imagine the shitstorm of fan reaction that would have caused.  

zmog

 

Nah... it's just that the film is a bottomless pit of sloppy writing and filmmaking, and digging into it will only depress me more. Retconning can try to work around some of the gaps in the film's logic, but I remain unconvinced on the whole. I took my sideways shots at the movie here, but to go in depth would not only be outside of the constraints of this thread, but also probably drive me insane.  

All true, though I confess that while I didn't like it much, I accepted the McGuffin Box (sorry... Allspark)'s mass-shifting tricks as part of it's entirely metaphysical, mythic origins. It's basically a magical god box (in that technology of a high enough level appears to be "magic" to our eyes), so I guess it can do whatever the hell it wants (or whatever the the hell Sam wants it to do, apparently). I accept that explanation, so I guess it's not an "error"... but I still think it's lame, unnecessary and awkward in the context of the film. You can always explain away problems with bad writing... but it doesn't necessarily make them not problems anymore.  

It's not that we watch movies for entertainment's sake... it's that we only ask to be entertained, and nothing more. I mean, a movie (even a mass-entertainment movie) should be art on some level. I find that too often, when people talk of being "entertained" they are actually referring to being distracted from engaging their brains. Having worked in a video store, I can't tell you how often the phrase "I don't want to think tonight." gets thrown around... as if thinking hurts or is hard or something. Sad.

Meanwhile, I can be entertained by watching a toddler fall downstairs, but it's not necessarily culturally redeeming.

er... bad example. ahem  


zmog

 

...hehe i see your point....... the culture nowadays seems to be that more violence or idiocy = higher ratings.......

that's why i like Dr.Who........ thought continuity problems crop up with almost every scifi flick.....

Transformers, Star Wars/Trek, used to be the domain of us geeks.... but with the advent of the internet and with the rise of geek culture being hip...... wth am i saying... i lost the thread there....

I say... if you want thinking.... i'll go grab a Sheldon novel.....

 

Mass Shifting................For the AllSpark. It maybe able to control and use some laws of physics that typical TF can not readily master.
Mass can be converted to energy & energy to matter.
Maybe the AllSpark was mostly empty space and just folded it's self down to true size?