After PPG How do you feel about Daring Escape?

Discussion in 'Transformers Trading Card Game (TCG) Discussion' started by That Guy, Nov 24, 2019.

  1. That Guy

    That Guy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Posts:
    4,199
    News Credits:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    232
    Likes:
    +2,189
    I talked with people about this one for a bit offline. But I do have an issue with the card. In a game where you can't interact with your opponents turn, alternate win conditions like DE really can turn the game into a solitaire race.
     
  2. Wreckgar

    Wreckgar Anthony Stark Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2003
    Posts:
    9,118
    News Credits:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    347
    Likes:
    +610
    I have no issue with the card based on basic math. If you have a 40 card deck and 5 wide deck, it would take you 3 and a half rounds to pull this off. And that’s with no one getting killed and getting the card all 3 times each turn.
    The other option is putting as many cards in your hand at once which can be system rebooted or Fixit-ed
     
  3. That Guy

    That Guy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Posts:
    4,199
    News Credits:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    232
    Likes:
    +2,189
    You might have missed some of the more recent decklists. There's combos that can go off and draw all your cards turn 2 of the game.
     
  4. CybertronianFan

    CybertronianFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2013
    Posts:
    8,622
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    242
    Likes:
    +2,439
    Unchanged. It's a strong card, but too conditional. As strong as that deck appeared, there are counters for it. It caught people off guard, but was telegraphed enough that some were ready for it. Shocky deck still proves to be the tougher contender.
     
  5. That Guy

    That Guy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Posts:
    4,199
    News Credits:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    232
    Likes:
    +2,189
    I guess I'm less conscerned with the strength of the card than the "unfun-ness" of watching your opponent work through their combo for 15-20 minutes. I'd actually be more ok if it was 100% consistent to pull off in a combo. So your opponent can just show their hand and say "I'll cycle like this and win" and then you can go to game 2 or 3 instead of having to watch the solitaire play in case their combo doesn't go off.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Wreckgar

    Wreckgar Anthony Stark Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2003
    Posts:
    9,118
    News Credits:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    347
    Likes:
    +610
    I have completely missed that. Is it on Vector Sigma?
     
  7. That Guy

    That Guy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Posts:
    4,199
    News Credits:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    232
    Likes:
    +2,189
    There's been a couple versions around. I don't know that Vector Sigma posted their version yet, but Kent Sumerour showcased his at PPG.
     
  8. DrTraveler

    DrTraveler Wheeljack, Wheeljack, Wheeljack

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
    Posts:
    4,094
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Likes:
    +3,449
    Ebay:
    I don't think it's a problem yet. I would agree they should change the rules on requipping items so they don't retrigger. They do that, it won't be an issue as the degenerate forms of the deck rely on that to go off fast.

    I think if we can't have an alternate win condition be created without the world ending, then this game has bigger structural problems. If all this game can be is crashing character cards into each other, it isn't going to last in the long run.
     
  9. agp

    agp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2012
    Posts:
    1,662
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    197
    Likes:
    +845
    Where is ppg posting tournament results and decklists?
     
  10. agp

    agp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2012
    Posts:
    1,662
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    197
    Likes:
    +845
    answered my own question. Vector Sigma has the top 8 deck lists. PPG should be posting on their website, it would be good for traffic.

    @Wreckgar and @CybertronianFan listen to the beginning of vector sigma's latest podcast, they go over what happened in Dallas in pretty good detail.

    I have a big problem with the card if it made the top 8 at a serious tournament. On the vector sigma podcast they said it went undefeated in the swiss rounds and lost to Blaster with turbo board in the top 8. I haven't analysed the deck but they're saying it won some games on their first turn with a peace through tyranny. The opponent never had a chance to play one battle card. Turbo board is really the only way to counter the deck. The performance of the deck has wrecked the meta because you have to side turbo board.

    I have a big problem with solitaire type decks in any game. The only skill involved with the decks is the initial creation of the list and loop you have play. There is typically no decision making besides play my loop. Card games are a battle of deck building and in game decision making. Solitaire decks take away the in game decision making because you are playing towards one loop and can't really make a wrong decision. Once the solitaire decks go viral every hack that doesn't have the skill to make the right in game decisions jumps on them. I don't have a problem with any alternate win conditions as long players are truly interacting and have the decision making battle.

