15 year old killed by police over pellet gun.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Zero Prime, Jan 15, 2006.

  1. Predaking

    Predaking Well-Known Member

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    I can see your point. I am not a therapist nor do I want to be. I guess I am just not sympathetic to the parents' plight. Maybe this whole tragedy could be avoided if that kid can just let them what's bothering him and allow himself to be treated by therapist but we'll never know.
     
  2. Jux

    Jux Please, call me Steve. Veteran

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    I did read what you said. It's not logical. Let me tell you why.

    Negotiators were on the scene, along with SWAT officers. A SWAT officer is typically fully armed, and I doubt his first choice of weaponry is a tazer.

    Now, let's say you're trying to negotiate the kid into surrendering and putting the gun down (i.e, the period prior to the kid pointing the gun at someone). Do you take the chance of tazing him and having him shoot? A taze does not guarantee the release of the weapon, or incapacitation of the subject. In fact, many people here have complained when police taze individuals, one aspect of it being that it could take SEVERAL tazes to fully incapacitate and subdue someone. The bottom line is, a tazer is not guaranteed, and when it's a situation that calls for SWAT, the life and safety of the criminal becomes the lowest priority.

    No, in a situation like this, you have your negotiators try to talk him down, but the instant another officers life is directly threatened, you take the shot without hesitation. Like I said earlier, the minute this kid started waving around what appeared to be a loaded weapon, he waived all access to non-lethal alternatives.
     
  3. The_Bardock

    The_Bardock ****** of the Minicons

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    I would say have 1 officer try to taze him while another officer is ready to fire incase it doesn't work and he then goes pointing his gun at them. I would argue though that 1 taze would probably be enough for a 15 year old kid. Also your arguement of non lethal alernatives being waved as soon as someone waves a weapon around goes against one of the reasons they are made in the first place.

    (sorry if this turns into a double post I got a page error when i first tried to submit)
     
  4. Wing alpha

    Wing alpha <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and

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    Wrong
    "Killing is not as easy as the inocent believes."-Albus Dumbledore

    worse if its young
     
  5. Cobalt Agent

    Cobalt Agent My dick kills dinosaurs

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    No... no I'm pretty sure I'd be quite content.
     
  6. Dragonclaw

    Dragonclaw Comic Ink - Dublin, CA

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    I feel for the parents, I really do, but I totally side with the SWAT team here. In this day and age the last thing police can let happen is another Columbine, had they not shot the child they would have been lambasted (and sued) for failing to act had any students been killed. You cannot take the word of the parents that "he PROBABLY didn't have a real gun". Especially with people at the school talking about him having a deathwish. Lots of red flags there that the parents may be wrong...dead wrong, and again SWAT cannot take that chance. Could you imagine the press conference the next day if 12 students were dead and the chief said "Well, we thought it was just a pellet gun" There would be unbelievable outrage at the loss of life due to a "bumbling" SWAT team. Instead when faced with a suicidal gunman the officer did the ONLY thing he could, he shot and killed the child. A descision the parents and the officer have to live with for the rest of their lives.
    I see this as a faliure, but not of the officer. The parents, his friends, and the school failed this troubled child. But telling any of them that wont help any...The parents need time to grieve, but they don't deserve any $$$, especially from the police who did their duty in protecting the lives of the students in the building, the administration, and their own.
     
  7. jet convoy

    jet convoy Beast Wars Forever!!!

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    Man, I don't know anything about police or SWAT tactics but why taze the kid and take the risk of his hand contracting and shooting the cop? I say the SWAT guy did the right thing.

    Its fucked up for the parents, but the kid was asking for it.
     
  8. Wing alpha

    Wing alpha <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and

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    I think Jux and you are comming from two different points of view. In a way the way some see the things in an idealistic way, as In there is alwayas a better way than straigth to the kill , "kill or be killed" is not the way .

    While Jux comes from the point of view where when you are out there you are with the responsability of save lifes, 1 life could save lets say a dozen, a small number can make a HUGE difference.

    while I pointed out that I wished it was posible for him to blow the guns out of the hands of the kid (I even mentioned it was next to imposible almost)-which would take one hell of a shot, the aftershock is bound to take your aim off. also the target is too small and as mentioned they are trained to target the chest because is easier to hit-

    all in all I belive the swat officer did what he thougth was rigth and in the end he did what he is payed for to protect and serve....

    and yes humanity is fucked up.
     
  9. Wing alpha

    Wing alpha <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and

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    you be content of having killed a child?

    I dont think so.

    you be haunted by it.

    as I said death is something that you dont fuck arround with.
     
  10. The_Bardock

    The_Bardock ****** of the Minicons

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    Ok one last time I am talking about tazing him before the gun is pointed at someone.
     
  11. Cobalt Agent

    Cobalt Agent My dick kills dinosaurs

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    Yes. You lose the "innocent child" crap once you hold up a gun to productive members of society. Once you break that border you are no longer to be dealt with as human, not in my book.

    But thanks anyway. Thanks for assuring me what I would feel.
     
  12. Wing alpha

    Wing alpha <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and

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    my experience with a tazer shock simulation reminds me that all humans have different effects to it for example the current going can posibly tigth your muscles hence pulling the trigger- or make you drop it so is eaither and astray shot which migth hurt an inocent or drop the gun. is an all or nothing..... as jux said dont bring a knife into a gunfigth.
     
  13. Wing alpha

    Wing alpha <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and

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    I dont try to show you how you feel I speak from experience, death is something you do not fuck arround with.

    and even if he was a coward that doesnt make it any less human. And as I said killing is somthing that is not as easy as the inocent believes.
     
  14. Jux

    Jux Please, call me Steve. Veteran

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    Again - can you really afford to take that chance? Can you take the chance that a single taze could subdue him? Can you take the chance that in the moment of him being tazed, he wouldn't be able to get a shot off?

    No, you can't. Not when it's become an escalated situation where it's your life or theirs. It's unfortunate that the kid was killed, but personally, I think it would've been dangerous for the cops to sacrifice their personal safety for the sake of a non-lethal weapon that was in no ways a guaranteed solution.

    Examples:
    Source

    73%. Impressive, perhaps. But to me, it's not good enough when ensuring the lives of officers. If you were to apply that effectiveness rate to this situation, it would leave a 1 in 4 chance of failure, meaning the kid could possibly shoot and kill an officer. Acceptable?

    From the same source:

    Like I said, tasers are great tools for dealing with struggling and resisting people who could pose a potential threat. But in this situation, I don't believe it to be an effective or reliable solution, for reasons I've already stated.

    In terms of why tasers fail:

    At what distance was the SWAT officer when he fired? The taser is a great close range alternative. But in a situation like this, I don't believe it was an option. One of the leading manufacturers of Tasers advertises a effectiveness range of "up to 15 feet." Again, I believe the main question here is, can you really take that chance? The chance of failure when the lives of officers are at risk?


    Tazers are made for several things. Subduing resistors, people who are fleeing, things of that nature. I agree that they're useful tools and have helped to save lives.

    Tazers are not made for ending life threatening situations like this. It's risky, it's dangerous, and it's a luxury that officers in that position can't afford.
     
  15. Zero Prime

    Zero Prime Windows user no more

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    Like I said before, some people don't want to understand an officers job. Thats why we take so much shit. Taze a person and its "Oh my God, they were to young, or, to old." Shoot a terson to save lives and its "They should have tazed them."

    Listen and listen good. There is only one reason a gun gets pulled and waved, thats to discharge it. In a class room filled with kids who are you trying to say taze before the gun is pointed. Its already been pointed and now its time for Peter to do some work.
     
  16. The_Bardock

    The_Bardock ****** of the Minicons

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    Well we are just argueing differences of opinion so here I will just finish my part by saying yes I do think they should take that chance if there is a backup in place which is what I later started to talk about (with another officer ready to fire the lethal shot if needed). Anyways i'll leave this thread saying that option was not available it seems so the right thing was done. I like a debate and thank you Jux.
     
  17. The_Bardock

    The_Bardock ****** of the Minicons

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    Ok so I won't leave right away, from what I read he was cornered away from other kids . Also a gun can be pulled to try and scare people without discharging it.
     
  18. Cobalt Agent

    Cobalt Agent My dick kills dinosaurs

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    Maybe it's not easy for you. If it wasn't as easy as it seems, there wouldn't be nearly as many murders as there are. Morality only goes so far. I for one don't treat rapists like people simply because of their DNA. I have standards, and so does society. You don't get rewarded for threatening to take lives; you usually have yours taken. Good.
     
  19. Jux

    Jux Please, call me Steve. Veteran

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    Why do you take that chance? Cn you justify risking the lives of other law enforcement officers? In that split second between the taser and the "backup plan" you're promoting, a shot could be fired and an officer or innocent bystander could be killed.

    How do you justify that?
     
  20. TSFC

    TSFC Banned

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    Problem with that line of thinking is; when a person is mentally unstable, they don't know that they're "nuts" or abnormal, and don't want to see someone that can help them.

    They just want their mental anguish (which they don't understand, especially at his age) to go away and bother them no more. If it comes down to death being the only out, then it's the only out. Talking to someone about it will help, but they don't know that, nor do they want to talk about an issue they don't understand is there.

    It's like getting an Alcoholic or an Anorexic to admit they have a problem. Once admitted, they've made the first step towards recovery. It's a monumental task to get someone to claim they've got a problem, everyone wants to be right and no one wants to be wrong.

    He'd have never willingly told his parents he had mental issues, that's why he went to his friends, because he knew they wouldn't spill their guts. Now imagine how they feel..."I shoulda told his mom, oh God, it's my fault." Something like that will stick with them forever. I really do pity everyone in this case, the cops, victim, families...yeah.

    This was definitely a no way out situation and full of heartbreak.