Antman and Mass-Shifting

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Lovecraft, Apr 23, 2020.

  1. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Furm-inated

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    Since the moviegoing public has accepted that Antman can mass-shift, I reckon the public is ready for some G1 Decepticons.

    Particularly in regards to Soundwave and his cassettes. There's some reasoning beyond the mass-shifting debacle why Megatron probably won't be a gun, but Soundwave isn't really Soundwave without capturing his 80s self.

    I'd love to see a Marvel Type Soundwave, career advisor to many Decepticon leaders not Megatron's personal bootlicker. Likewise, I'd like to see his mind-reading and espionage capabilities be central to his story role.

    Perhaps when Starscream and his Seekers make noise that keep the humans and Autobots occupied, Soundwave and his team could use the opportunity (and mass-shifting G1 Style) to gather real intelligence on S7, Earth's resources, what happened to the 3 Decepticons already sent there, and Megatron if he is indeed frozen. He can confer with Shockwave, who probably doesnt want Megatron back in the picture, and undercut Starscream's own ambitions, eventually making the decision that he feels is best for the Decepticons and therefore Cybertron.

    Soundwave deserves a true renaissance in classic form on center stage imo.
     
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  2. Novaburnhilde

    Novaburnhilde シン・ブリュンヒルド

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    I totally agree, and I don't really have an issue with mass-shifting just being a part of their internal technology. Perhaps it comes at some cost / detriment so it's not advisable but useful in certain scenarios.

    I also very much agree about Marvel Soundwave who was closer to his tech spec concept, he may appear to be super loyal on the surface but he's mostly an opportunistic snitch who manages to keep high positions of power due to his creepy mind-reading abilities. While I think there's more that can be done with 'blindly loyal to Megs' SW, I'd like to see something a bit closer to his original characterization. Prime kinda played with this, how Soundwave was feared due to being like the Big Brother of the Decepticons, but I think they can go farther with that.
     
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  3. Music

    Music Primetimus Prime

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    I'm an advocate for creating things that are closer to the source material (loved the designs in Bumblebee), however, I disagree that we need to have mass shifting. Transformers is one of those properties that I like when it adheres to science fiction rather than fantasy. Of course something like this won't exist in real life, however, they're still believable enough to make sense of something like this is somewhat possible of existing. This is pretty much equivalent to the mecha argument of super robot vs real robot, and at least with the live action property, I'd like Transformers to side with real robot. Plus, it breaks a bit of logic you expect like big vehicles turning into bigger robots, etc. You take that out and it's a little less fun for me. It also makes worse toys scale-wise.

    Soundwave needs to look like Soundwave, however, it's not necessary for him to turn into a cassette player as long as he transforms into something that adheres to his identity.
     
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  4. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP Be strong enough to be gentle

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    The issue is that Antman's entire gimmick is mass-shifting. It's what the character is about, shrinking and growing, and the movies were based on establishing and exploring that singular concept. Transformers on the other hand uses mass-shifting purely as an explanation/excuse for why giant robots can turn into non-giant things. It's not so much that the concept is unbelievable, anything's believable in the right context, but that it's just plain silly to watch when it's so obviously a cop-out in this regard. It removes the need for alt mode variety and vehicle modes that otherwise match a character's size, and makes things inconsistent. If Soundwave can mass-shift to be an infiltrator, then why can't Bumblebee or Optimus shrink to toy-size to sneak into places? The entire race is built on disguise and infiltration, so it seems logically unsound that this ability would be simultaneously commonplace yet restricted to a few certain individuals.

    I think this is why you see mass-shifting as an ability phased out of a lot of series even before the movies, because it's contrary to the entire gimmick. Especially since we have small Transformers who don't mass-shift, as well as deployer drones and stuff like that. It'd make more sense visually and narratively for Soundwave to deploy a smaller Transformer to act on his behalf whilst hidden somewhere else.
     
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  5. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Dukeup Nukhead

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    That is absolutely absurd. Soundwave turning into a tape deck is probably the most disposable aspect of the character that is easily worked around if you consider all he has to do is turn into a box that can be used for espionage purposes.

    FBI vans, news trucks, hell even a panel van from some fictional internet provider company (I see these all the time on my commute).

    As long as Soundwave is a big boxy robot with the visor/mouthplate face combo, can launch minions from his chest (bonus points if he has to press a tab on his shoulder), has the vocoder voice, and is colored blue/silver, that covers everything he needs to be to invoke what people loved about the original.

    The problem with the tape deck mode is that it's fairly useless when it comes to mobility - the majority of the time all it does is make him stationary. Sure, people wouldn't notice a walkman even today, but this isn't exciting for a movie about robots since you have to explain how exactly he GOT somewhere without being noticed. There was one scene in the G1 cartoon where he was flying as a tape deck and it is one of the dumbest looking things ever.

    Even the first film, which had a transformer turn into boombox, showed how limited it was - Frenzy was able to use his Boombox mode to escape detection when he broke into and hacked Air Force One, but he had to physically walk from the plane to Barricade.

    Now, a high-intensity chase scene where Soundwave pulls in front of an autobot on the highway, throws open the back of his alt. mode, and Ravage leaps out to attack? THAT is keeping in the spirit of 80s Soundwave while making it more modern and exciting.

    Well, not only that, but it's just trying to keep to the dated restrictions of the old series forced by a limited selection of designs. It's much easier to find suitable counterparts for alt. modes that keep in the spirit of the original alt. modes while ditching the mass shifting.

    Soundwave? As mentioned, some kind of truck with communication equipment in it. His minions could be the equipment inside of it.

    Megatron? A tank is basically a big gun on treads that can be compared to an unstopable monster.

    Reflector? Unmanned Recon camera drones.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2020
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  6. cybeast

    cybeast Well-Known Member

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    Considering the way The Twins changed from combined ice cream truck into two full sized car, I don't see how Mass Shifting is not already a thing in Movieverse anyway.

    Edit: And to make it less of an obvious cop-out, you can go like "Some Bot do have unique abilities", in Soundwave's case, it's mass-shifting.

    Would go well too if we know the other's unique abilities (can be tied to Bee's cubix mode too, or why some Transformers can be triple changer).
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2020
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  7. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP Be strong enough to be gentle

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    Because there's a difference between cheating mass and changing mass. One is a visual cheat to fudge something smaller into something bigger and vice-versa, but the character and the components of their body/alt mode are not changing size between forms. (unless you're Lockdown or Evasion Op, but that whole movie was a massive piece of shit and everyone hates it)

    The other takes a robot who, by all visual cues of his robot mode, should turn into a tape player the size of a school bus, but visibly shrinks via magic, rather than nebulous compression of parts or something akin to that. That's a tougher sell than a visual cheat to make a four tonne robot squish into a three tonne car.
     
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  8. cybeast

    cybeast Well-Known Member

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    The Twins did change size though... I mean, from one Ice Cream Truck into two full sized cars...
     
  9. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP Be strong enough to be gentle

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    But they very obviously reformatted. Their robot modes didn't change size, so I don't see what you're getting at here. Plus their robot modes are clearly the same size as the cars they scan, so they're not mass-shifting between modes when they transform that time.

    If any mass-shifting is going on it's from ice cream truck mode to robot mode, but again, that's not mass-shifting because the truck mode parts stay the same size between modes, we're just expected to believe their robot modes can condense into that small of a vehicle.

    Again, mass-shifting is like the OP describes: actual shrinking and growing in size by several hundred times, not just visual trickery to make slightly larger 'bots fit into slightly smaller cars. I feel like I already explained this. :confused: 
     
  10. AutobotAvalanche

    AutobotAvalanche Number One in Boogieland Moderator

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    My problem with the twins is that whichever one was the back end seemed to be just the walls and back chassis of the truck, we saw it when they split apart. It looked really hollow and flimsy. Never got how that one was as big as the one that had the whole engine and front section to work with.
     
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  11. Prime Noble

    Prime Noble Well-Known Member

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    Didn't the Allspark mass shift in the 07 movie?

    If the movie going public can accept the sodding Harry Potter movies and Twilight, they can accept mass shifting in Transformers.

    Hell, they accepted robots with hair and buck teeth in the Baymovies!
     
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  12. Rumblestorm

    Rumblestorm Well-Known Member

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    The Allspark is also a godly mcguffin that can create life. If it wanted to shrink to the size of an atom it could do it. As for the actual chatacters, it makes no sense as to why they should have the same power.
    The hair and buck teeth isn't even on the same league as what you are talking about.
     
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  13. Prime Noble

    Prime Noble Well-Known Member

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    I'm so tired of people on this site thinking their opinion is the be all and end all.

    It makes no sense for the characters created by said godly Mcguffin to shrink down? No less sense than the godly Mcguffin itself to shrink down.

    Maybe the hair and buck teeth thing isn't in the same league but it's all ridiculous. The teeth and hair look ridiculous to me.

    I need a break from this site. I'm tired of the hostility and pettiness. We're talking about toys at the end of the day. If we're all getting riled up over works of fiction, it's not healthy for any of us. Hobbies are supposed to be fun.
     
  14. Rumblestorm

    Rumblestorm Well-Known Member

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  15. ObakaChanTachi

    ObakaChanTachi Pancakes!

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    All the season 1 G1 Decepticon alt-modes sans Seekers were awful and rightfully got improved upon in future series. I wouldn't go back to something that I don't like because "it came first".
     
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  16. Lovecraft

    Lovecraft Furm-inated

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    Did none of you enjoy Soundwave at all in G1 or what? Nothing about Transformers makes any sense. Let it rip with the absurdity.
     
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  17. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Dukeup Nukhead

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    You are acting like the tape deck mode is the only defining trait about Soundwave - the better question is, if Soundwave was designed now, what would his alt. mode be?

    It wouldn't be some dinky box playing outdated music media storage. That's just not exciting in the context of a narrative and functionally is dumb.

    Not to mention people are kinda sick of the rampant G1-true updating - I do find it strange that usual crowd who whine about too much G1 seem to be specifically avoiding this thread, though.
     
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  18. Moy

    Moy Constructicons!

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  19. Gumblor Gimbles

    Gumblor Gimbles Norn' Ironhide

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    Can Soundwave not just turn into a supercomputer or something? Were it not for his presence in Bumblebee, I’d have him be on earth for a while longer than the other Decepticons, justifying his room-sized, outdated altmode.
     
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  20. Rumblestorm

    Rumblestorm Well-Known Member

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    His mind is already a supercomputer. :lol 
    Him turning into one would be redundant.
     
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