    EDIT
    I wouldn't be surprised if there is a banning/rule change before PAX
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Carnage73

    Carnage73 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2017
    Posts:
    955
    News Credits:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    142
    Likes:
    +229
    Ebay:
    Twitter:
    Don't Secret Actions interact with your opponent's turn?
     
  12. agp

    agp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2012
    Posts:
    1,662
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    197
    Likes:
    +845
    They do, but I think he meant play on your opponents turn. A secret action isn't the same as being able to counter spell in magic. Regardless, this deck can win without opponent being able to play a card from hand.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. That Guy

    That Guy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Posts:
    4,199
    News Credits:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    232
    Likes:
    +2,189
    Here is Kent's article talking about his deck.

    Daring Escape by Kent Summerour
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. CybertronianFan

    CybertronianFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2013
    Posts:
    8,622
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    242
    Likes:
    +2,439
    Yeah, decks like that are annoying and a detriment to a game like this. But it is beatable. Turbo Board does a hell of a job slowing it down, in addition to TB, Hijack and Jam Signals help towards this as well.

    If Turbo Board were a crappy card, I'd agree with you more. However, such isn't the case.

    As mentioned above, decks like this are not healthy for the game. Worse yet, every netdecking twit will copy it simply cause (one of the main reasons why I never share my competitive deck concepts online). Concerning the banning/rule change. There is no doubt one is coming. I really hope WotC goes for a rule change stating upgrades cannot re-trigger when moved from one character to another (heck they can un-ban Swap Parts in the process). If they ban yet *another* card, I'll quit the game. I fucking hated that stupid shit they do with MtG's Standard. It was the main reason I quit playing Magic the Gathering. They adopt that mantra in this game too instead of learning their lessons and play-test lengthly and correctly and also develop this game differently than MtG, then it will be my sign to leave this game too.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  15. agp

    agp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2012
    Posts:
    1,662
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    197
    Likes:
    +845
    Read the whole thing and yikes, wotc needs to do something before pax.

    Read his article. It's really not beatable. He lost because he screwed up. If something isn't done or a 50% counter found pax is going to be a sea of daring escape and turbo board.

    Wizards ought to hire this Kent guy as a playtester because they really can't see these horrible combos.
     
  16. CybertronianFan

    CybertronianFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2013
    Posts:
    8,622
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    242
    Likes:
    +2,439
    Read the article and I do not agree with his assessment regarding Equipment Enthusiast. The deck works very well without it. I also played this and another variant of a DE deck heavily yesterday with my local group (where we learned that EE wasn't the key to the deck. Like Red Heat, it makes the deck run more smoothly, but EE isn't crucial). What will kill this deck will be WotC implementing a rule that Upgrades do not re-trigger when moved around. That solves it all.

    When we play-tested yesterday, we lost to the deck the first few games. But adjusting sideboards changed all that. The deck *is* beatable. Don't get me wrong, it is impressively effective but only due to Upgrade re-triggers. Despite this, we found ways around it. Towards the end of the night the games won vs lost against that deck started becoming greater.

    No disagreement here. I completely L O A T H E WotC's play-test team. If I could share the arguments I used to have with that team back in the day I would gladly post them. They were LEGENDARY. They rush it too much and do not think outside the box at all. Been offering to have a non-WotC team playtest for them for decades now. They had one for MtG and have no clue what happened to them because their current team that play tests their Standard format is garbage. I hope they (WotC) considers a non-WotC group to play test for them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  17. That Guy

    That Guy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Posts:
    4,199
    News Credits:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    232
    Likes:
    +2,189
  18. Carnage73

    Carnage73 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2017
    Posts:
    955
    News Credits:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    142
    Likes:
    +229
    Ebay:
    Twitter:
    When does the ban on Multi-Mission Gear go into effect?
     
  19. agp

    agp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2012
    Posts:
    1,662
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    197
    Likes:
    +845
    Immediately
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. CybertronianFan

    CybertronianFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2013
    Posts:
    8,622
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    242
    Likes:
    +2,439
    A ridiculous ban. They don't want upgrades to re-trigger? Make a game rule that upgrades only trigger upon going onto the battlefield (i.e. not when moved around). Want to keep upgrade re-triggers? Errata MMG to say it doesn't re-trigger when it gets moved around. NEWP! they have to Ban(daid) everything ... :mad: :mad: